Yet another Peroxide thread...

[dgardner]

I got a couple 'ask the chemist' questions:

I went by the local Sally's to buy some 40vol. She handed me a bottle of "40 volume clear developer". According to the label, it's peroxide and phosphoric acid (stabilizer or buffer I assume?). How would this stuff react if you added it to various presprays? Or mixed it with ammonia/sodium hydroxide? Cloud of death? Would the acid and bases (lye and ammonia) neutralize each other and reduce effectiveness? Just curious.

Also, I have some percarbonate to use up. I'm trying to understand the dilution rate of sodium percarbonate powder as it relates to the strength of liquid peroxide. In other words, how much SP would I use to replace 8 ounces of 40vol?

 

[Lee Stockwell]

Dan when in doubt don't.

Get a little more info first. The ammonia isn't an acid, but you can verify this by investing in a little pH paper and testing your spotters for yourself. It's easy to goof up when all the spotter bottles in some kits are the same color, shape, and size...yet so opposite in effect.

Ask a beautician friend why it's important for their peroxide products to be stabilized, probably more important for her than for us. (Especially if it's your loved one being the client).

more...

 

[Dolly Llama]

I got a couple 'ask the chemist' questions:

I went by the local Sally's to buy some 40vol. She handed me a bottle of "40 volume clear developer". According to the label, it's peroxide and phosphoric acid (stabilizer or buffer I assume?). How would this stuff react if you added it to various presprays? Or mixed it with ammonia/sodium hydroxide? Cloud of death? Would the acid and bases (lye and ammonia) neutralize each other and reduce effectiveness? Just curious.

Also, I have some percarbonate to use up. I'm trying to understand the dilution rate of sodium percarbonate powder as it relates to the strength of liquid peroxide. In other words, how much SP would I use to replace 8 ounces of 40vol?

Dan, I'm not a chemist and don't play one on TV
BUT....what "acid" are you mixing with the juices you mentioned?
Peroxide isn't an acid, it it????
I know a ammonia and lye isn't


A real chem expert might show up....but my "go to" guy (ShawnDaBrain Forsythe) , very well may not add anything to this thread...becuzzz.. "bathtub gin" solutions aren't in vogue with him.

I would hope he would contribute if something was truly hazardous to health and safety
Like mixing bleach and ammonia and creating deadly CHLORINE GAS.. :shock:


edit..I wasn't implying Lee doesn't know his stuff...i already typed my post out before Lee beat me to the trigger


..L.T.A.

 

[dgardner]

Dan, I'm not a chemist and don't play one on TV
BUT....what "acid" are you mixing with the juices you mentioned?

I should have drawn more attention to the bottle contents:

According to the label, it's peroxide and phosphoric acid

Dan when in doubt don't. I'm not - yet!
Get a little more info first. Exactly what I'm doing now ! :wink:
more...

I'm definitely not about to just throw stuff together without knowing the outcome, rest assured. But if she handed me the bottle when I asked for peroxide, others might be in the same situation, and they might not take the time to read the label, so I thought I'd ask... Thanks for lookin out for me tho!

 

[Dolly Llama]

the "developer" is peroxide..you got the right the stuff

I've never tested the PH of it
honestly, never gave it a thought...

I'm glad you akxed

..L.T.A.

 

[dgardner]

I've seen peroxide that just said peroxide, but this is the first time I noticed phosphoric acid on the label. Are you saying that any "peroxide" you buy has phosphoric acid in it?

 

[Shawn Forsythe]

1) Hydrogen Peroxide is a weak acid. Maybe 5 ph @ 1% concentration.

2) Ammonium Hydroxide (what you guys are calling Ammonia) is an alkali. It is oft chose means to accelerate degradation of Hydrogen Peroxide, in a relatively controlled manner. Ammonium Hydroxide is completely volatile, therefore any alkalinity quickly fades upon its evaporation.

3. The amount of phosphoric acid in the (Sally's) Hydrogen Peroxide is a trace amount. Not enough to even change the pH. Various stabilizers are used to help extend shelf life. Phosphoric acid is just one that manufactures will use.

4) Certain acids can have some unpredictable results if combined with hydrogen peroxide. So it is best not to experiment with any acids “on hand” in any manner, to achieve a desired effect. For example, if one uses acetic acid in an effort to accelerate hydrogen peroxide, some of the reaction will create another compound called peroxyacetic acid. Peracetic (peroxyacetic) acid is a highly corrosive organic peroxide that will bleach out most any dye, and degrade natural fibers. Many people who have used this combination literally bleach out all color.

5)

How much SP would I use to replace 8 ounces of 40vol?

Apples and oranges. Sodium Percarbonate is much weaker than 30 volume, and not a suitable replacement in any practical sense. Use Sodium Percarbonate for boosting prespays and diluted hydrogen peroxide for spotting. Sodium Percarbonate is aproximately equal to 9-10 volume peroxide, when dissolved in water at the saturation point. I have heard some people say that Sodium Percarbonate is 27.5% available oxygen, equaling 90 volume. However, Sodium Percarbonate is never used in its dry form, it's dissolved in water, then heated to destabilize the oxygen to then cause it to liberate (effervesce). The liberation is relatively slow, and as I mentioned can't be dissolved any more concentrated than to yield 9 volume.

6) Larry hit the nail on the head. I've been around here long enough to know that if I were to comment on "home remedy" formulas, id just get in a pissing match with someone who says "be a man, mix it stronger", or some other concoction that is likely to cause even more trouble (deadly even). I don't condone using any product that does not have the financial backing of the company who made it. Do you think Sally's is going to come to your aid in the even of a mishap? Do you even get an MSDS from them?.

 

[dgardner]

Thanks Shawn everyone else too. I had seen your caveat earlier about mixing acids with oxidizers, which is why the phosphoric acid raised a red flag for me. The answer about sodium percarbonate is appreciated too, I have some grasp of their relative strengths now.

Agreed, I don't expect you to go out on a limb when it comes to homebrew concoctions. Nope, no MSDS. Point taken.

 

[Jim Pemberton]

For example, if one uses acetic acid in an effort to accelerate hydrogen peroxide, some of the reaction will create another compound called peroxyacetic acid. Peracetic (peroxyacetic) acid is a highly corrosive organic peroxide that will bleach out most any dye, and degrade natural fibers. Many people who have used this combination literally bleach out all color.

Back in the 70's when I thought I knew more than my father and made my own mixes working in his rug plant, I ruined a beautiful brocade dining room chair with what became perocetic acid after my "custom mixing".

There are few mistakes you guys can make that I haven't made. Adolescent ego and responsibility mixed with what I thought was enough chemistry knowledge was a dangerous thing in my life then.

I'm almost sorry you reminded me of that incident Shawn, but if it helps others, I'm happy to share it.