What the heck is a cleaner to do???

[John Watson]

Sorry, I am really confused.
Sat eve we attempted to clean the main office area (1800sf) of a 5300 sf job. One of the requirments by the owner was TM with very hot water. The carpet had dark TL and it almost looked like an Eclips was happing next to the area where the chair pads were lifted.

Did 1/2 with ProChems Olifin pre spray and the other 1/2 with Trashed HP, after 3 hours we called it a night. It looked better now than when we started, buy still looked like hell. If couldn't see the before and after, the question would be Did you clean it yet??? We new we were going to handle the wic bac with a bonnet machine and had built it into our bid.

Last night we went back in and and it still looked just as bad to both Helen and I.
I unloaded the cimex and mixed up some Snake Oil that Jeremy sent to me to try out.

First thing I did was redo the 1800 we did Sat night, SOB 1 hour later you could see the worn TA's, but they looked clean and brite, almost as good as the untrafficed areas. I then did the 3400 sq remaining while Helen and daughter Jolene did the 54 stairs.

3 1/2 hours later the lady incharge of the job arrived to rearm the security system and lock up after us. She was tickled pink, She had thought last nights cleaning looked good but was really shocked, impressed and really pleased at the outcome tonight. The other 3400 sq was just done with snake oil and it looks terrific!!!!

This is just like the old days and the dry clean only tags on upholstry.
Damn, my delema is, Why did I spend the first nights 3 hrs trying to wet clean it??

 

[Brian R]

You probably did a great job of getting out the majority of the soil the first night but you are not going to get the tips of the carpet with HWE on some carpets. I used to post bonnet every commmercial job. I would mix my Procyon thick through my rinse and then I could Bonnet without harming the fibers.

Worked like a charm. I know it's real but I am not sure why.

 

[Noidios]

I've experienced the same thing you did. It can be frustrating putting in all the extra work, but the truth is that all of that extra soil around the chairs needed to be removed. IMO extracting first and then encapping is the best technique for this situation.

When I do I job, it is my intent to do the best job possible and keep the customer for life. By using the above technique, you will be able to keep their carpets looking better longer since they are less likely to wear as fast.

 

[Steve Manier]

Because the owner told you too? shiteatinggrin

I mainly do commercial and I havent found anything that will beat the Cimex and Encap combo. I use Release it.

IDAS what the naysayers say. It cant be beat! Period! Now Residential is another story. I always use the TM.

I just hate it when they start snooping around wanting to know about the "process". :shock:


Another thing I have found is that alot of cleaners that try Encap don't do it right. They speed through the job, dont do a THOROUGH pre vacuum, dont understand the flow and ratio of the machine and chemical, get mediocre results and start bashing it. I go about 1k sq ft an hour and get outstanding results. On Commercial carpet cleaning days, my 50k TM and Van sit in the parking lot while my 3k Encap set up makes me all the money.

If i ever had to, I would even go as far as dragging the hoses in a building, crank up the TM (just to please Mr. or Mrs. so and so) and Encap away with the Cimex.

Its not about being easier because its not much easier or faster to Encap when done right. Its about the best results and happy customers and Encap is king on commercial.

Steve

 

[topnotchman]

yeah I'm sure you at least got a good amount of soil out with the truckmount the first night. I dont really like commercial carpets, some can be so difficult sometimes. I have to Encap a 2,000 square foot office that my hoses wont reach on the 3rd story. Not too soiled, so I'm gonna try the Encap route on it, hope it works well.

 

[lance]

John, you wrote what cleaners you used, but did you agitate the PS before rinsing?

Do you pre-vac your commercial jobs? If so, with what?

How long ago was this building's carpet cleaned?

 

[Willy P]

John, you wrote what cleaners you used, but did you agitate the PS before rinsing?

Do you pre-vac your commercial jobs? If so, with what?

How long ago was this building's carpet cleaned?

Watson's the real deal. The Great Oz smuggled him up here in a suitcase once (just to meet me in person). Where you using your JEM?
When ya comin' up for bike ride John?

 

[green guy]

We bill out almost 100,000 encaping com carpet. those tl's probably had a build up of solvency and petro chems. Like trying to wash oily pasta sauce out of a tuperware bowl "lipiphilic"

 

[steve frasier]

you guys are not giving the Snake Oil the credit it deserves

 

[Warren Wallace]

DO you scotchgard after encapping?

 

[Jeremy]

Was that High Foam or Low Foam John? I don't remember which I sent to you. Either way I'm glad it made your customer happy & made you some $cratch...

 

[hogjowl]

John:

I agree with the premis of your original post. My results have been similar comparing both systems. I don't understand why and probably never will until somebody does a realistic laboratory study on just what encapsulation cleaning really does. (No offense to Rick Gelinas, John G. or Steve, but I want a study by someone who is not alligned with encap. producers or sellers) I wish Shaw would do one.

I certainly am no scientist and I can't properly put into words what I am even thinking here, but it would not surprise me to learn that the encap solution somehow fills in the micro-occlusions on commercial olefin carpets and reflects light in a way that it "hides" the soil left there. I simply do not believe that the system actually cleans better than a proper HWE cleaning that encorporates the proper steps necessary for commercial cleaning. However, I do believe that the encap system hides the remaining soil and fiber damage better than the HWE system does.

 

[Ryan]

John:

I agree with the premis of your original post. My results have been similar comparing both systems. I don't understand why and probably never will until somebody does a realistic laboratory study on just what encapsulation cleaning really does. (No offense to Rick Gelinas, John G. or Steve, but I want a study by someone who is not alligned with encap. producers or sellers) I wish Shaw would do one.

