Kohler 23.5 Vs 25 hp

[Louis]

So I'm thinking about putting a new motor on my machine. It currently has a 22hp on it. Priced the two kohler engines and the price difference is $434.00 for a 1.5 hp gain.
I have a 45 blower and the 22hp, it does good. Wanted to go to a 25hp but is it really worth the money for 1.5hp ? The motor I have runs good but leaks a little. Have no clue of real hours. I have put a 1000 on it. I want replace it and put the 22hp on the shelf as a back up. What do you think.

 

[Papa John]

go with the 25hp or bigger if you can... even spend a couple of thousand more if you have to. The bigger motors will last longer.

 

[dgardner]

even spend a couple of thousand more if you have to

Wouldn't the bigger motor have to last twice as long to recoup a couple thousand extra dollars spent? Do you really think it will?

 

[Becker]

I'd do the 25.. I had a TM with a 20hp, went bigger when the 20hp died. the bigger motor did not work as hard.
Got more hours our of the bigger motor than the 20, BTW ran 3 different engines in this TM.. Still spinning a blower today.

 

[dgardner]

Yes, I would do the 25 as well, but see little reason to go bigger than that.

 

[Papa John]

Wouldn't the bigger motor have to last twice as long to recoup a couple thousand extra dollars spent? Do you really think it will?

opps ment to hit the Qoute not like button--

My "weakest" Tm has a 4.5 blower and a 28hp engine and wished it had more HP. I bigger engine can operate at lower RPMs reducing the strain on the motor and the noise as well.
also the cost of the engine is only part of the story-- don't forget the install costs and downtime-- lost revenue from not working.

If you want to be Big, you have to Think Big.

 

[dgardner]

A 45 blower running max RPM at 14" vacuum pulls about 14 hp, add 3-5 hp for the solution pump. Louis' 22 hp motor is working pretty hard. The 25 would be an improvement IMO, but you reach a point of diminishing returns as you go bigger, unless you start changing blowers and/or drive ratios, which is a whole 'nother subject. If the 25 will go 4000 hours would a 40hp go 8000? I doubt it. It boils down to personal preference.

I will contact a mod to see if we can remove your like - wouldn't want folks to get the wrong impression......

 

[dgardner]

Speaking of going big - here's Saiger's way - nice Saiger blue paint job!

 

[Papa John]

IMHO I think in areas like Modesto and Phoenix-- heat would be the big killer on your TM equipment--so wouldn't having an engine that isn't Maxed out and is water cooled AND Fan Cooled be better?

Also I think I read somewhere the engines are actually weaker then their stated HP..?? it was on the internet somewhere-- not sure if its true.

 

[Desk Jockey]

Is the increased HP worth $434.00?

I know I'm cheap but I'd bank that $434.00 for the next replacement unless it were a noticeable difference.

Air cooled will only last so long, just keep the oil & filter changes regular.

 

[KevinD]

You might as well run the current one till it dies because the new one will probably leak oil also.
After all it is a Kohler.

 

[GeneMiller]

Leaking oil is part of the game. Run the engine until it dies. Keep the new one on the shelf for when it needs replaced. Bigger is not always better. Engines run most efficient at a particular curve. You'll end up spending more money for the engine and fuel if you go bigger. If the engine you have runs fine and doesn't bog down then why go bigger. You need s reason other than I just want bigger.

Gene

 

[Dolly Llama]

My "weakest" Tm has a 4.5 blower and a 28hp engine and wished it had more HP. I bigger engine can operate at lower RPMs reducing the strain on the motor and the noise as well.
.

Some flies in the sugar, Brother

reducing RPM also reduces blower CFM ...might be quieter, but at a lose of performance.
Not such a big deal with a 56 or 59 blower, but is with a 45 and 47

also, any air cooled motor should be run near it's peak RPM for the proper cooling

you mentioned water cooled and fan, that does eliminate much of the RPM needs for air cooled, problem is, it's rarely ever an easy/direct fit for a TM designed w/air cooled motor .
Going from 22 to 25 is pretty much a clean swap

truth is, most TMs are over engine'd anyway.
reason being, most use HX'ers to heat the water..they need the bigger engines for the heat..not the power requirements


..L.T.A.

 

[Papa John]

Some flies in the sugar, Brother

reducing RPM also reduces blower CFM ...might be quieter, but at a lose of performance.
Not such a big deal with a 56 or 59 blower, but is with a 45 and 47

also, any air cooled motor should be run near it's peak RPM for the proper cooling

you mentioned water cooled and fan, that does eliminate much of the RPM needs for air cooled, problem is, it's rarely ever an easy/direct fit for a TM designed w/air cooled motor .
Going from 22 to 25 is pretty much a clean swap

truth is, most TMs are over engine'd anyway.
reason being, most use HX'ers to heat the water..they need the bigger engines for the heat..not the power requirements


..L.T.A.

ok Good to know--- Did I mention-- I'm not a Mechanic-- and my opinion isn't Science based. I've always thought Bigger is better and the $434 is only 1 or 2 jobs-- the $2000 would be only 1 or 2 days for me.

We humans often see things from our OWN reality. Its amazing what you can learn if you take the time to think---- The Opposite of what you believe Might also be true..

I've only had an air-cooled motor on a generator and it was too loud for me!

My TM with 4.5 blower would bog down sometimes and I thought it was HP problem--- turns out it was either dirty fuel filter or clogged blower filter.

 

[Dolly Llama]

I've always thought Bigger is better and the $434 is only 1 or 2 jobs-

.

