Update - Commercial glue seeping thru - Pics

[tmdry]

Had a residential client tell me that they had a company install CGD 2 years ago @ their hotel, and the glue seems to be seeping thru the carpet over time, the company that installed the carpet went out and cleaned(no clue what method/equipment used), and it has gotten worse he says. The area is over 200k of carpet, but not all of it is like that. They don't have anyone maintaining the carpets since it was laid down and this problem has been happening.

At first I thought it was wickbacks, but can this really happen? I have not seen the hotel yet, but I'll be in the area this week and would like to stop by and take a look, maybe shoot some pics and I'll post it on here.

Thanks,

Bill

 

[Dirtmonger]

Re: Commercial glue seeping thru

I wonder what the resoiling potential of floor adhesive is? Probably can't resoil if you can't clean to begin with? I couldn't imagine a way of cleaning it that would be cheaper than tearing it out and replacing it. I guess it's a matter of severity first. Their cheapest answer would for you to use enough solvent cleaner to burn the place down.

 

[Joel D]

Re: Commercial glue seeping thru

That doesnt add up to me. Carpet glue gets the consistency of gum soon after its spread.

The only thing i can think of that could cause the glue to do that would be an extreme moisture problem in the floor.

Maybe the installer using to much glue, but that would be very expensive and would be a big mess immediatly. If anything lack of glue is the common mistake installers make to save money.

I say something else like lack of cleaning.

 

[Guest]

Re: Commercial glue seeping thru

janitor cleaned or professionally ? if its the former that could be most of the problem.

 

[Jamesh921]

Re: Commercial glue seeping thru

If it's excessive moisture coming from the slab (which is what it sounds like), there should be some buckling/wrinkling of the carpet. Or, at the very least, you should be able to pull on the carpet and it would release from the floor. Also, find out whether the entire 200k is affected or is it just in certain areas. Is it only happening in high traffic areas? Of does it show up everywhere? Does it show up in only "some" high traffic areas or all of them?
Also, I'd get the installation company rep and the original installer out there (if possible). Any info you can get from them may help in determining the problem. This doesn't sound like an easy fix so, on a job that big, you may need to get an inspector involved as well.

Good luck

 

[tmdry]

Re: Commercial glue seeping thru

Thanks for the info.

He said, once they saw the issue, they called called the installers , and the installers cleaned it themselves, but I don't know all the details. I'll be in the area tomorrow and will swing by to take a peek.

Thanks,

Bill

 

[Dale]

Re: Commercial glue seeping thru

Hi Bill:

I am a full-time flooring Inspector. I agree with James that is sounds like moisture coming through the slab. But not that it necessarily would wrinkle. In fact I have seen carpet that had no wrinkles, with excessive slab moisture. Regardless, it should be tested to eliminate the possiblity. Remember, slab moisture comes through as VAPOR, it then softens the adhesive, and makes it gooey. And gooey adhesive works itself to the top.

How an Inspector tests for this is, with a Hygrometer and a pickup sensor designed for a slab. It is the ASTM F2170 test (research for details). The carpet is sliced about 2” criss-cross fashion and the corners folded back. A ½’ hole is drilled in the slab and let to acclimate for 24 hrs. Then a slab probe is stuck in the hole and let set until the meter reading stabilizes. The meter reading tells the amount of moisture moving through the slab. Then fold the carpet corners back, and make a decision.

If too much moisture is coming through and the Installers did not do prior testing they usually are to blame (according to standards).

Sincerely,
Dale

 

[Derek]

Re: Commercial glue seeping thru

i have seen this twice in 2 clients facilities, in small areas....what appears to be glue coming up at the seams of carpet tile. must be a moisture problem there as well.

 

[Dale]

Re: Commercial glue seeping thru

Hey Bill:

If it does look like wet adhesive, and you need an Inspector, let me know hhere it is. I may know someone concrete, and carpet certified in the area. That's what you'll need.

Thx
Dale

 

[tmdry]

Re: Commercial glue seeping thru

Thanks Dale for the information.

I went to the place today, it was indeed a mess :shock:

Took lot's of pictures will post them up as soon as I get a chance. I did notice that the moisture(looks almost like real bad wicking), is all over the place, and not just on one type of carpet, different levels of the building etc. I'll post the pictures, and you guys can tell me what you think might be.

Thanks,

Bill

 

[Jamesh921]

Re: Commercial glue seeping thru

"different levels of the building"

What does that mean exactly? Different stories? Different levels on the ground floor? Different levels on multiple floors? Above grade? On grade? Below grade? All of the above? Please elaborate.

Also, does the "alleged" adhesive attach to your shoes as you walk across it and track up the rest of the carpet?

Is this happening only in the common areas like halls and resturant or does it happen in the rooms too?

Geez, it appears that you've got me obsessed with this issue. I don't know why. I guess I just absolutely, positively NEED to know the answer. I hate it when that happens - and just imagine how my wife feels when I get this way about something she's involved with

 

[tmdry]

Re: Commercial glue seeping thru

I meant different stories.

