Your expert advice...

[Ken Clean]

Hi, I am new to Mikey's Board. I have found the lots of very useful information on this sight coming from real experts in the Cleaning Industry. So, I thought of asked for your help....
A little background first. In the 70s I build PTO type truck mounts in Canada as well as had a successful cleaning company. Moved to California in the 80s, cleaned carpets and upholstery and built custom slide-in truck mount cleaning units for another 10 or 15 years. Retired from the building and cleaning industry to teach school. Last year I retired from teaching school.
I have had a lot of requests from people who know me, to build them a truck mount. So, now I am back in the business and loving it. Also, my wife says I'm getting fat and lazy so I need the weight reduction provided from operating a cleaning wand...
Here is where I need your expert, professional input. All my truck mounts use heat exchangers. In your experience, what is the best heat exchanger system: "temperature bypass system" and temperature control system?
I thank you in advance for your consideration and input to help me solve this dilemma.
Ken

 

[Captain America]

Ken
Good to have you back I was a school teacher for a while and now teaching par time .
You will get different opinions here..I like kero fuel heat some like propane...
With the new tools glides zipper wands and rotary extractors you need more heat .
Call the judson guys and get some feedback on heat, they have a lot of experience -40 years.
Cap

 

[dgardner]

Welcome Ken! Do you have any pictures of previous truckmounts you have built? Always interested in seeing other peoples work. Do you manufacture your own HX's or source them from someone else?

 

[ruff]

Ken, there's no perfect answer.
It depends on the end consumer, meaning the cleaner.

• Some of us are looking for a flame thrower kind of machine.
• Some care mostly about reliability and are willing to accept less heat.
• Some want to be able to fix it themselves, no proprietary parts, ease of service. Others could care less.
• All of us would prefer heating system that is less costly to fix.
  
• Some do not want the hassle of dealing with two sources of fuel.
• Some will not consider a propane heater in their van.

Which consumer are you looking to serve?

 

[dgardner]

In your experience, what is the best heat exchanger system: "temperature bypass system" and temperature control system?

Ken, I assume you're using the classical process control definitions in your question, where "temperature bypass system" refers to splitting the cold stream where some flow goes through the HX and some bypasses it, with the two mixed to produce the output, and " temperature control system" where all of the cold stream goes through the HX and the hot stream (blower exhaust, engine exhaust, engine coolant, etc.) flow into the HX is varied to achieve temperature setpoint.

In the process industry the bypass system can achieve very tight and very fast control, but you need a 3-way mixing valve that is rated to withstand full system pressure. In a TM system (unless the HX is a preheater) you are talking upwards of 1200-1500 psi. such a control valve would be pretty expensive and specialized, and would need a PLC or other controller as well as sensor(s) and safeties to work, adding to the cost and complexity.

The temperature control system is less precise but way less complex. In the TM world this is most often seen as an exhaust diverter that routes hot exhaust through or around the hot side of the HX. Most often it is simple bang-bang (2-position) control. I think that this type of system would be most likely accepted by the typical cleaner.

 

[Mark Saiger]

Welcome Ken....

My family has been in the cleaning biz a long time, but I am also former Music teacher (25 years) and cleaner as well as my dad....

My dad had done some building and installs, but that was quite some time ago.

We now (and have been long time) Run Butlers....but we do pimp them a bit at times.

Not sure if can help you on the tech items you are looking for, but really glad you are here

 

[Mike Draper]

Hi Ken, I to build my own machines. Ofer is exactly right. You need to offer to your clients what most of them will want. IMO, that will be a simple, easy to fix unit with a good HX system. Unfortunately building a simple machine along with a good HX unit that will actually hold heat is anything but simple. I believe the HX is what complicated things and Mayes machines unreliable. I prefer propane heat for this reason, and I live in a very cold climate. Like Ofer said, to each his own. Good luck with your venture.

