pto/ slide in questions

alexcarpets

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Update.... with some questions: So, I ended up grabbing a 2023 Savana 3500 extended V6. I went to get the Apex 570 and saw the SS370 on display. I really like the narrow profile of the unit, and in discussions with some friends, I'm kind of split between the two. I would still consider the 370 with some clarity on the below questions:

  1. How much hotter does the Apex 570 get? According to Legend brands it's "significantly hotter".... but what does that mean exactly? The 370 says the thermostat can be controlled up to 250 F.... with the understanding that input water temperature, and environment factors vary, what is a reasonable wand tip temperature with the 370? I need to have a better understanding of the temp differences between the two units to make a decision.
  2. How capable is the 370 for water extraction?
  3. I'm hearing a lot of "The SS370 is a number one seller for a reason", as a reason to go with the 370 over the 570. Reliability of the 370, over the 570 is one of the main points that comes up, as well. I've heard TM's that are liquid cooled offer an additional point of failure and can therefore be less reliable? Is this true? Are coolant leaks a thing?
  4. CFM - 317 CFM (SS370) vs 450 CFM (Apex 570).... How noticeable is this in residential runs of up to 25o feet? Is this more noticeable in longer runs? Commercial settings?
  5. The price tag difference, after all is said an done, is $6k USD more for the 570. Is it worth the upgrade?
I am a startup and in talking to friends, I'm getting two perspectives, both of which seem like good viewpoints to consider. On one hand, I have those that are saying the 570 is great if you're doing more commercial and when your business grows to that level, make the upgrade at that point from the 370. On the other hand, I'm considering $6k for a more powerful unit, over the life of the machine, is not too much - but, if the 570 is less reliable and more expensive to maintain, I may shy away from it.

Any other factors that are worth considering, I would be happy to hear. At this point, I've committed a significant amount to the business and I'm trying to figure out the balance point on performance vs. $$ vs. current needs vs. long term business growth.

Ps. If easier, feel free to copy+paste my questions and provide your response in an alternate color. All of these questions are important factors for me to consider.

Edit: Machine will be used for Carpet/Tile and Restoration. All three are musts.

Thanks guys!
 
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BIG WOOD

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Update.... with some questions: So, I ended up grabbing a 2023 Savana 3500 extended V6. I went to get the Apex 570 and saw the SS370 on display. I really like the narrow profile of the unit, and in discussions with some friends, I'm kind of split between the two. I would still consider the 370 with some clarity on the below questions:

  1. How much hotter does the Apex 570 get? According to Legend brands it's "significantly hotter".... but what does that mean exactly? The 370 says the thermostat can be controlled up to 250 F.... with the understanding that input water temperature, and environment factors vary, what is a reasonable wand tip temperature with the 370? I need to have a better understanding of the temp differences between the two units to make a decision.
  2. How capable is the 370 for water extraction?
  3. I'm hearing a lot of "The SS370 is a number one seller for a reason", as a reason to go with the 370 over the 570. Reliability of the 370, over the 570 is one of the main points that comes up, as well. I've heard TM's that are liquid cooled offer an additional point of failure and can therefore be less reliable? Is this true? Are coolant leaks a thing?
  4. CFM - 317 CFM (SS370) vs 450 CFM (Apex 570).... How noticeable is this in residential runs of up to 25o feet? Is this more noticeable in longer runs? Commercial settings?
  5. The price tag difference, after all is said an done, is $6k USD more for the 570. Is it worth the upgrade?
I am a startup and in talking to friends, I'm getting two perspectives, both of which seem like good viewpoints to consider. On one hand, I have those that are saying the 570 is great if you're doing more commercial and when your business grows to that level, make the upgrade at that point from the 370. On the other hand, I'm considering $6k for a more powerful unit, over the life of the machine, is not too much - but, if the 570 is less reliable and more expensive to maintain, I may shy away from it.

Any other factors that are worth considering, I would be happy to hear. At this point, I've committed a significant amount to the business and I'm trying to figure out the balance point on performance vs. $$ vs. current needs vs. long term business growth.

Ps. If easier, feel free to copy+paste my questions and provide your response in an alternate color. All of these questions are important factors for me to consider.

