Water damage pricing poll

JeffCross · Jan 23, 2014

Do you create your own water damage pricing, or are you strong-armed by the adjuster? Cleanfax has a new poll:

http://www.cleanfax.com/polls/28

Should take you .0156 minutes to complete it.

dealtimeman · Jan 23, 2014

We just use xactimate, as it makes it a lot easier than arguing over price variances and or overall invoice acceptance.

Desk Jockey · Jan 23, 2014

You? You like to argue! :rockon:

dealtimeman · Jan 23, 2014

Only if they don't think my "fair" bill is "FAIR"!

And we all know it is fair, so just pay me as I can and will wait for payment as long as it takes.

Desk Jockey · Jan 23, 2014

Send me that picture of you in front of your vette! I need it for my presentation.

dealtimeman · Jan 23, 2014

I don't know what you are talking about?

Desk Jockey · Jan 23, 2014

Right!

Its in your garage....blue 2014 vette loaded....ring a bell?

Send me an invoice for the drying equipment and air scrubbers too.........deduct the water job and don't try to make me pay for a car I don't get to drive either!

TomKing · Jan 23, 2014

Really strong armed by the adjuster?

Xactimate and vendor programs are just like a formulary for your health insurance plan. What is the big deal?

You are pricing for volume and uniformity in billing.

Car repair businesses do it, roofers do it, why in our industry is it looked at so negatively?

Focus on what you can get working with them not what you loose.

JeffCross said:
Do you create your own water damage pricing, or are you strong-armed by the adjuster? Cleanfax has a new poll:

http://www.cleanfax.com/polls/28

Should take you .0156 minutes to complete it.

steve g · Jan 23, 2014

xactimate is so much easier. if you can't make a ton of money using it there is something very wrong with your company. the guys that are estimators around here that work for restoration companies are the highest paid people in the industry its normal for a good estimator to pull down 150k in salary. why because a missed click or there means everything. so you have to be good at using the program. good at knowing which company you are working with on that job and you need to know what you can get away with charging. if you don't like xactimate pricing on something, OVERRIDE IT. I do that all the time and adjust the price when I need to. there are all other sorts of ways of estimating something and getting the money out of it you need. and example would be on a roofing job, my sub estimate was pretty high and my margin wasn't enough, so we did have 2 layers of roofing, so what I did was charge for take off double and got an extra dumpster that we got by not needing. but I ended up with the margin I needed. you just have to know what the heck your doing.

SMRBAP · Jan 23, 2014

Even with Xactimate prices - there is still a more than fair amount of strong arming by adjusters happening. Refusal of ESRV/D, after hours rates, BSC's, EQD refusal on cat III's, approving your mitigation scope then 2 weeks after the loss writing what they felt it took... list goes on.

Cars break, new structures need roofs, people always get sick/hurt, etc - what I'm getting at is in those instances there is a constant revolving and residual need. Not the case in the disaster restoration industry. If it doesn't rain, freeze, blow, or burn - we have no work to court.

I have a small fortune in equipment that can and has sat on shelves for 300+ days out of a year, and a high operational cost to that end. So when it's called into action - I of course expect to be paid in full (as per industry standardized rates) for services rendered - not have the situation turn into a third world bazaar where I have to haggle about industry standard practices and pricing.

I don't court adjusters for business any longer, so I really don't care if they love me or hate me, I do the job properly and bill as per a system they had a hand in developing. There are less time consuming & costly ways to get the Hydro-X's pulling water and the fans off the shelves. I can think of two very large restoration only operations that went belly up in recent years for having all their eggs in that basket.

Desk Jockey · Jan 23, 2014

We're seen as the high guys in our market yet a deception is being pulled on the the insurance companies right under their noses by their very vendors. We had a adjuster stop by a few days ago to settle on a claim. While he was here he mentioned he had a question, off topic about a drying job he was handling.

It seems a preferred vendor removed all the drywall yet left airmovers every ten feet for three days. Better yet, within those three days no one ever showed up to monitor and see if the equipment was even necessary.

They were two to three times what we would have charged to save the drywall and yet they saved nothing. They double dipped, they charged full boat for drying the structure, removal and replacement. Yet we are seen as high and they are used because they work for vendor rates. Sheeeet!

Those boys are handing out beatings and instead of being reprimanded, they are patted on the back.

Line items rates don't mean diddle the real need if there is even a need, isn't addressed. Dumbasses!

dealtimeman · Jan 23, 2014

The only question adjusters usually hit us with is, we don't believe you needed that much dehumidification. I just explain some mumbo jumbo as to why it was needed. Then I explain I can remove 1 dehu and add supervisory hours and assistant tech hours along with charge them for every trash bag, safety glasses and hand gloves, along with other little nitpicking line items and they say ok lets not deal with all of that we'll cut you a check today. I say thanks.

Other than that I love the couple of insurance companies that say they dont pay basic service charges. I say don't sorry give five minutes and select all areas/rooms in the estimate and charge cleaning tech hours to each individual area and remove the basic service charges of $160 and now they are going to pay me $485 for the cleaning tech that took a couple days to clean the whole house.

