Respiratory problems

[SRI Cleaning]

Any of you guys have a sensitivity to your chems? We did things backwards and hired a tech when we started this business because i was installing home theaters and alarms at the time, so i learned from my first tech. (to an extent). When our tech left i decided to clean the carpets myself since the new construction market and thus, our other business was slowing alot. I've been cleaning them full time since last summer.

The point of my rant in this...In January I went to the doctors because I thought I had bronchitis. Since then I have had the cough on and off. it never went away. I have been to the doctor 5 times and have been given all kinds of inhalers. In fact a few weeks ago I woke up and couldnt breath so I went to the ER. I have had a chest xray and everything seemed fine. It just wont go away.

I am begining to wonder if the chems could be irritating me. I generally use either matrix grand slam or grease eraser. And usually all fiber rinse by matrix. Have any of you guys had a problem like this?

 

[bob vawter]

Yes Anthony...it's callt chemical emphysema.....the butyl in yor chems is causin' the lining of yor lungs...to crystallize and harden......i'm on O2 so i know a little about it!

 

[TimP]

Every time I use a strong cleaner with tons of butyl in it I always get congested and get a cough. You need to change over to something without it like Judsons O2 or Cobbs Powermax. One reason I'm going to be buying a good bit of Powermax instead of Bridgepoint Power Break for some large commercial jobs I've got coming up to do.

 

[Pmatte]

Bi-O-Kleen .

 

[Jim Martin]

right in the middle of your chest does it feel funny.and do you get a acid taste in your mouth and on your lips from time to time..........

 

[Lee Stockwell]

My son Jason is very sensitive to butyls and several related chems.

He spent many dollars for antibiotics etc that didn't help at all. It breaks a dad's heart to see a big smiling 6'4" lug go down in a heap, sometimes hospitalized, and not know how to help. It turns out, one of our "crazy environmental" friends pointed us to the answer.

I still use butyls in a very limited way, but always keep them off the truck Jason uses. The alternatives aren't "cheap",....unless you consider the true value of your health.

In a related vein, I believe my kidney stones were a byproduct of butyl abuse, because the doc said they were like the kind antifreeze poisoning victims get. Unless my wife was trying to off me.

Thanks,
Lee

 

[Able 1]

Does ultra pak have high butyls?

Even the 712?

 

[Dolly Llama]

Tony, try another pre-spray and see what happens.
even among butyl pre-sprays, some are worse than others for coughing

regardless, it's important to have adequate ventilation no matter what chems you use.
Just because a pre-spray isn't butyl base, doesn't mean it's more or less hazardous when you're exposed to it on a daily basis.
Peroxide, d'limonene, tEa trEe oil, etc isn't something we should breath all-de-time either.
For the most part, the pre-sprays commonly used aren't hazardous to our custys.
But we're in them day in and day out, so it's different for us.

here's some things you can do to lessen exposure;

Larger flow tip/jet on your pre-sprayer.
That will reduce the amount of atomized spray in the breathing zone compared to finer spray droplets from lower flow jets.

longer spray wand to keep the pre-spray closer to the carpet
(and out of the breathing zone)

an inexpensive 20" Patton fan put at the entrance blowing "out" will make a world of difference.
An added benefit is better dry times too.

lastly, know when to go "nuclear" and when not to.


...L.T.A.

 

[bob vawter]

In the ghetto, Meat.......ya GOTTA push the button.....

 

[ruff]

Raspitory problem

Tony,
Most of the time you do not need a pre- spray, no matter what these hacks tell you.
Use a good alkaline cleaner and you'll do fine.
When rarely needed, you can use an enzyme pre-spray if it is food related, or the appropriate one for the condition at hand.

As cleaners, we get tremendous and continuous exposure to these unhealthy chemicals and there definitely is a cumulative effect on our body.

Most cleaners use too much chemicals and way too much pre- spray. These guys think it's cool, they think it's macho.

Their suppliers love them.

Their kids too, for the short time they are around.

I've been cleaning forever now without hardly ever using a pre- spray. Business is great.
Happy clients.
Happy lungs.

Go figure- It must be the left coast!

Good luck and stay healthy.
Ofer

 

[Rex Tyus]

Kolfer1,

I will certainly not be casting a vote for you on ****** list with talk like that.

Let me guess we don't need to vacuum either? :shock:

 

[The Great Oz]

No style points, but the Kolfer is mostly correct.

A good emulsifier will cost more than a cheap pre-spray, but maybe less than a cheap pre-spray and rinse agent that actually works. It doesn't have to be a strong alkaline, or these days even alkaline at all. There are plenty of places where a particular pre-spray will help, but using one all of the time is waste of time and money, unless it just makes you feel better to do things 'by the book.'

The industry change from using emulsifying detergents through the truck mount chemical system to using a pre-spray and rinse agents through the system was driven by manufacturers that wanted to protect their heat exchangers from detergent, and there was the side benefit for the folks that sell sprayers and chemicals.

Now that manufacturers have mostly gone to last-stage chemical injection, detergent doesn't go through the heat exchangers, but there is no commercial reason to change what so many cleaners have accepted as 'the right way' to clean carpet.

 

[Duane Oxley]

I omitted Butyl from all but 2 of our products now. (SuperTLP and OneStep liquid, for instance, don't have them.)

The thing is that they actually perform better than the products that do... but they do cost more as well.