Edit: Machine will be used for Carpet/Tile and Restoration. All three are musts.

Thanks guys!
Don't waste your money on the 370. It is nothing but overpromises from Sapphire. It truly does not deliver from whatever Sapphire says on their website. Sure, it might go up to 230 for a little bit. But it cannot and will not hold that temp, unless you're squirting out 2flow of water from your tool. And keep in mind, the more narrow and cramped, the harder it is to maintain. I've used and worked on both the 370 and 570. There is a big difference in performance between the two. The biggest complaint about the 570 is a temp sensor on the back of the water box and changing the blower belts. But keep in mind, one of the few things sapphire did good was put a belt coolant design on their machines, which make the belts last longer. So you shouldn't have to worry about it too much.

Sapphire needs to quit pushing that 370 and put the bigger blower on their Legend model truck mount. It's hurting those little guys who think they're saving money.

If you can't afford the 570, get the rage or price equivalent of a steam action. If you get a 370, you will be disappointed.
 
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alexcarpets

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without giving verbose answers to the above:

Get the 570 unless you are "semi-retired" or simply can't afford it starting out (understandable)
That seems to be the consensus across the board. Was just trying to get a better understanding.
 

alexcarpets

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Don't waste your money on the 370. It is nothing but overpromises from Sapphire. It truly does not deliver from whatever Sapphire says on their website. Sure, it might go up to 230 for a little bit. But it cannot and will not hold that temp, unless you're squirting out 2flow of water from your tool. And keep in mind, the more narrow and cramped, the harder it is to maintain. I've used and worked on both the 370 and 570. There is a big difference in performance between the two. The biggest complaint about the 570 is a temp sensor on the back of the water box and changing the blower belts. But keep in mind, one of the few things sapphire did good was put a belt coolant design on their machines, which make the belts last longer. So you shouldn't have to worry about it too much.

Sapphire needs to quit pushing that 370 and put the bigger blower on their Legend model truck mount. It's hurting those little guys who think they're saving money.

If you can't afford the 570, get the rage or price equivalent of a steam action. If you get a 370, you will be disappointed.
Thank you for your response, and sharing your experience and thoughts. The main thing about the 570 that has be thinking twice about it is the following:

(i) I've heard that because it's liquid cooled, its susceptible to have coolant leaks. Is this a thing? If so, how common is it? And how much would a repair like that cost?
(ii) The number of 370s sold vs 570s sold is significantly more, and Legend Brands is even saying its their best seller. That said, the numbers paint a picture that shows a very big difference in performance... in favor of the 570. It just has me confused as to why so many more people lean toward the 370 because when you're paying for a 370, you're 90% of the way (price wise) to a 570.
 

BIG WOOD

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Thank you for your response, and sharing your experience and thoughts. The main thing about the 570 that has be thinking twice about it is the following:

(i) I've heard that because it's liquid cooled, its susceptible to have coolant leaks. Is this a thing? If so, how common is it? And how much would a repair like that cost?
(ii) The number of 370s sold vs 570s sold is significantly more, and Legend Brands is even saying its their best seller. That said, the numbers paint a picture that shows a very big difference in performance... in favor of the 570. It just has me confused as to why so many more people lean toward the 370 because when you're paying for a 370, you're 90% of the way (price wise) to a 570.
a coolant leak maybe once a year isn't a problem. It's a maintenance issue
 
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BIG WOOD

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Should I expect the once a year leak even with proper maintenance? Or once a year if not maintained properly?
You might. It's a minor issue. Every machine has it qwerks, whether it be a coolant leak, chemical injector issue, temp sensor issues, etc. They're all minor problems that you'll encounter while you're learning the machine.

Look the machine over at the beginning of each day, tighten clamps quarterly, and you'll be ok
 

alexcarpets

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You might. It's a minor issue. Every machine has it qwerks, whether it be a coolant leak, chemical injector issue, temp sensor issues, etc. They're all minor problems that you'll encounter while you're learning the machine.

Look the machine over at the beginning of each day, tighten clamps quarterly, and you'll be ok
Greatly appreciate your input! Thank you kindly!
 

