Venturi PTO Gremlin.... yelp....

[Carpet Cleaning Fool]

Still haven't found it.

While cleaning, the engine rpm's fluctuate "Up" then back to normal. Simultaniously, the PTO slows "down" then back to normal.

Usually, it's a rapid "up and down" every two seconds. Rarely, the pto slows down and stays down for several minutes.

I've replaced and torque belts
replaced PTO soleniod
cleaned PTO screens
flushed tranny at the local quicklube
bypassed the low water shutdown switch
bypassed the waste water full shutdown switch
4 tanks of diesel fuel system cleaner
cleaned the water seperator
replaced fuel filter

I'm running out of ideas here.

It's a Muncie Pto (not chelsea 270) which appears to be original. the transmission seems to drive fine.

So, wtf? over...

 

[Mike Draper]

it could have something to do with the Vacuum system, ( the one that operates your air vents in your van changing form defrost to feet, vents and so on) if one of the hoses or plastic parts in the engine compartment got hot one day it could have melted just enough to interrupt the vac flow. This could greatly affect your RPM's. same thing happened on my butler. Part was $6.00 to fix.

 

[Jimbo]

Good, idea, Mike!...I think I remember the UD having an auxillary vacuum pump on the pass side of the engine...maybe backing up the alternator...and there was some splicing done on the vacuum lines to operate the V equipment...might want to carefully examine all the vac lines and junctions to make sure they are functioning correctly.

It seemed like my 02 V had some rpm fluctuation if either the engine brake or the emergency brake was on...as that activated the engine brake.

I'd suggest looking at Vortex Info.com and checking out the detailed manuals that are safeguarded there...that should be a big help.

 

[Jim Martin]

the UD has a vacuum booster pump on the back of the alternator and on some models it is tapped into and used to run the exhaust diverter....I don't think that they did this on all the venturi models (?)............If buy chance this is the problem then your brake light should be coming on and staying lit because this little pump also is the booster for the air holding tank for the breaking system....it should pull around 26 inches of vacuum at the diverter.......

it is sounding like something is getting plugged and then releasing....a problem like this is going to be the hardest to find because he was telling me the thing can run 3 weeks with no problem then start back up again....could be an exhaust issue...plugged catalytic converter and is causing a back lash issue...could be a PTO issue...could be a bad sensor some where...I have seen A/C clutches just kick in for no reason at all....could be something wrong in the exhaust break system and it may be coming on....If it was in the vacuum system then it would be effecting the truck and machine at all times....None of these trucks are the same...for all we know there could be a hidden filter in one of the lines that for shits and grins some one put in......It will be one of those hit and miss issues until we can either find it or it finally gives out....

 

[Carpet Cleaning Fool]

If it were engine vacuum the blower and engine RPM's would go up and down simultaneously. Currently, the engine RPM's go up while the blower RPM's go down.

The load on the engine gets lighter causing the engine RPM's to go up. the PTO shaft is slowing down causing the blower RPM's to go down.

It's got to be slipage in the PTO or something wrong with the transmission. (Vlatimir at AT help me eliminate electrical cuz if the PTO was popping in and out there would be a loud "clunk" from engaging/disingaging).

The gauge I installed today will help determine if it's tranny or PTO. Now, next time the gremlin rears it head I'll look for a pressure drop. If there's a significant drop I'll know it's the tranny. If pressure remains unchanged I'll know it's the PTO.

p]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bYXfCChbvQp]

 

[Larry Cobb]

George;

If it were engine vacuum the blower and engine RPM's would go up and down simultaneously. Currently, the engine RPM's go up while the blower RPM's go down.

The load on the engine gets lighter causing the engine RPM's to go up. the PTO shaft is slowing down causing the blower RPM's to go down.

It's got to be slipage in the PTO or something wrong with the transmission.

For those conditions to happen, I would guess belt slippage. Is the idler tight enough?

That might be caused by the blower requiring more HP to turn,
with other factors.

I hope you find the problem.

Larrry

 

[Erik]

George i'm still going with the PTO. Load it up, if it slips until you let it up, you found the problem.


Try it when it's hot!

 

[Carpet Cleaning Fool]

Might have eliminated transmission because when we attached the guage directly to it the pressure was dead on.

everything seems to be pointing to the PTO.

Thanks!

n]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-q2M7c1ZuIn]

 

[Carpet Cleaning Fool]

Found the problem.

Here's a video of the gremlin in action. Notice how the RPM's go up?

m]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b25k7BMd1P0m]

Here's a picture of the inside of the PTO. See the 4 bearings laying on the bench? They fell out of the race when we removed the gear shaft. They could have found their way into the transmission given enough time. Also, the main gear was wobbling and one shim was completely missing and the other was worn waffer thin. I'm certain the clutch pack is totally smoked too. No doubt this is the source of the problem.

the inside "Case" and Main Gear are scored. Not sure if it's rebuildable. Looking to purchase replacement. Anyone got a source? Also, I'm replacing with a chelsea vs. the OEM Muncie and I have some part # questions if anyone is savvy along those lines?

Thanks!

