scotchgard and wool question

[davegillfishing]

never have applied it to wool...anything i need to do different??
it is 3 sets of steps that are wall to wall style and a runner..
i will be hwe and my pre spray will be Prochem Axiom and a all fiber rinse
my question is do i lay down the sg right after raking in the rinse or do i need to
wait for a while?? if i need to wait how long??
do i need to use a wool sg or regular?
sorry for the seemingly stupid questions but i am lacking in my sg sales
and want to make sure this is dont right..
thanks for any and all advise..
dave

 

[Doug Cox]

I very seldom use Fiber Rinse on wool wtw. I would clean and apply Scotchgard and pass on the fiber rinse. Then again, I don't sell much Scotchgard.

 

[handdi]

dave we run our all fiber rinse thru our tm as a rinse
then after finished spray sg on and rake it in will be fine
unless i misunderstood ya

 

[daniel@procarpet]

Why not just use a good solvent protector? I would atleast offer that option for a high markup. Whatever a gallon costs charge double that and do it by the application. Some people are more than willing to pay for a solvent especially if it is wall to wall wool carpet. Atleast you sold them on sg which is better than no protector.

 

[davegillfishing]

i dont run anything through my butler..i am a ro water rinse guy and thought wool needed a acid rinse
so i was going to just mist it on and rake it in but if it is not needed on the wall to wall i would have to ask why not?
they are big on the actual scotchgard product itself so that is it for them..

 

[daniel@procarpet]

i dont run anything through my butler..i am a ro water rinse guy and thought wool needed a acid rinse
so i was going to just mist it on and rake it in but if it is not needed on the wall to wall i would have to ask why not?
they are big on the actual scotchgard product itself so that is it for them..

I don't want to debate you on running a rinse or not but I saw a very persuasive demonstration. The guy poured some water on a paper plate and let it sit for 15 minutes and the water just sat there. The paper was still pretty strong and you would have trouble poking your finger through.

Then he poured some water on a different plate and added a few drops of a surfactant and instantly the water spread out and the paper collapsed. The water broke down the surface tension on the plate to the point that the water went right through the paper plastic.

The point of this is a rinse like slurry or any other brand even in trace amounts will soften the water and clean soils from carpet so much more effectively.

Why not run a rinse to clean better and faster as well. I cleaned for two years without a rinse and now that I have a HOT machine I could never clean without a rinse agent or emulsifier.

 

[Nate The Great]

i dont run anything through my butler..i am a ro water rinse guy and thought wool needed a acid rinse
so i was going to just mist it on and rake it in but if it is not needed on the wall to wall i would have to ask why not?
they are big on the actual scotchgard product itself so that is it for them..

I don't want to debate you on running a rinse or not but I saw a very persuasive demonstration. The guy poured some water on a paper plate and let it sit for 15 minutes and the water just sat there. The paper was still pretty strong and you would have trouble poking your finger through.

Then he poured some water on a different plate and added a few drops of a surfactant and instantly the water spread out and the paper collapsed. The water broke down the surface tension on the plate to the point that the water went right through the paper plastic.

The point of this is a rinse like slurry or any other brand even in trace amounts will soften the water and clean soils from carpet so much more effectively.

Why not run a rinse to clean better and faster as well. I cleaned for two years without a rinse and now that I have a HOT machine I could never clean without a rinse agent or emulsifier.

Did they test RO water? Or was it plain water? Do you have hard water where you are? There is alot of science behind just using a rinse agent or emulsifier. I do agree a rinse agent does break the surface tension down. But alot of variables in that test.

 

[daniel@procarpet]

Our water is not hard at all. We have great water. This was just bottled water though. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that surfactants break the surface tension allowing the cleanig agent to penetrate the carpet fibers and clean more effectively. An even more simple way of looking at it is I can see and feel a difference evey time I key the wand. the water feels heavier and more forceful. When I run out of chem I notice a big dfference. I mix slurry at just 1 cup in a 5 gallon jug and meter at 2 and I can tell a difference.

 

[sweendogg]

Dave... if you are using Ro water.. don't worrya about a rinse. Axiom is pretty free rinsing and as long as you are not soaking those stairs down you are good to go. A fiber rinse is going to be good to use when you need to use a high alkaline prepray to cut through tough grease on wool, or you need to sour the carpet to prevent cellulosic browning as most wool carpet is woven with jute or in the case of an axeminster/wilton runner, often will have a cotton foundation, or a combo of jute/cotton. Wool like to be in an acidic state but neutral works just as well.

You will be fine applying scotchgard, just make sure to not soak it down, use your electric sprayer or pump up. and give it a good application. Remember wool will absorb up to 30% of its own weight in water so make you apply enough to get good application.

While a Solvent protector like Kleen guard or Masterblend's Ultimate is generally a great for natural fibers and eliminates the risks of potential browning from water based protectors, you and the homeowner will have to deal with the extra odor and ventilation required for applying solvent protectors as well as using the right PPE. So if you go that route make sure to advice your customers of that inconvenience and your extra time.

 

[Larry Cobb]

Dave;

I agree with David S.

The RO water is a great rinse by itself.

Spray the SG on about 15 minutes after a light RO rinse, and it fill work just fine.

Larry

P.S. Even though we offer the SG,
Ultraseal Solvent Protector would indeed do a better job.

 

[The Great Oz]

Best would be to apply a protector made specifically for wool carpet. At this point that would include Teflon for Wool or Teflon for Wool. It will be pricier than other products so most cleaners don't use it and for that reason your distributor may not have it in stock.