I certainly am no scientist and I can't properly put into words what I am even thinking here, but it would not surprise me to learn that the encap solution somehow fills in the micro-occlusions on commercial olefin carpets and reflects light in a way that it "hides" the soil left there. I simply do not believe that the system actually cleans better than a proper HWE cleaning that encorporates the proper steps necessary for commercial cleaning. However, I do believe that the encap system hides the remaining soil and fiber damage better than the HWE system does.

This begs the question, which is better.. to clean the carpet or to leave it looking better.

 

[The Great Oz]

The pigman and others are correct. The first step was cleaning, that is, actually removing soil, the second step was soil hiding, and the perfect combination/solution to the problem presented by this job. We've used extraction followed by encapsulation on several too-far-gone carpets and had them come out pretty well, even an old gray cut-pile in one of our tenant spaces.


PS: Marty,
Both the CRI-sponsored tests by PTL and Shaw labs testing for their own use found that encap "cleaning" didn't remove much soil.

Which is why it remains listed as a between-cleanings appearance management process.

 

[lance]

I bet commercial carpet would react better to HWE (and vice versa) if there was a pad underneath it.

There is no doubt that when you HWE you are also dealing with what has been spilled on the carpet and the dirt that has been ground into it. You are also dealing with all the cleanings (or lack of) that have come before you. Encap and low moisture methods do not have to deal with this as much as HWE does.

I think the best way to clean commercial is to scrub, HWE, and then OP the traffic lanes. After two or three cleanings the carpet would be in very good shape and easy to now just use encap for a maintaince clean.

 

[Desk Jockey]

PS: Marty,
Both the CRI-sponsored tests by PTL and Shaw labs testing for their own use found that encap "cleaning" didn't remove much soil.

Oz was that testing with the XRF gun?

I agree encapsulation works best as appearance management more so than as corrective cleaning.

As for testing, if it is with the XRF I wouldn't trust it.

 

[Robbie]

John:

I agree with the premis of your original post. My results have been similar comparing both systems. I don't understand why and probably never will until somebody does a realistic laboratory study on just what encapsulation cleaning really does. (No offense to Rick Gelinas, John G. or Steve, but I want a study by someone who is not alligned with encap. producers or sellers) I wish Shaw would do one.

I certainly am no scientist and I can't properly put into words what I am even thinking here, but it would not surprise me to learn that the encap solution somehow fills in the micro-occlusions on commercial olefin carpets and reflects light in a way that it "hides" the soil left there. I simply do not believe that the system actually cleans better than a proper HWE cleaning that encorporates the proper steps necessary for commercial cleaning. However, I do believe that the encap system hides the remaining soil and fiber damage better than the HWE system does.

Shaw had a guy come out to summer fest last year in michigan and talk about the study that they did. Maybe mark has some video of it?

 

[The Great Oz]

Quote:
PS: Marty,
Both the CRI-sponsored tests by PTL and Shaw labs testing for their own use found that encap "cleaning" didn't remove much soil.
Oz was that testing with the XRF gun?

I agree encapsulation works best as appearance management more so than as corrective cleaning.

As for testing, if it is with the XRF I wouldn't trust it.

Both checked how much soil was removed by soil load transferred to bonnets and by volume of soil found in the vacuum bag post-encap. They realized that the encap residue made it difficult to judge residue by before and after weight of the test carpet. Anyway, the issue with the XRF designer soil was that it could be removed too easily, so if they had used that protocol I would think a method that won't take out the XRF test soil would be doubly-damned.

The ghost of Jimmy could be felt when they said to post-vacuum your encap job and see what you find in your vacuum. You'll find next to nothing, so the idea that encapsulated soil will turn into dust that you can remove with subsequent vacuuming is a marketing myth.

 

[Desk Jockey]

The ghost of Jimmy could be felt when they said to post-vacuum your encap job and see what you find in your vacuum. You'll find next to nothing, so the idea that encapsulated soil will turn into dust that you can remove with subsequent vacuuming is a marketing myth.

Bryan it sounds just like him, and we all thought he was crazy. He is crazy!

 

[Jeremy]

I agree encapsulation works best as appearance management more so than as corrective cleaning.

I think that depends on what you're attempting to correct, whether or not you're doing "scrub and run" shampoo or some type of absorbant pad cleaning with your shampoo and of course, the skill of the operator with the respective systems... Of course, encapsulation/shampoo is a very efficient way to maintain the appearance of a carpet and PROFIT MARGIN.

That said, i have done restorative cleanings with Truckmounted HWE, Portable HWE, Bonnet OP as well as HWE, bonnet &/or OP in tandem. You can get great results on some seriously trashed carpet with VLM BUT sometimes it is just more efficient (and profitable) to just pull hoses... And yes you can remove more soil with HWE but we're often times judged by the appearance of the carpet.

Of course with mold, bodily fluids or situations calling for subsurface extraction your wand/claw are still "must have" items. All the methods have thier place and better chemistry and skill can expand the "realm of possibility" for a given system... I regularly PadCap restaurants... They havent seen a wand in almost 2 years and they still come out great...

I bet commercial carpet would react better to HWE (and vice versa) if there was a pad underneath it.

That is a simple matter of airflow... On a direct glue down (even with a glide which helps a TON) the airflow is reduced (and therefore the lift) to a degree. The reduced vacuum leads to over wetting/wicking issues. This is why many steam cleaners struggle with commercial carpet... VLM solves this problem 2 ways:
1) Less moisture is introduced in the first place
2) The polymer retards the wicking process among other benefits.

In conclusion:

you guys are not giving the Snake Oil the credit it deserves

Love it or hate it VLM is becoming more mainstream, viable, accepted and affordable for cleaners and thier commercial customers... But don't sell your TM just yet...

Great debate in this thread... I'm glad it's remained calm/civil so far. Keep it going.