 

[Mike Draper]

One more thing, we love pics of projects. Please share any past or present

 

[Captain America]

I would go visit some of the truckmount manufacturers out there in california.
Also go on line and look at steambrite and judson videos.
I have 2 naamco's out of houston ...easy to work on and upgrade if neccesary.
This is what carpet cleaners need:
1. Inexpensive
2. Easy to expand to larger engine and blower
3. Plenty of heat...gotta at least ofer fuel heat as an option
4. Easy to work on by owner if possible or any garage automotive guy
I haven't taken my truckmounts to a carpet cleaning place in over 5 -6 years...
And have replaced 2 heaters and 2 engines

 

[Ken Clean]

Ken
Good to have you back I was a school teacher for a while and now teaching par time .
You will get different opinions here..I like kero fuel heat some like propane...
With the new tools glides zipper wands and rotary extractors you need more heat .
Call the judson guys and get some feedback on heat, they have a lot of experience -40 years.
Cap

Great to hear from you Cap. The Judson guys have been very helpful. They love the propane and the constant heat it provides. To date, I have not had any operating experience with the new cleaning tools such as the zipper and the rotary extractors. A number of months ago, I repaired a truck mount. I went on a job with the owner to make sure his unit was working correctly. He used a rotary extractor (RX 360?). It did a great job. What typs of heater do you use with the kero heater? Is there any soot produced?

 

[Ken Clean]

Welcome Ken! Do you have any pictures of previous truckmounts you have built? Always interested in seeing other peoples work. Do you manufacture your own HX's or source them from someone else?

Hi Dgardner. Thank you for the welcome.
I do have a few pictures of what I built - taking a clients machine and rebuilding it. Such a transformation. If I can figure out how to post them, I will so you can see it. I can tell you one thing - all my machines PASS the "Quarter Test". Mikey demonstrated that in one of his videos - he put a quarter on a machine that was in full operation mode to see it it will fall off.

 

[Ken Clean]

Ken, there's no perfect answer.
It depends on the end consumer, meaning the cleaner.

• Some of us are looking for a flame thrower kind of machine.
• Some care mostly about reliability and are willing to accept less heat.
• Some want to be able to fix it themselves, no proprietary parts, ease of service. Others could care less.
• All of us would prefer heating system that is less costly to fix.
  
• Some do not want the hassle of dealing with two sources of fuel.
• Some will not consider a propane heater in their van.

Which consumer are you looking to serve?

Thank you Ofer Kolton. I am amazed with the number of responses I received on my post, in the depth of insight of each. When you say some are looking for a flamethrower kind machine, what operating temperatures are you talking about?

 

[Ken Clean]

Ken, I assume you're using the classical process control definitions in your question, where "temperature bypass system" refers to splitting the cold stream where some flow goes through the HX and some bypasses it, with the two mixed to produce the output, and " temperature control system" where all of the cold stream goes through the HX and the hot stream (blower exhaust, engine exhaust, engine coolant, etc.) flow into the HX is varied to achieve temperature setpoint.

In the process industry the bypass system can achieve very tight and very fast control, but you need a 3-way mixing valve that is rated to withstand full system pressure. In a TM system (unless the HX is a preheater) you are talking upwards of 1200-1500 psi. such a control valve would be pretty expensive and specialized, and would need a PLC or other controller as well as sensor(s) and safeties to work, adding to the cost and complexity.

The temperature control system is less precise but way less complex. In the TM world this is most often seen as an exhaust diverter that routes hot exhaust through or around the hot side of the HX. Most often it is simple bang-bang (2-position) control. I think that this type of system would be most likely accepted by the typical cleaner.

Dgardner, thanks again. You are right about heat exchanger with an exhaust diverted system. This is the direction I would like to go because it is less complicated, less parts to replace and dependable. Years ago when I built my units, I used a simple valve that would add cold water (under pressure) to the hot water. It worked great, but had to be manually operated. I see that the El Deablo (?) unit from Colorado uses an exhaust bypass system. Is this type of bypass system dependable? Would you want it in your unit?

