While we're on about Genesis water issues...

[Jack May]

I've got/had a problem with my Genesis for almost 6 months now. The Bethels over in Aussie have been trying to help me but we're no closer to resolving the issue, rather it's been by passed so it can earn it's keep.

This machine has worked flawlessly for almost 4 years, then we started loosing water every now and again.

The water line will be hooked up, and about 1/2 hour into the job, you'd run out of water, check the water box and it'd dry... yet the supply hose is still got heaps of pressure.

This only happened from time to time and usually, disconnecting the unit, allowing a 10 minute cool down and all was right for another week or so till it hit again. This went on till the frequency got up to almost once a day and then the 10 minute cool down didn't work either.

I went through different scenarios with the Bethels and also my Pump guy and my auto electrician. After testing and cleaning different parts, I eventually over a period of a couple of months replaced the float switch unit, the dema valve and solinoid assembly complete and the fuses and the relay switch. After each step, it'd correct itself for anything from 1-3 days and then reverse back to it's old problem.

After the last 'fix' which happened to be the relay and fuses, it'll only fill on the slow speed and so for normal cleaning, you keep running out of water and have to wait for it to catch up and then you're right for another 10 minutes.

The Bethel's have sold me a small ballcock float unit to mount inside the water box and it's now working through that but I've spent over $1000 on parts and labour and still no closer to having the issue resolved.

Does anyone else have any suggestions?

John

 

[Jack May]

No demand pump.

John

 

[Greenie]

Emailed the President of PowerClean, Jim Nape, here are his comments:

I went through different scenarios with the Bethels and also my Pump guy and my auto electrician. After testing and cleaning different parts, I eventually over a period of a couple of months replaced the float switch unit, the dema valve and solenoid assembly complete and the fuses and the relay switch. After each step, it'd correct itself for anything from 1-3 days and then reverse back to its old problem.

"I have seen this on older units normally when the ambient temperatures are very hot (hot summer months) and there is poor ventilation through the truck. If the truck is loaded up, it creates an issue whereas the air cannot circulate through and out of the truck essentially causing a "hot spot" around the unit. We had a customer last summer that has 2 units identically installed. The customer had put his chemical shelving behind the unit across the rear of the machine. The result of this was poor air circulation and excessive heat. We installed a powered roof vent over the unit (exhausting out) and it solved his issue. He was experiencing the exact same issue with the inlet solenoid."

"When replacing the float assembly, it is essential to solder the 4 lead wires together. They are very small wires (22g I believe) and the idea of "crimping" them works but it may cause intermittent concerns/challenges."

"The relay needs to be secured properly to the socket with a tie strap once it is installed. Even though it functions without it, we strap it in place in an effort to prevent any concerns."

After the last 'fix' which happened to be the relay and fuses, it'll only fill on the slow speed and so for normal cleaning, you keep running out of water and have to wait for it to catch up and then you're right for another 10 minutes.

"This does not sound like it is related the above scenario. The inlet solenoids have a "Y" strainer or a 1/2" inlet strainer depending on the unit. this sounds to me like it may be the culprit. Check the inlet filter to ensure that it is clean. If this does not work, there are 4 other items which may cause restriction in the water inlet side of the unit."

"The 2nd is the actual inlet solenoid itself. If there is a poor wire connection, it may not be providing the solenoid with enough current to open it properly or the solenoid may have a piece of debris stuck in it."

"The 3rd is the chemical injector. It too may have something stuck in it (highly unlikely but possible) preventing adequate water flow through the system. The only way to clean this is to remove it from the unit and inspect it."

"The 4thd scenario may be the culprit. The water box has 2 thermal relief valves which prevent the incoming water to the pump from exceeding the pumps heat ratings. (they do not control the water temp and are safety's only) If they are stuck open, they will constantly relieve water into the waste tank."
"If all of the water draw items are on, it may cause the unit to run dry. If the pump is on and engaged, the thermals are stuck open and the APO is on all at the same time the system may run out of water"

"Last but not least, if there is a transfer pump to the unit, it may not be functioning properly."

So it sounds like the thermal releif valves are screwin' ya!

 

[Jack May]

Thanks Greenie.

I'm on a brief lunch break so will try and get to it over the weekend (Friday here) and check a few things and get back to you.

John

 

[Greenie]

What I find interesting is "Brock'sDad" problem was resolved with a good descale.....now as to why, I'll have another email for Jim, cause simple scale is trippin' me out, that must have been a lot of scale to drop pressure while cleaning?

 

[Jack May]

Maybe it's time to descale mine... after 4 years, it probably needs it :shock:

I was also getting a bit of grit through into the dema solinoid valve unit and blocking the holes in the diaphram... that was flushed out in the early stages and no longer presented a problem.

John

 

[Jack May]

Emailed the President of PowerClean, Jim Nape, here are his comments:

I went through different scenarios with the Bethels and also my Pump guy and my auto electrician. After testing and cleaning different parts, I eventually over a period of a couple of months replaced the float switch unit, the dema valve and solenoid assembly complete and the fuses and the relay switch. After each step, it'd correct itself for anything from 1-3 days and then reverse back to its old problem.

"I have seen this on older units normally when the ambient temperatures are very hot (hot summer months) and there is poor ventilation through the truck. If the truck is loaded up, it creates an issue whereas the air cannot circulate through and out of the truck essentially causing a "hot spot" around the unit. We had a customer last summer that has 2 units identically installed. The customer had put his chemical shelving behind the unit across the rear of the machine. The result of this was poor air circulation and excessive heat. We installed a powered roof vent over the unit (exhausting out) and it solved his issue. He was experiencing the exact same issue with the inlet solenoid."