Most of the adjusters will straight tell you we dont pay bsc but just add cleaning tech hours and we are good.

steve g · Jan 23, 2014

indyallpro said:
Even with Xactimate prices - there is still a more than fair amount of strong arming by adjusters happening. Refusal of ESRV/D, after hours rates, BSC's, EQD refusal on cat III's, approving your mitigation scope then 2 weeks after the loss writing what they felt it took... list goes on.

Cars break, new structures need roofs, people always get sick/hurt, etc - what I'm getting at is in those instances there is a constant revolving and residual need. Not the case in the disaster restoration industry. If it doesn't rain, freeze, blow, or burn - we have no work to court.

I have a small fortune in equipment that can and has sat on shelves for 300+ days out of a year, and a high operational cost to that end. So when it's called into action - I of course expect to be paid in full (as per industry standardized rates) for services rendered - not have the situation turn into a third world bazaar where I have to haggle about industry standard practices and pricing.

I don't court adjusters for business any longer, so I really don't care if they love me or hate me, I do the job properly and bill as per a system they had a hand in developing. There are less time consuming & costly ways to get the Hydro-X's pulling water and the fans off the shelves. I can think of two very large restoration only operations that went belly up in recent years for having all their eggs in that basket.

I had a state farm adjuster try to tell me they don't pay service call recently. thats a new one because I hadn't got that complaint before. I just said look, that covers travel time, vehicle costs, answer service etc. then I said that sounds like a deal your vendors make. if you want to make us a vendor we can talk about that, but our costs are higher because the work is not spoon fed. I don't have a big deal with the base service charges its normally a small amount, if its too much a problem then I say I need to put minimums in instead. as to the vendors. I think insurance companies would be shocked at how these "vendors" have figured out ways to make the money back in other areas and with other methods. setting extra equipment is one, heck lying about the equipment onsite. I could go on and on. if your willing to be dishonest the limits are endless.

I for one love it when a company pays me direct and prompt. believe me if I know this is happening I am more careful about my charges, before I enter something I think do I need to classify that as heavy extraction or regular. there are tons of judgment calls made when putting the bill together. if a company treats mine fairly I return the favor as best I can.

tmdry · Jan 24, 2014

Have any of you guys been to the Xactmare seminar in Salt Lake City?

Mark Saiger · Jan 24, 2014

Not sure you guys are aware, but base service fees has been disabled now in the past couple months for Xactimate....at least in our area.

I use Xactmate because that is what they all want. If I tweak with the numbers on a certain item, they always change it back....so, you just have to find other things to bill to make up money in another area.

All the above mentioned is why I backed off on restoration....and many other reasons from events in our area.

Oh the stories I could tell over some beers!

I am not even doing any tear out anymore. Just doing dry down and run. If it needs tearing out, I get a contractor on site to fight with the insurance companies. I make sure it is dry and sill plates are dry and clean and they can start the rebuild.

Most adjusters around here don't care about the numbers for dry down....but I DO! I also am the type that will follow the standards and guidelines and dry it if it can be dried vs tear out.

If you are at Mikey's Fest....I will be more than happy to share some of my past few years eventful stories!

For now....I am going to go take Jeff's poll....should be fun!

Mark Saiger

Desk Jockey · Jan 24, 2014

tmdry said:
Have any of you guys been to the Xactmare seminar in Salt Lake City?

Many years ago we sent a couple to Dallas for training, one of there road seminars. Of course the version has changed several times since .

Desk Jockey · Jan 24, 2014

Saiger" data-source="post: 4266399" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch">
Mark Saiger said:

Not sure you guys are aware, but base service fees has been disabled now in the past couple months for Xactimate....at least in our area.

I use Xactmate because that is what they all want. If I tweak with the numbers on a certain item, they always change it back....so, you just have to find other things to bill to make up money in another area.

All the above mentioned is why I backed off on restoration....and many other reasons from events in our area.

Oh the stories I could tell over some beers!

I am not even doing any tear out anymore. Just doing dry down and run. If it needs tearing out, I get a contractor on site to fight with the insurance companies. I make sure it is dry and sill plates are dry and clean and they can start the rebuild.

Most adjusters around here don't care about the numbers for dry down....but I DO! I also am the type that will follow the standards and guidelines and dry it if it can be dried vs tear out.

If you are at Mikey's Fest....I will be more than happy to share some of my past few years eventful stories!

For now....I am going to go take Jeff's poll....should be fun!

Mark Saiger

Click to expand...

I would agree with all that Mark. In our case we have so many clients that would call us anyway we couldn't get away from it if we wanted, which we don't.

