Mikey P
Administrator
Lets hear it O'Halick, what have you seen?
No speculation please.
Sort of like carpet cleaners that use oxidizers...
- Thread starter Mikey P
- Start date
Lets hear it O'Halick, what have you seen?
No speculation please.
The Great Oz
Member
There are times to use an oxidizer, and I'm sure everyone on this board knows the how, why and when, but most cleaners don't. Most cleaners also either don't know how to neutralize an oxidizer or don't care.
Back when I did inspections, it was pretty common to run into faded traffic lanes from oxidizer use. The customer usually blamed the carpet for losing color too fast, and never noticed that the basement hallway or low light level restaurant entry was lighter than rooms that got direct sunlight. The hack cleaner got away with it.
If the customer did notice that their carpet was a few too many shades lighter after cleaning, the number one excuse given by the former carpet cleaner was that the color was wearing out of the traffic lanes. In those cases the carpet owner would realize the futility of suing a guy working out of his apartment, and the hack cleaner got away with it.
When a mill is involved they hunt down the cleaner. He would usually deny using an oxidizer or claim to be surprised that there was an oxidizer in his cleaning chemical. He would then try to blame the chemical manufacturer or his distributor for steering him wrong. The chemical manufacturer would ALWAYS say that the product was used incorrectly, because they all have that little "pretest in a..." disclaimer. In this case the cleaner would be the one writing the check for replacement carpet.
In the shop I see lots of the less expensive wool rugs that have been damaged by on-location cleaners, and lots of cotton upholstery fabric that you can push your finger through from gross misapplications of oxidizers.
PS: Just in case:
Type 6 nylon and wool and plant fibers are all susceptible to damage from oxidizers, type 6.6 nylon and other plastics less so. If you regularly use oxidizers, at least learn to recognize type 6 nylon.
Back when I did inspections, it was pretty common to run into faded traffic lanes from oxidizer use. The customer usually blamed the carpet for losing color too fast, and never noticed that the basement hallway or low light level restaurant entry was lighter than rooms that got direct sunlight. The hack cleaner got away with it.
If the customer did notice that their carpet was a few too many shades lighter after cleaning, the number one excuse given by the former carpet cleaner was that the color was wearing out of the traffic lanes. In those cases the carpet owner would realize the futility of suing a guy working out of his apartment, and the hack cleaner got away with it.
When a mill is involved they hunt down the cleaner. He would usually deny using an oxidizer or claim to be surprised that there was an oxidizer in his cleaning chemical. He would then try to blame the chemical manufacturer or his distributor for steering him wrong. The chemical manufacturer would ALWAYS say that the product was used incorrectly, because they all have that little "pretest in a..." disclaimer. In this case the cleaner would be the one writing the check for replacement carpet.
In the shop I see lots of the less expensive wool rugs that have been damaged by on-location cleaners, and lots of cotton upholstery fabric that you can push your finger through from gross misapplications of oxidizers.
PS: Just in case:
Type 6 nylon and wool and plant fibers are all susceptible to damage from oxidizers, type 6.6 nylon and other plastics less so. If you regularly use oxidizers, at least learn to recognize type 6 nylon.
Mikey P
Administrator
Wouldn't the Oxidizer have to be in the rinse water to have the long term effect?
The Great Oz
Member
Nope, but leaving it in the carpet or upholstery is definitely worse.
That instant "brightening" that lots of guys love to brag on about their oxidizing prespray is often partially color loss. If the carpet was trashed enough before cleaning, maybe the overall appearance improvement is so great that it doesn't matter, but just because an oxidizer helped resurrect a crapola olefin carpeted restaurant doesn't mean you should use it everywhere, all of the time.
Fringe bleach, not rinsed and not neutralized, is what burns a lot of fringes off of rugs, and oxidizing shampoos such as the old Haitian cotton cleaners are hell on upholstery fabric.
That instant "brightening" that lots of guys love to brag on about their oxidizing prespray is often partially color loss. If the carpet was trashed enough before cleaning, maybe the overall appearance improvement is so great that it doesn't matter, but just because an oxidizer helped resurrect a crapola olefin carpeted restaurant doesn't mean you should use it everywhere, all of the time.