 

[Ken Clean]

Saiger" data-source="post: 4393230" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch">

Welcome Ken....

My family has been in the cleaning biz a long time, but I am also former Music teacher (25 years) and cleaner as well as my dad....

My dad had done some building and installs, but that was quite some time ago.

We now (and have been long time) Run Butlers....but we do pimp them a bit at times.

Not sure if can help you on the tech items you are looking for, but really glad you are here

Mark Saiger - please excuse me for not knowing but are you part of the company that makes the Zipper wand?

 

[ruff]

Ken, not being one of them "flame throwing" fans I should not talk.
My understanding is 220 or so at the wand. Maybe some should chip in.
I am happy with my Pro-1200 that once it gets going seem to be at 215 - 230 at the machine.

 

[Ken Clean]

Saiger" data-source="post: 4393230" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch">

Welcome Ken....

My family has been in the cleaning biz a long time, but I am also former Music teacher (25 years) and cleaner as well as my dad....

My dad had done some building and installs, but that was quite some time ago.

We now (and have been long time) Run Butlers....but we do pimp them a bit at times.

Not sure if can help you on the tech items you are looking for, but really glad you are here

Hi Mark, I just sent you a reply - In my newness to using a "forum" I hit the post button before I thanked you for your taking the time to write.

 

[ruff]

Mark Saiger - please excuse me for not knowing but are you part of the company that makes the Zipper wand?

At times, we've been asking ourselves the very same question.

 

[Mark Saiger]

Mark Saiger - please excuse me for not knowing but are you part of the company that makes the Zipper wand?

No I am not....but you could say a more than happy user

And would consider Erik Hiltz the maker of the Zipper a friend now through our business acquaintances....

 

[dgardner]

Is this type of bypass system dependable? Would you want it in your unit?

As with most things, it depends. It needs to be robust and well designed. Since all exhaust diverters will eventually need to be cleaned of carbon/grunge, make it easy to service. I have no issues with a well formulated exhaust diverter.

 

[Captain America]

Great to hear from you Cap. The Judson guys have been very helpful. They love the propane and the constant heat it provides. To date, I have not had any operating experience with the new cleaning tools such as the zipper and the rotary extractors. A number of months ago, I repaired a truck mount. I went on a job with the owner to make sure his unit was working correctly. He used a rotary extractor (RX 360?). It did a great job. What typs of heater do you use with the kero heater? Is there any soot produced?

I use a northern tools kero burner, a little heavy but works great, steambrite also sells these.1500$
If I were to get another one I would get one from kleanline out of ny they also have a branch in texas
832-398-3989. They are a little less heavy and carry a stainless steal made specific for carpet cleaners.
Around 2500$
I don't believe any of these tools work properly wo fuel heat because of the continual water flow and GPm:
Tile cleaning
Rotary tools
Zipper wand
Any continual flow over 12 flow.....
But I do hear some of these pto's can hold heat,but do some more research

 

[ruff]

......
I haven't taken my truckmounts to a carpet cleaning place in over 5 -6 years...
And have replaced 2 heaters and 2 engines

Are we talking about the same carpet cleaning machine?
If yes, just curious, what kind of machine did you buy?

Cause if I had one like that, I sure ain't buying another.

 

[Spurlington]

If you have the room, you could supplement your heat exchange system with a propane burner to keep consistent level of heat.

 

[Captain America]

Are we talking about the same carpet cleaning machine?
If yes, just curious, what kind of machine did you buy?

Cause if I had one like that, I sure ain't buying another.

Naamco out of houston...belt driven easy to replace engine......belts.
Replaced the hx with kero burners......
I do use a local auto mechanic and I had a generac and a kholer engine installed
By a local lawn mower mechanic.
I replaced the silencers a few years ago, but had that done locally also by a muffler guy.