Of all the water losses we did last week most of the larger ones were businesses that are self insured or our bill is under there deductible. They don't like our bills anymore than the insurance companies but they do see the value in our service. We get to them fast, get them dry fast and they get back up operating with little loss of time. We still have to deal with insurance companies but at least some of the work is non insurance. :neutral:

SMRBAP · Jan 28, 2014

I see a lot of the same as Doc behind PSP's - they give discounts to dry, then dry and tearout - when it's absolutely clear it could be saved. Seems the up front discounts blind the insurers. Restoration by definition is to salvage. They do little to none of that these days.

Steve - keep in mind, many adjusters are so used to working with their PSP, they either don't know or have forgotten that ESRV/D, after hours, etc - are valid charges. I serve up kindness in my first rebuttal, if they don't move we let them know the customer gets back charged and they'll be the ones to have to fight it or pay it.

Desk Jockey · Jan 28, 2014

Yea it’s a game and while it would be easy to play the game, we’re not crooks. We would be no different than they are. We’re not going to use or charge for something that’s not warranted. That’s not us. :madd:

They would rather spoon feed those that are taking advantage of them than to work with honest restorers. We will work for anyone but sure is nice to be appreciated. Not given the third degree when we really know who the crooks are. :angry:

I’d much rather work for the fortune 500, they recognize the value we offer them. We had a loss Sunday, water main in a warehouse. 4-trucks were extracting for 4-hours. Minimal equipment left they had great ventilation and it was just concrete.

The facilities guy just praised us, he kept going on and on how great we were. The bill will be around 5K and they won’t complain one bit. In fact they always pay us fast, its direct deposit. :icon_cool:

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dealtimeman · Jan 28, 2014

Not to vier of (not sure of spelling) track here but what Indy just posted is what bothers me the most about the ad industry as a whole.

We are they to mitigate the loss by saving all property that can be saved, at least that was the way I was taught. Now days most of larger wd companies are very quick to tear out even on fresh water losses and that doesn't make sense to me most of the time.

Desk Jockey · Jan 28, 2014

Yea there can be a conflict of interest when you also do the put back. Such as my example they were paid to remove it, paid for (3) of drying and then paid to put it back. :icon_rolleyes:

Equipment was setup per the standard, an airmover every 10-ft. But saved nothing! :eekk:

Somebody is too busy looking at line items and not the overall bill.

dealtimeman · Jan 29, 2014

I love turning in large loss invoices and explaining there are just a few sets of holes to fill and to paint some walls and that's all the build back necessary.

I would rather have $15,000 on my drying bill and have a $2-3500.00 build back, then have a $3-5000.00 drying bill and have a $15,000.00 build back any day of the week.

The problem I see is more and more companies are construction companies in nature instead of water damage mitigation companies and insurance companies seem to be ok with that more and more.

SMRBAP · Jan 29, 2014

Some insurers have two separate divisions for mitigation and rebuild. 3x I have found myself pitted between the sides - one wants me to tear it all out so it dries in 2-3, the other wants me to keep it together and is perfectly fine with a 5 day dry-out.

Once ended up in a dispute where the insurer stalled payment to fight me. Dryout was $10k, repair was $1k. $11k total. Mitigation side stated we should have torn it out day 1.......... repair side was happy as pigs in mud.

Even after showing them (line by line in Xactimate) their way would have been a $6k tearout and dry..... but then with a $12k rebuild $18k total.... they caused me great problems.

Anymore the balance of good and evil lies with each individual adjuster. Are they realistic - do they know what the heck they are doing - are they seeking to make the big bonus this year.

steve g · Jan 29, 2014

travelers is one I quit working with, what I do with them is I just don't bother talking to them and I just give the bill to the customer and let them turn it in. the problem with them is the bills are reviewed by superivsors and the adjusters end up knowing what draws red flags. so what they do is try to tell me to change things on the invoice to things I didn't actually do, like add more equipment, like charge this charge instead of the one we actually did. the problem with this is when I go to collect from the customer they nit pick the bill and I have gotten a hair cut, try explaining to the customer that you did something and didn't charge for it then you charged for something you didn't do to make up for it. I have also had them ask me to take off items and they would get me caught back up on the next job.

lately I haven't had as much issues with bills as I have in the past. I hear stories of companies doing all sorts of things. tear out and filling the place up with equipment for 4 and 5 days. then with the slow down of the economy lots of general contractors thought oh there is nothing to build so lets get into the restoration business. fortunately some have actually went out of business around me.

KeithCo · Feb 6, 2014

Freakin' Bastard Vendors!

Desk Jockey · Feb 6, 2014

LOL

Don't you just hate those guys! :winky:

But seriously, its not so much the vendor's that are the problem, its the insurance companies.

Vendors can change but the systems would remain the same. Vendors lose on both ends the have to pay the franchise plus work for cheaper "vendor rates". When squeezed that tight, they only have two choices work faster or work the numbers.

Its a game I really don't care to play. :errf:

KeithCo · Feb 6, 2014

You forgot "work smarter".

Sounds like an excellent presentation at that fest thing.......... I'm sure you'll knock it out of the park.

Desk Jockey · Feb 6, 2014

You forgot "work smarter".

No I didn't Keith.

We are talking vendors aren't we?

Water damage pricing poll

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