I general, I think the same too...I over engineer pret'near everything I build
When the kids were little, I built them a toy box..it took three men and boy to carry it in LOL
Same for the bar I build..it weighs 500 pounds and you could park truck on it
i carry 45 cal instead of 9mm...

it's the "Tim Taylor" syndrome in me

there does come a point of diminishing returns though, as Dan pointed out.
More fuel used and more initial cost doesn't necessarily equate to longer life or more performance gain

if i was flush with dough, I'd go with the 25 over the 22 "just because" ..and only if it was a direct swap with no fab/rework needed
But being the BD I am, and it being close to Christmas , $500 extra is a lot of money...so I'd prob'ly throw a fresh 22 on the shelf and have it ready when the old one poops out


..L.T.A.

 

[Papa John]

I general, I think the same too...I over engineer pret'near everything I build
When the kids were little, I built them a toy box..it took three men and boy to carry it in LOL
Same for the bar I build..it weighs 500 pounds and you could park truck on it
i carry 45 cal instead of 9mm...

it's the "Tim Taylor" syndrome in me

Hilarious!!

 

[Louis]

I can put any size of motor on it since I built it. Waiting for Kohler to get back to the supplier on pricing. I have a place called Flory industries here. They make almond harvesting equipment and carry lots of Kohler, Honda and Kubota motors. I might be able to get a 30hp for the same price as the 25hp.

 

[Captain America]

I have had 2 naamco's truckmounts both with 4.5 blowers and 25 hp kholer a
I have replaced 3 25 hp engines. 1800 hrs. 2500 hrs and 2300 hrs
They told me not to go over 25 hp.....
I decided to go with a 30 hp kholer which greatly increased vacuum
Also then decided to go with a 33 hp generac which increased vacuum over the 30 hp.....
Got to look at torque also .....generac has higher torque......
30 hp kholer costs 2200$
33 hp generac costs 2000$...absolutely love the generac over the kholer
That 4.5 blower won't be maxed out until you get to about 33-35 hp
Also a 35 hp will run a 4.7 blower if you wanted to upgrade

 

[Dolly Llama]

That 4.5 blower won't be maxed out until you get to about 33-35 hp

not sure what you're talking about?? "HP maxed out"??
blowers don't get "maxed out" by HP
the get maxed out by running them at manufactures max recommended specs for RPM and lift.
Which, if i remember right, is somewhere around 3600 rpm and 15" of lift for a 45...
Less for 47
you can do that with a 22HP engine or 220 HP..the blower don't know the difference, Capt


..L.T.A.

 

[dgardner]

Havent we had this conversation before?

 

[Dolly Llama]

Havent we had this conversation before?

pretty close to it...
and it's Christmas ..I'm trying like hell to be nice

..L.T.A.

 

[Captain America]

You still hafta look at torque not just hp these are the specs....
Kholer 20 hp. - 31 torque....1800$
25 hp -39 torque...2000$
30 hp- 46 torque....2200$
35 hp- 55 torque...2600$
Generac/suburu
35 hp- 61 torque...2000$
40 hp-63 torque....2300$
For 200$ more you can almost double your torque between the 20 hp and 35 hp

 

[Lee Stockwell]

Minor hp differences on engines of near identical size are usually a variation of carbs.

Torque specs are on a curve, similar to hp specs. Best if the torque numbers max at the ACTUAL rpm your motor can achieve at full load and throttle, particularly if air cooled.

It's typical for a 3600rpm engine to settle in at 3450 rpm under load.

 

[handdi]

I have replaced 3 25 hp engines. 1800 hrs. 2500 hrs and 2300 hrs

my god i would really figure out the problem there you should be getting 4 or 5000 hrs out of those i would think we do.
kohlers leak oil run it till it pukes.

 

[dgardner]

You still hafta look at torque not just hp

Cap'n - how much torque does a 45 blower need?

 

[Captain America]

I am not sure..there is an exact limit to how much torque you need....
I have 2 naamco's 1 with a 30 hp kholer and 1 with a 33 hp generac both with 4.5 blower
The kholers will run hotter and probably need oil changes more frequently.....
The differnce in the torque between 39-61 shows in my cleaning jobs
About 20-40 percent faster drying and cleaning on the same jobs.
If you run longer hose and have greater water flow 12-14 with a zipper with trigger down you will have more water in the hose and need more torque.......this also shows up in tile and water damage jobs..
Steambrite says you need at least a 35 hp to run a 4.7 blower....so I believe a 35 hp should be enough for. A 4.5 blower...

 

[Lee Stockwell]

I certainly don't consider those mfgs to be the most knowledgeable in our industry.

 

[Captain America]

Specs in the shop is one thing....can be debated??
But I know with the same 4.5 blower with the same machines I have almost doubled my cleaning capacity
From 6-8 flow to 12-14 flow simply by upgrading to fuel heat and increasing torque from 39-61....
I clean the same resturants for over 10 years and lowered dry time from 2-4 hours to 1-2 hours
While cutting the job by about 1/2 hour.......
Also added the zipper for faster dry times!!,

 

[dgardner]

with the same 4.5 blower with the same machines I have almost doubled my cleaning capacity
From 6-8 flow to 12-14 flow simply by upgrading to fuel heat and increasing torque from 39-61....

When you were running 39 torque what rpm did you run? Then with the larger engine (61 torque) what rpm? And when you changed, did you change the pulley ratios (in other words did the blower speed change)?

 

[Captain America]

Both engines were run full throttle I will hafta look back at the specs on the rpms
Same exact pullies on both I believe they are one-one....
However I did throttle the 33 hp generac down a little at first but then pushed it back to full
Throttle as it increased vacuum and therefore could increase water flow