Didn't get into rooms.

Nothing attaches to your shoes, to me it looks like major wickbacks, no sticky residue, but I'm not quite sure.

These are common areas, halls, lobby, and between exhibit halls. Did not go into restaurants.

 

[Dale]

Hi Bill:

That sure looks like random pooling to me, and I've seen a lot of it. In fact, I've (very) temporarily repaired it, with steam.

Her'es what I do to prove it. First I eliminate it was caused from soiling, by using a white towel. First a dry-solvent, then water, and I look for transfer. If htere is none, and/or no difference light-dark.

Next you can do the paper-roller pile direction trick on the pooling dark/light sections and prove the pile direction has changed. Or you an hold a mirror up to it and see if it reverse. Pooling is not a defect. In fact it is BEAUTIFULL! Everyone should be charged extra for it.

Sincerely,
Dale

 

[Desk Jockey]

I thought it looked oily from the pictures. :?:

 

[Mikey P]

Looks like pooling to me as well.

 

[TimP]

Have to agree with the pooling or some hack spilling detergent causing resoil.....

Only way to tell is to feel it, you'd feel glue or detergent. If it's not there then it's pooling.

 

[Joel D]

From what i hear carpet mills wont replace carpet with pooling problems. "caused by on sight conditions" or something like that

Wont they be thrilled. Ivebeensold

 

[Bob Foster]

I think the brown areas are from someone who has spilled a jug of something off of a housekeeping cart and its wicking back.

 

[Goomer]

Can someone please explain pooling?

 

[sweendogg]

Pooling and Shading are issues that arrise in carpet ususally velvet or plush glue directs.. (but can happen in almost any time of semi piled carpet) Where the pile starts to distort and lay in different directions. The carpet industry has spent millions trying to figure out what causes it and have come to the conclusion that its specfics to on job conditions. But there is no clear cut cause or solution. Sometimes it can be fixed with steam and lot of grooming while other times its a winless situation. This is different from texture reversal and pile distortion because it almost always happens right after it has been installed or it has been exposed to very low traffic.

 

[tmdry]

You don't feel glue or detergent, I tried that as well.

Here's an article I found talking more about Pooling, the pictures look almost identical to the ones I took.

http://starnetflooring.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/vol1_1.pdf

 

[steve frasier]

I have 50,000 sq ft of 12 year old jute backed polyester in dorms that look like that. Always wondered what it was. I was told previous cleaners would clean it with a portable and it would be wet for more than 24 hours.

I have the pooling where the carpet is glued to gypcrete (sp?) on 3 floors but the basement floor that is glued to concrete has no pooling and only on the blue colored carpet.

I kind of thought it might be from high alkaline carpet presprays and rinses

 

[Dale]

Hi guys:

I’m not being aloof but pooling really is explained as "an unknown phenomena". I have not spent millions like the mill, but I have spent more time, and money that I wish I had on it. In a hope to get pay back from the mills. If you can figure it out, go for it. One thing that I have proven it is NOT, is electrostatic charges. Tony once sent me an Inspectors “proof” that it was, so I bought an electric static meter. If you want to ask him for the “proof”, I will be happy to sell you the meter……

Here’s something to think about: Wool rugs pool a lot, and they call it “the beauty of the rug”. So if they do, and the rug's not attached to the home, and wool is the most resilient fiber, that eliminates a lot of testing. Bottom-line when it comes to court cases, nobody proves anything. The Judge just decides if he thinks it's too ugly to live with.

Thx,
Dale

 

[sweendogg]

well said Dale!

I know in our fifty plus years in retail we have pulled our share of hair out explaing it to the customer.

 

[TimP]

I have one job that I do that drives me insane cause it don't look clean and it's pooling.

You can feel the fibers laying different directions and see it when you get close. That's how you can tell in my opinion. This particular case the carpet is a very very dense high pile nylon. High dollar stuff. I can't run my RX on it cause of the pooling either. It's a royal PITA.

 

[sweendogg]

I know we all hate the CRI.. or atleast the SOA program...

but this is a very good article to keep in hand when situations like this arise:

http://www.carpet-rug.org/technical_bul ... hading.pdf

Again dense plush carpets will show it more often than not, but there is no solution. and no amount of cleaning will fix the problem. At very least this will keep your head off the butcher's block, but not sure it will save the installers, retailers, or previous cleaners hide at this point. I'm sure the clients want to blame someone. Good luck!


TMDry, if they end up replacing it, If its all possible to shoot some of the same photo angles of the area once the carpet has been removed.. if it ever comes to that.. I think alot of use would be curious just what is under those areas where the pooling is taking place.

 

[tmdry]

TMDry, if they end up replacing it, If its all possible to shoot some of the same photo angles of the area once the carpet has been removed.. if it ever comes to that.. I think alot of use would be curious just what is under those areas where the pooling is taking place.

They said all the carpet is getting replaced in December and were thankful for the information.