Heavy quat products, BTW, also can affect breathing.

 

[Scott S.]

i would switch chems and wear a respirator if i had problems like yours. yes i know a respirator looks kinda bad to the customer. but just explain that residual from years of using chems is your worry and that you are just taking precautionary measures because you deal with the chems every day.


i wear a respirator when i sand or apply poly and sometimes when i have to mix up the nuclear pres spray with alot of boosters.

i have never had a complaint

you can like everyone else said switch to a different chem system with different ingredients to help you out. only use the chem you need to use and not the strong stuff all the time.

 

[ruff]

Raspitory problem

Hey Rex,
What's "Vacuum"??

And for that matter, Whats "Waldo"

To your health.
Ofer

 

[ruff]

Raspitory problem

Also, Scott smith is absolutely right, wear a respirator. Tell your clients that you are protecting your health and that it will all be rinsed out any how. I do that and my clients appreciate it. They know that if I take the time to protect myself, I will also take the time to do a great job for them.

Duane,
It is very important to remove the real bad chemicals from the formulations, but we all know that due to multiple exposures on our side (us the cleaners), our risk is much higher. Also a lot of the products are absorbed through the skin via contact, let alone breathed in. Therefore, the best solution is to minimizing all exposures. It is called- playing it safe, it is our health after all.
As a formulator you know quite well that a good emulsifier can handle most soils, leaving the use of pre-spray only to when it is really needed. And that a good emulsifier will leave a minuscule amount of residue that will re-granulate.

To your health
Ofer

 

[Duane Oxley]

"...we all know that due to multiple exposures on our side (us the cleaners), our risk is much higher....

As a formulator you know quite well that a good emulsifier can handle most soils, leaving the use of pre-spray only to when it is really needed. And that a good emulsifier will leave a minuscule amount of residue that will re-granulate."

Absolutely. That's the entire concept behind OneStep.

At the same time, however, there is a lot of inertia behind the "pre- spray only" approach... From just the idea of using an emulsifier, to the myriad of poorly- formulated ones out there that perpetuate the idea that emulsifiers "can't be good".

 

[Lee Stockwell]

Don't paint all "pre-spray" users with the same brush, please. Some make the assumption that a pre spray is some aggressive, different chemical than the "emulsifier" typically running in the solution line. It isn't in our case.

We have calculated the amount of chemical used in a given area and have just chosen to apply that same chemical, whatever it is, before the rinse/extraction step. Practice has shown that the actual chemical volume can be reduced, sometimes by close to half, of what would have been used. Compare the dwell times to see why (remember TACTime).

The added value of a cleaner rinse is also a factor.

The chemical salesmen will be along shortly for a rebuttal....

Thanks,
Lee

 

[Duane Oxley]

Here's your (semi) rebuttal, Lee...

They do have things in common. But an emulsifier, if it's designed well, has anti- scaling agents and corrosion inhibitors that are unnecessary if the product is not run through the system. And it has to stand up to heat better as well... It has to be designed to rinse as well as possible, too... more so than a detergent, that's followed by a clear water rinse and has that going for it, in terms of residue reduction.

Yes, you can use detergents (the better ones, anyway) as emulsifiers, if all you look at is the carpet. But looking at the effect it has on the machine, if you use it as an emulsifier, it's not the same thing... not the way it was intended.

Using an emulsifier as a pre spray would be no problem, though, although some of the components would in effect, go unused.

BTW...

I ran calculations back in 1985, regarding how much emulsifier actually comes through a system. (This was a while back as you can see, so I don't have the figures "handy" anymore, but I remember the gist of it...) And basically, run through the truck mount, at 600 PSI through a #6 jet (2.1 GPM, if memory serves here), with 1 qt. of emulsifier diluted into 5 gal. of water, then metered through at 2 to 4 GPH, the resulting dilution rate was 1/3 to 1/6 of emulsifier to a gallon of water.


1 qt. to 5 gal. = 1 to 19 dilution

2 GPH = 256 oz./ hr. = 4.266 oz. / min., of which about 5% is actual emulsifier, so actual chemical flow is 5% of 4.266 oz. / min, or, .213 oz. per minute

2 GPM flow rate = 256 oz. / min. flow

That's the basis for the calculations...

 

[SRI Cleaning]

Thanks guys I appreciate the responses. I almost always use grease eraser which has no butyl, maybe i just have a bad reaction to it. i am gonna try the fan and respirator idea esp. when i am in rentals.

 

[J Scott W]

Certainly some presprays and some ingredients are more problematic than others. But, don't overlook the way you apply the prespray.

Use a larger tip. A smaller tip will atomize more of the prespray allowing it to drift into the air you inhale. A large tip means larger drops and more likely the prespray will fall to the carpet instead of getting into the air.

I suggest an 06 jet for normal use, but anyone having problems could move up to an 08 tip.

The pressure also effects how the prespray is dispersed. Don't use more pressure than needed. 400 to 500 PSI is normal is use a HydroForce or Spraymaster type sprayer, but they will work fine when pressure is cut down to 200 - 250 PSI. there will be less product in the air to inhale.

Keep the nozzle down close to the carpet, maybe 12" or so away.

Even look at the kind of sprayer you are using.

Look at some of the newer green products that have no buytl or other irritating ingredients. If you want to try Green Balance prespray, send me an email with your address. I'll arrange for you to get a gallon to try out.

Scott Warrinton