Jim Pemberton

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Should I expect the once a year leak even with proper maintenance? Or once a year if not maintained properly?

We have serviced 570s regularly since they were first introduced. I think we have had only one, at most two, coolant leaks that we've dealt with over that time.

The most common things we encounter (other than abuse and neglect) are:

(1) Thermal relief valve fails and the unit loses heat. When you replace your first one, replace the o-rings on the one you took off, and that's your back up for the next time. They don't fail often per unit, but when something comes in with an unexpected failure, this is one of the more common reasons.

(2) Inlet pressure regulator fails, mostly due to being clogged. It can be cleaned (with some difficulty), but you rarely have to replace it. Legends has a video that shows how to do it.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbW9HGMr_t4


(3) Diverter valve sticks due to lack of regulator lubrication.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtWNp6X_HJc


Other than that, the last step chemical injection system used by most heat exchange units can be a challenge, as there are several potential failure points. That isn't unique to the 570, and whether you buy a Legend Brands unit, a Hydramaster unit, or even a Butler system, you will need an understanding of how the system works and what most commonly fails.
 

Dolly Llama

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speaking of last step chem feed..

98.33725% of the guys that claim clear water rinse is best, gave up keeping the chem feed running right 😉



1713471923719.png




..L.T.A.
 

Jim Pemberton

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speaking of last step chem feed..

98.33725% of the guys that claim clear water rinse is best, gave up keeping the chem feed running right 😉



View attachment 126892



..L.T.A.

I wasn't going to say that....

But ok: A few guys take a look at what the priming and metering valves cost, and/or the time they end up taking tracing back leaks in hoses and flow meters, and end up deciding that they will always rinse with "fresh, pure, softened water" after that.
 

Doug Cox

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I wasn't going to say that....

But ok: A few guys take a look at what the priming and metering valves cost, and/or the time they end up taking tracing back leaks in hoses and flow meters, and end up deciding that they will always rinse with "fresh, pure, softened water" after that.
I switched to clear water rinse but it wasn’t because the metering stopped working. If people took care of their machines, maybe they wouldn’t stop working
 
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Doug Cox

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The main reason I bought the 570 is because it is a water cooled machine. That’s it.
I’ve had the water pump fail on both of my machines within the first year. Minor annoyance and relatively cheap. I’ve also been fixing leaks, water and coolant , due to poor assembly. It wouldn’t keep me from buying another one. After owning a Powerclean Genesis, these machines are a pretty good machine
 

alexcarpets

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We have serviced 570s regularly since they were first introduced. I think we have had only one, at most two, coolant leaks that we've dealt with over that time.

The most common things we encounter (other than abuse and neglect) are:

(1) Thermal relief valve fails and the unit loses heat. When you replace your first one, replace the o-rings on the one you took off, and that's your back up for the next time. They don't fail often per unit, but when something comes in with an unexpected failure, this is one of the more common reasons.

(2) Inlet pressure regulator fails, mostly due to being clogged. It can be cleaned (with some difficulty), but you rarely have to replace it. Legends has a video that shows how to do it.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbW9HGMr_t4


(3) Diverter valve sticks due to lack of regulator lubrication.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtWNp6X_HJc


Other than that, the last step chemical injection system used by most heat exchange units can be a challenge, as there are several potential failure points. That isn't unique to the 570, and whether you buy a Legend Brands unit, a Hydramaster unit, or even a Butler system, you will need an understanding of how the system works and what most commonly fails.

Posts like yours are why I am in favor of the featured option to thumbs-up a comment multiple times! Exceptionally helpful... Thank you immensely!
 

alexcarpets

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The main reason I bought the 570 is because it is a water cooled machine. That’s it.
I’ve had the water pump fail on both of my machines within the first year. Minor annoyance and relatively cheap. I’ve also been fixing leaks, water and coolant , due to poor assembly. It wouldn’t keep me from buying another one. After owning a Powerclean Genesis, these machines are a pretty good machine

You make a great point. Ultimately, no machine is perfect... but when the 570 works.. it works great it sounds like. Thank you for sharing your experience!
 

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