Any fluorochemical protector will work pretty well on wool though. Don't worry about browning either. If you applied a water-based protector heavy enough to bring up tannin from the backing, the dry carpet would feel like you'd sprayed it with contact cement.


Side story:
We had a little color repair class at our shop today, thanks to Tony Wheelwright. For damage I poured chlorine bleach on several pieces of carpet. One set of samples was cut from waste bits of a Karastan wool rug we had cut down for a customer. Several hours later the wool carpet was dry and showed no discoloration. We had applied Teflon for Wool when we cleaned the rug prior to cutting it down and the bleach evaporated without doing any damage. (Murdered the type 6 nylon though)

I would not want a customer to think they could expect this, but it's nice to know the product works.

 

[davegillfishing]

great stuff guys..thanks for the education. it is pretty much what my thoughts were just great
to get positive reinforcement.

i have been running a true ro rinse for years and would put it up against
anything as i have tried a bunch of rinses and nothing compares..
larry we love your sealer because we can jump from tile and grout to
fabric so it is our go to product but this cust has a hard on for sg
and wants to see sealed bottles..i will post pics of the job when done
as it is a 10 million dollar home on the ocean..last guy that was there
charged 5 grand to just sg all the carpet and uph he said it didnt need cleaning
i told them that i would never sg anthing w/o cleaning it first..
so we will see if this guy screwed them or what the deal is..they said as soon
as they told him it was all wool that he had a funny look on his face..
he must not be smart enough to be hooked up with a bunch of industry
leaders like you...
thanks guys
dave

 

[sweendogg]

Best would be to apply a protector made specifically for wool carpet. At this point that would include Teflon for Wool or Teflon for Wool. quote]

http://www.masterblend.net/index.php?op ... &Itemid=68

http://www.masterblend.net/index.php?op ... &Itemid=68

http://www.chemspecworld.com/catalog_br ... ictNbr=330

Just few others made for wool or safe for wool!

 

[J Scott W]

I agree that a protector made for wool offers some advantages. The main thing is differnt dilution. Becuase wool is so absorbent, it will require more regular Scotchgard than a synthetic carpet would.

If you use a product for wool, follow label directions. If you use Scotchgard, apply about double the amount you would for synthetic fibers. Of course, charge appropriately. Apply more product or a product especially for wool will cost you more.

 

[davegillfishing]

thanks scott..so you are talking about mixing the sg at double strength not applying double the amount to the carpet..
we are looking to mix stronger not lay more down..or am i backwords?
thanks

 

[sweendogg]

Yupp.. uh huh.. what Scott said!

 

[colin fitch]

Carpet protector bonds to wool fibres better when in acid state than alkaline state.

process

pre-spray
acid rinse[do not rake yet]

put equipment away

apply carpet protector[rake in now and set pile]

collect money

done

 

[davegillfishing]

ok got that but as scott was saying do i want to mix the sg heave or apply it heave?
thanks
dave

 

[sweendogg]

Devil is in the details

apply about double the amount you would for synthetic fibers. Of course, charge appropriately. Apply more product or a product especially for wool will cost you more.

Basically go nice and slow and give a really good heavy application.

 

[Harry Myers]

I admire alot of indivusuals here but for me a solvent is far more superior. I have tested DuPont and many other water based sealers as well as solvent based. I have to say solvent are far superior.

 

[davegillfishing]

thanks sween..i guess i should do as i tell all my guys and pay better attn..
thanks

 

[sweendogg]

No prob Dave.. I had to reread it myself to be sure!

Btw..


Harry.. Happy Belated Birthday! 42 yrs young this week eh?

 

[colin fitch]

ok got that but as scott was saying do i want to mix the sg heave or apply it heave?
thanks
dave

Mix the sg as normal[in the u.k. 1-4]
and apply as david sweeny says[walk at a slower pace to apply the extra product]

As Harry says solvent protectors are good when applied correctly,but when over applied cause the carpets to stretch[buckling??]

 

[davegillfishing]

thanks again for the confidence boost guys..i am going into this job better informed
and more confident than i would have..
i will post some pics and results when done on friday
dave

 

[-JB-]

I've been using this with great satisfaction on wool especially...

http://www.hardballchemical.com/prod01.htm

 

[ruff]

Carpet protector bonds to wool fibres better when in acid state than alkaline state.

process

pre-spray
acid rinse[do not rake yet]

put equipment away

apply carpet protector[rake in now and set pile]

collect money

done

Using that logic, why would you post spray with acid?
The water based ScotchGuard and Teflon are on the acid side anyhow.

 

[Harry Myers]

Dave thanks for the birthday wish. I appreciate.

 

[CleanEvo]

I use Axiom pre-spray all the time, if I'm in a customers home and they have wool rugs, I use the Axiom and even keep my light Dry Slurry rinse and I've never had any issues. I've been back to customers homes several weeks or months later and am surprised how good the area rugs still look. The main thinks is to just go a little lighter on the pre-spray, rinse well and extract really well. I've done this on cheap rugs and expensive rugs, the main thing is to test for color fastness. If you think it's gonna bleed, walk away.

 

[sweendogg]

naaaaa if its going to bleed just blast it with alot more water!!!! :mrgreen: Of course I'm talking about full washing tool..

 

[The Great Oz]

I can understand the use of solvent carried protectors on water-sensitive upholstery since you obviously don't want to add water.

I'm trying to understand how using an OMS carrier can make the same fluorochemical better than if it was carried by water.

It certainly makes it a boatload more expensive to use.