I run a dual slider van and at the moment with the issues, we have the covers off as well. In addition to that, we're just coming out of our winter. There is definitely no build up of heat issue here.

"When replacing the float assembly, it is essential to solder the 4 lead wires together. They are very small wires (22g I believe) and the idea of "crimping" them works but it may cause intermittent concerns/challenges."

I'll check with my auto electrician tomorrow on this as possibly not done and therefore something else that can easily be eliminated as causing or contributing to the problem.

"The relay needs to be secured properly to the socket with a tie strap once it is installed. Even though it functions without it, we strap it in place in an effort to prevent any concerns."

The strap was just slid off and re installed over the new relay switch.

After the last 'fix' which happened to be the relay and fuses, it'll only fill on the slow speed and so for normal cleaning, you keep running out of water and have to wait for it to catch up and then you're right for another 10 minutes.

"This does not sound like it is related the above scenario. The inlet solenoids have a "Y" strainer or a 1/2" inlet strainer depending on the unit. this sounds to me like it may be the culprit. Check the inlet filter to ensure that it is clean. If this does not work, there are 4 other items which may cause restriction in the water inlet side of the unit."

The Y filter has been cleaned initially and then re check numberous times but almost always clean.

"The 2nd is the actual inlet solenoid itself. If there is a poor wire connection, it may not be providing the solenoid with enough current to open it properly or the solenoid may have a piece of debris stuck in it."

If this is the solinoid sitting ontop of the dema, then it's new as of about 2 weeks ago. I haven't yet checked for a blockage on the diaphram but could easily do so to eliminate that possibility.

"The 3rd is the chemical injector. It too may have something stuck in it (highly unlikely but possible) preventing adequate water flow through the system. The only way to clean this is to remove it from the unit and inspect it."

The checmical injector has not been in use for about 12 months since the tech repeatedly lets the supply tube rest against the blower exhausts and keeps melting off the end of it!!! I wonder if it may be contributing to the issue?

"The 4thd scenario may be the culprit. The water box has 2 thermal relief valves which prevent the incoming water to the pump from exceeding the pumps heat ratings. (they do not control the water temp and are safety's only) If they are stuck open, they will constantly relieve water into the waste tank."
"If all of the water draw items are on, it may cause the unit to run dry. If the pump is on and engaged, the thermals are stuck open and the APO is on all at the same time the system may run out of water"

I don't believe that this is the case because when running on a job and 1/2 hour into it you run out of water, when you check the water box, it's bone dry empty. Not a case of other draws leaving insufficient for the pump.

"Last but not least, if there is a transfer pump to the unit, it may not be functioning properly."

We do not run a fresh water tank and supply pump, always connected directly to the water tap on the property we're working at and 9 times out of 10, that normal town supply and pressure.

So it sounds like the thermal releif valves are screwin' ya!

I'd appreciate Jim's feedback on these if you don't mind Greenie, I'll do those two check for the soldering and the diaphrams tomorrow and get back to you on anything I notice.

Cheers, John

 

[Greenie]

"I don't believe that this is the case because when running on a job and 1/2 hour into it you run out of water, when you check the water box, it's bone dry empty. Not a case of other draws leaving insufficient for the pump. "


crap...that is exactly what "brocksdad" reported..... :shock: and he fixed his with a descale.


btw: I know this isn't helping, but is there any reason in particular you have skipped the regular descale process?

 

[Jack May]

ummm too hard basket

I used to do it every couple of years on my old machine that was like 17 years old when I sold it and it was an absolute bear to do... just never get around to doing horrible jobs I guess.

John

 

[floorguy]

ok 1st

KEEP THE MECHANICAL SOLUTION........screw all that automated crap...even more so for water supply....

2nd

what is a good thing to run as a descaler....i need to do mine....(holy shit did the heater have some white goober there)

had to unhook it and use it for a pressure washer heater.... :wink: glad i bought that big beast

 

[Jack May]

OK, someone that is familiar with the Genesis want to give us a quick low down on what to use and what procedure to take?

Please...

John

 

[frank]

Hi John
I have same model as you, and used to have same problem. I fix the problem taking the electric float and replacing it with a hydrominder model 506 from wintrax http://www.windtrax.com/search_results. ... Search.y=0
and never have that problem again.

 

[roro]

If you have been working out west of Palmey you are getting into some of NZ's worst water quality so descaling may be worth a shot.

roro

 

[Greenie]

Hi John
I have same model as you, and used to have same problem. I fix the problem taking the electric float and replacing it with a hydrominder model 506 from wintrax http://www.windtrax.com/search_results. ... Search.y=0
and never have that problem again.

Frank, that weighted float work pretty good eh', thanks for the tip, I'll show it to our customers, I take it the valve is normally in the closed position and as the water level drops the weight opens the valve, if it's completley mechanical it's got to be simple and reliable.

 

[Jack May]

Ok, update.

The diaphram was totally clear.

The Auto Electrician was unsure if he used solder or not. Wants the van back for an hour to re check that for me.

I've de scaled the machine. Took the whole some of about 30 minutes spread over an hour or so while I was doing other stuff. I ran the solution for half hour and then flushed for another half hour. I was amazed at how little crap came out.

I've asked my tech to run with the original system each day and report back if it works or not. He's always got the backup manual system if he does run out of water.

John

 

[Jack May]

OK, since the descale, the original water system has run great... here's hoping it's all fixed.

John