Fringe bleach, not rinsed and not neutralized, is what burns a lot of fringes off of rugs, and oxidizing shampoos such as the old Haitian cotton cleaners are hell on upholstery fabric.
B&BGaryC
Member
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2007
- Messages
- 4,667
- Name
- B&BGaryC
Oxidizing Pre-Spray like Judson's 02 Juice?
Or am I confused?
Or am I confused?
CTI makes an emulsifier with a peroxide additive.
Laundry detergents are made with them.
I see it as an over use of the chemical or maybe they used clorox.
I have had no problem using the liquid version.
I've run into problems when people use the powdered oxyclean to spot clean their own carpet.
Laundry detergents are made with them.
I see it as an over use of the chemical or maybe they used clorox.
I have had no problem using the liquid version.
I've run into problems when people use the powdered oxyclean to spot clean their own carpet.
ruff
Member
sort of like carpet cleaners that use oxidizers
Bryan,
I totally agree about the use of oxidizers. Way over done, alot od damge and the fringes fall out.
How far back are you talking about, regarding the Haitian Cotton shampoos?
The old ChemSpec Haitian Cottton formula shampoo, was a reducing agent boosted to the acid side, though.
Bryan,
I totally agree about the use of oxidizers. Way over done, alot od damge and the fringes fall out.
How far back are you talking about, regarding the Haitian Cotton shampoos?
The old ChemSpec Haitian Cottton formula shampoo, was a reducing agent boosted to the acid side, though.
I am the clueless carpet cleaner you speak of.(though I am 1 class away from master textile cleaner WTF)
Here are my chems most days am I safe
Ultrapac
All Fiber Rinse
Axiom Prespray
Axiom Rinse
Dry slurry(very rare but metered through the machine)
Here are my chems most days am I safe
Ultrapac
All Fiber Rinse
Axiom Prespray
Axiom Rinse
Dry slurry(very rare but metered through the machine)
Harry Myers
Member
Bryan I don't use oxidizers to clean. I clean wool mostly. So I do know about neutralizing. Let me ask on behalf of those that do use oxidizers. What if after that they use a fab-set or an acid rinse of sort to bring down the pH.
The Great Oz
Member
If the fiber and dye system are strong enough, and the oxidizer solution weak enough, and you stop the action, you may do no appreciable harm. The appearance improvement may be a reasonable trade-off for the minor amount of damage done.
I don't know enough about all of the various chemical brands to make any recommendations, so you have to depend on the manufacturer's instructions for the products you use. Even then you have to be able to determine the fiber type and weigh the possible outcomes. If you load up on peroxide from Sally's and make your own juice you'd better be pretty sure of your abilities.
In regard to oxidizer use on carpet, I would be careful to dilute properly and rinse if I used them on anything that wasn't solution dyed, I would be hesitant to use them at all to clean type 6 nylon unless the carpet was in such sad condition that fading wouldn't matter. I would use them only for specialized spot cleaning of any cotton or wool, and wouldn't recommend this to anyone that can't afford to buy what they're working on.
It would be rare for me to use an oxidizer on upholstery, but I'm fortunate in not having a great deal of dog oil stained Herculon to work on.
An analogy is that oxidization is a little chemical fire, you're using it to burn away some unwanted color. Like fire, it needs to be used responsibly and controlled. Burning a summer field of grass is easier than mowing, but you might burn down the tool shed while you're at it. 8)
I don't know enough about all of the various chemical brands to make any recommendations, so you have to depend on the manufacturer's instructions for the products you use. Even then you have to be able to determine the fiber type and weigh the possible outcomes. If you load up on peroxide from Sally's and make your own juice you'd better be pretty sure of your abilities.
In regard to oxidizer use on carpet, I would be careful to dilute properly and rinse if I used them on anything that wasn't solution dyed, I would be hesitant to use them at all to clean type 6 nylon unless the carpet was in such sad condition that fading wouldn't matter. I would use them only for specialized spot cleaning of any cotton or wool, and wouldn't recommend this to anyone that can't afford to buy what they're working on.
It would be rare for me to use an oxidizer on upholstery, but I'm fortunate in not having a great deal of dog oil stained Herculon to work on.