 

[West]

sounds like you might have found your problem, but.....When I first read your post it sounded exactly like my experience with my Venturi/Vortex, with the exception that mine would shut off a well. I chased the issue and did everything it sounds like you did, finally figured out it was in the "blower engage" switches contacts. Took it out, Googled the company and ordered one. Problem was fixed. Vlad/Aerotech did not have one, don't have a lot of parts for the real early ones.

 

[Carpet Cleaning Fool]

Problem fixed!!!

That POS Muncie blasted several grams of metal shavings into the transmission. Don't ask me how but the transmission is still alive.

The Chelsea we installed is far supieror to the Muncie! Look closely and you'll notice the muncie oils the clutch pack and the Chelsea oils the needle bearings and gear shaft. In otherwords, while driving around town the muncie bearings are starving for oil while the Chelsea bearings are enjoying a nice bath. It constantly oils the bearings from the inside out. Sweet design!

I didn't realize how loud the old PTO was until installing the new. If anyone has a loud whine it might be good to check before it takes out the transmission. A good place to start would be to pull the pan and inspect the screen too.

This took about 7 hours all together.

 

[dealtimeman]

what was the model number exactly as you ordered it?

 

[steve g]

you know I just thought of something, you hear yorkie chime in all the time when it involves selling his machines, I can't think of a single time I have heard him respond when someone has a technical issue, you would think a guy in a van down by the river selling machines would at least have an intimate technical knowledge of the machines, instead york leaves that for everyone else, which goes exactly with what I have said all along, york let the machines be for the most part designed and built by whomever was the vendor of the moment. he told them what the machines needed to do, they figured out how to do it. with that said I know aerotech was cast as a bunch of skalleywags but they had more to do with the actual design of the machine than shawn ever did.

if your vortex is having issues, take it to your blueline dealer and have them fix it, if they can't maybe shawn can use that as fuel for his arbitration battle.

 

[Carpet Cleaning Fool]

what was the model number exactly as you ordered it?

Chelsea PTO 270ADKUP-B5XD

1999 Vortex 777

82% gear ratio

$1204.00 after tax and delivery from local chelsea dealer.

 

[Carpet Cleaning Fool]

1st job out of the gates with it was $240 for 4 average sized rooms.

Damn I love my big truck!!!

 

[dealtimeman]

thanks will be ordering one for the shelf.

 

[Erik]

George i'm still going with the PTO. Load it up, if it slips until you let it up, you found the problem.


Try it when it's hot!

 

[Mikey P]

you know I just thought of something, you hear yorkie chime in all the time when it involves selling his machines, I can't think of a single time I have heard him respond when someone has a technical issue, you would think a guy in a van down by the river selling machines would at least have an intimate technical knowledge of the machines, instead york leaves that for everyone else, which goes exactly with what I have said all along, york let the machines be for the most part designed and built by whomever was the vendor of the moment. he told them what the machines needed to do, they figured out how to do it. with that said I know aerotech was cast as a bunch of skalleywags but they had more to do with the actual design of the machine than shawn ever did.

if your vortex is having issues, take it to your blueline dealer and have them fix it, if they can't maybe shawn can use that as fuel for his arbitration battle.

100% correct in almost every regard, why should a BL dealer be versed in 777 issues?

 

[Chris A]

They bought the brand, shouldn't that require them to support the past models?

 

[Carpet Cleaning Fool]

Kevin at Blueline gave me the part number for the replacement pto. So yes, they support the 777 as does Aerotec who originally built the unit.

But, when it comes to innermitten electrical issues, such as mikey experienced (fooking cry baby), you may have to figure it out on your own.

Legend has stated they still support Vortex and working on a new design as we speak. I have no reason to doubt them.

 

[Carpet Cleaning Fool]

Here's a video of the new PTO in action.

If you compare it to the "smoked PTO" video above you'll notice the new one isn't as loud.


a]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTAYATjDVS4a]

 

[dealtimeman]

is sais the video wont load.

 

[Carpet Cleaning Fool]

That's weird!

Here it is again.

I'll pm you this youtube link too http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTAYATjDVS4

9]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTAYATjDVS49]

Here's the video of the old PTO in action:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b25k7BMd1P0

9]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b25k7BMd1P09]

 

[BradFenstermaker]

George the old PTO sounded like a boat in rough water.

New one runs nice and smooth, did the vac seem better after replacement?

Let me know you receive the goods would ya!

 

[amazingcleansc]

That's weird!

Here it is again.

I'll pm you this youtube link too http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTAYATjDVS4

m]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTAYATjDVS4m]

Here's the video of the old PTO in action:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b25k7BMd1P0

m]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b25k7BMd1P0m]

What is that shiny thing with hoses running out of it in front of your PTO?

 

[Carpet Cleaning Fool]

Bump,

is this what your's is doing Ron?
if you watch the driveshaft to the pto slows down as the rpm's go up.

before pto replacement
http://youtu.be/b25k7BMd1P0

after
[video=youtube;sTAYATjDVS4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=sTAYATjDVS4[/video]

Btw, Better late than never. Thanks Zipper Erik! You diagnosed my pto problem first try.