An analogy is that oxidization is a little chemical fire, you're using it to burn away some unwanted color. Like fire, it needs to be used responsibly and controlled. Burning a summer field of grass is easier than mowing, but you might burn down the tool shed while you're at it. 8)
Harry Myers
Member
Type 6 nylon and type 6.6 nylon differ from the molecular structure. Allot of this has to do with soiling, reflection of light. But almost impossible to tell by the eye.
Harry Myers
Member
Glossary for carpet exellent resource
Carpet glossary will help anyone in the installation as well as the cleaning portion of the business. http://antron.net/content/resources/car ... 3_16.shtml
Carpet glossary will help anyone in the installation as well as the cleaning portion of the business. http://antron.net/content/resources/car ... 3_16.shtml
Larry Cobb
Member
Bryan;
I do agree with you on the overuse of oxidizers.
I saw an 18% peroxide product at the RIA convention that the manufacturers were recommending to use at full strength on urine stains. One cleaner even asked me if it was OK to use on wool.
I do think that properly diluted, oxidizers can help with traffic lane grey.
We are using them more in conjunction with UV lights.
Larry
I do agree with you on the overuse of oxidizers.
I saw an 18% peroxide product at the RIA convention that the manufacturers were recommending to use at full strength on urine stains. One cleaner even asked me if it was OK to use on wool.
I do think that properly diluted, oxidizers can help with traffic lane grey.
We are using them more in conjunction with UV lights.
Larry
The Great Oz
Member
The oversimplification is that type 6 is a softer fiber with more, and more open, dye sites. It can be easily post dyed so is the cheaper option for custom patterns in restaurants and casinos, and as a cheaper fiber it is the first choice for builder grade installations. Easier to dye, easier to remove dye though, and these are the ones most likely to show damage from oxidizer overuse. Hot cleaning solution (with no oxidizer) from a leaky fitting can take the color completely out of type 6, I haven't seen that happen to a 6.6.
Harry,
I may not be able to tell the difference between two new samples, but can almost always tell the difference after they've seen some use. I can't describe exactly how, but there is a combination of feel, loss of tuft twist, pattern definition, dye penetration, construction and how it looks in traffic areas that seem apparent to me. I'd guess this is something like the Oriental rug expert that knows what a rug is, but can't tell you why. You see enough that exactly what you're looking for doesn't register, it just is what it is. I'm sure there are lots of other guys that can do this too, and maybe someone has a way to describe how they do it.
Harry,
I may not be able to tell the difference between two new samples, but can almost always tell the difference after they've seen some use. I can't describe exactly how, but there is a combination of feel, loss of tuft twist, pattern definition, dye penetration, construction and how it looks in traffic areas that seem apparent to me. I'd guess this is something like the Oriental rug expert that knows what a rug is, but can't tell you why. You see enough that exactly what you're looking for doesn't register, it just is what it is. I'm sure there are lots of other guys that can do this too, and maybe someone has a way to describe how they do it.
Harry Myers
Member
Bryan just listening to what you offer. I am not debating you at all.
The Great Oz
Member
Harry, Didn't take it that you were. Not being defensive, just explaining that it usually doesn't require a microscope to tell the difference.
BTW, type 6 is generally produced for carpet use by BASF and Allied Chemical, and type 6.6 by DuPont/Invista and Monsanto/Solutia. These brands may be the only clue the customer would have as to the nylon type, unless they have a sample with the specs on the label.
BTW, type 6 is generally produced for carpet use by BASF and Allied Chemical, and type 6.6 by DuPont/Invista and Monsanto/Solutia. These brands may be the only clue the customer would have as to the nylon type, unless they have a sample with the specs on the label.
charlie brown
Member
- Joined
- Oct 8, 2006
- Messages
- 61
Oxidizers
Bryan, would I be correct in assuming that you have taken the 8 day textile class? I'm not trying to start anything. Have any of the fiber manufacturers put out any bulletin's on the use of oxidizer's on stain resistant carpet or wool? Why would carpet cleaning chemical manufacturer's be designing oxygenated pre-spray's, calling them safe ?
Bryan, would I be correct in assuming that you have taken the 8 day textile class? I'm not trying to start anything. Have any of the fiber manufacturers put out any bulletin's on the use of oxidizer's on stain resistant carpet or wool? Why would carpet cleaning chemical manufacturer's be designing oxygenated pre-spray's, calling them safe ?
