Are you a wooly bully?

Bob Foster

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Tell me what you think is too tough a process or procedure on wool broadloom.

Do you post pad wool Berber?


What don't you put on wool?


Is a Dyson too tough on wool carpets?

d]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHF558u6Q_8d]
 

Jack May

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I use dyson's on wool. I post pad wool.

I'm careful about using rocket fuel though. I try and stay with WoolSafe or similar products. Now and again you're presented with a problem that requires a bit more kick, so I'll use it sparingly and neutralise it well.

Need to be careful of brushes and pads rather than machines I reckon. A stiff brush under a CRB machine will cause a lot of filamentation but the right brush/pad/whatever with sufficient lubrication will be fine.

John
 

Jack May

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Another thing, I recently started offering cropping/de pilling servies. The first thing I usually do is run a vacuum over the carpet with a good brush on it. It's amazing the number of people with a phobia of using a vacuum with a beater bar or brush.... In fact, I actually wonder if that contributes to the pilling issues sometimes.

John
 

Dolly Llama

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John Middleton said:
Another thing, I recently started offering cropping/de pilling servies. The first thing I usually do is run a vacuum over the carpet with a good brush on it. It's amazing the number of people with a phobia of using a vacuum with a beater bar or brush.... In fact, I actually wonder if that contributes to the pilling issues sometimes.

John


clarify that for me, John.

is it the lack of a brush/beater that you think possibly causes/contributes to pilling?
and why do some folks down your way have a phobia about vac brush/beaters??

thanks



..l.T.A.
 

Bob Foster

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This thread became very ironic in the last few hours. It seems I am cleaning a lot of wool broadloom these days so I started it as a discussion to get remarks like yours to come out.

But now the discussion has become very relevant to my situation.

I hear all kinds of different things about wool from "be very careful" to "its tough of nails" and people really don't need to be overly concerned with it if they follow a few basic rules. You guys down there clean wool every day all day all year and up here some of us might clean a wool broadloom once or twice a week or even once a month. I'm not talking about rugs here, I'm specifically referring to installed wool or wool blend broadloom.

So today's job which I previewed last week has an obvious need for a re-stretch. But this is very common on wool as will be come apparent in the discussion later. So here is what met me - yup call Danny and arrange a re-stretch. He prefers to come in after I've cleaned the carpets.

2011-08-15160546.jpg


looseinstall.jpg


Pay close attention you wool guys. This is exactly what I did


- Vacuumed

- Presprayed with Judson Juice pH 8.something. Laid it on fairly normally (well maybe a little heavy) Kicked it with a powdered peroxide because it had some spots that could use it. Besides it was a really light colored carpet. Done it lots of time on wool.

- Used my SEBO to agitate it it in. The SEBO being my lightest easiest on the carpet scrubber to tickle it into the Berber

- Extracted pretty hot (with an acid rinse) but not maximum hot full key with lots of dry strokes. It looked beautimous.

- Said bye bye thanks a lot and call me if you have any concerns have a nice day. Outta there at 11AM

3PM I get the call and I go look

Browning and big circles from previous land mines that look like watermark circles. These were areas the owner pointed out to me before I started and there were brown stains under the glass where condensate had run down from the windows and left the carpet damp. Plus the cat had a few accidents. But I start to look closer and start to see what I think is some of this carpet is browning out.

The reason the land mines of spots were in the carpet is because everyone else never cleaned it with the same heavy process I did. Note I said heavy process and not better process.



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Lessons learned that I knew but should have paid close attention too.

1. Be really careful on wool even though it may be tough stuff
2. The signs were right in front of me the first time I walked in the door. Jute backed carpet - I check after the fact and yes it was. When Jute back wool is installed it is often put in loose. That is why this carpet was loose.
3. Never shoot jute with too much moisture either with the pre-spray or extraction process. - I full keyed this job at 500 psi - DUMB MOVE and as I said I put the pre-spray on a bit heavy. So, the damn thing yellowed because of too much moisture in spite of first class pre-spray and rinse.
4. Even if its a super nice day with lots of sun and ventilation use the damn fans that are in the truck.

Damn it I know better.

Are we good John or would you like to be the first wooly to kick my ass?

So its all fixable and that's what I am going to do on Wednesday.
Extract with an acid rinse low pressure and dry stoke the crap out of it and put the fans on it to speed dry it. If I have to, I'll post pad it and all should be good.
 

-JB-

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jute back.



The only people that are afeared a wool are the ones that don't clean any.
 

Heathrow

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Hiya Bob - I clean with 500 regularly on wool and I don't think I've ever managed to wet the backing enough to cause browning, so maybe you're just unlucky that the moisture has dragged up those previous issues.

on a side note:
I have one white wool carpet that I do regularly for a friend in their rental. It gets a hammering and every time I use a high alkaline prespray, with a plain water rinse as hot as my 405 will go,and it looks great after 4 years of this 'bad' treatment. The first time I cleaned it they said just nuke it - it's getting ripped out soon... It's also had extensive peroxide based stain treatments in that time but you wouldn't know.
I do see a lot of trashed wools, and I give them a hard time sometimes - that's my market, and it's surprising to me that these things rarely seem to affect the look of the carpet long term. However I wouldn't treat a normal wool carpet like that - just in case. I think putting powdered peroxide in the mix would raise the pH significantly as well, maybe not a great idea for Mrs Piffs carpet.

My two cents 8)

ps - I agree with John that stiff brushes on a CRB can damage wool carpet - done it myself on my own carpet (loop pile wool) :oops:
 

sweendogg

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.. and two more sence.. jute backed carpets can be stretched just as tight as synethetic ones.. if not tigheter.. if you installer says otherwise.. fire them.. they are ignorant of simple jute backed carpets let alone a jute woven backing.
 

Bob Foster

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I see lots of loose wool installs. It was my own theory that jute back might be stretched a little less than others. The installer I use for my repairs is very good.

I wonder if the powdered peroxide might have done it but I don't think I would have put that much into it. I'm guessing that my heavy wetting and lots of flush caused the problems. Never had one turn out like this before. I have reversed yellowing on other carpets that home owners have screwed up with rental machines.

The yellowing under the windows was there but less prominent before I started. It went away by the time I finished extraction and then came back worse than before I started.
bywindow-1.jpg


Will see it at 48 hours after cleaning and not too worried about fixing it up.
 

ruff

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Bob,
Peroxide is not to be used on wool unless there is absolutely no other choice. Yes it will make it look better, however it will shorten it's life and make it brittle. Permanent damage.

Is Judson juice safe for wool?
PH alone is not the determining factor, it's also the solvent content etc.

David is absolutely right, jute has nothing to do with the quality of the installation.
 

Bob Foster

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Thanks Ofer. The carpet was quite irregular in color due to a lot of UV. They were considering replacing it. But I said its wool and it looks in good shape and that I thought it would come out a lot better after cleaning. Given this I felt the peroxide would be a good choice.

If I was to do clean this carpet again I would have proceeded differently based on some of the good advise given and the lessons learned.

I don't know where I heard of some wool installs being looser or if I might have come to that conclusion on my own but obviously that's wrong.

Or is it? Is there such a thing as a reason or type of wool installation where it is installed less tight?

My last resort will be a very mild encap if required.
 

Desk Jockey

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I've seen plenty of them loose, but I think it had more to due with primary and secondary back separation.

Those pre-exisiting stains by the windows look like they are going to be a booger to get out and stay out.

I don't like wool, it lasts forever but isn't very forgiving with stains. It uglies out far before it wears out.
 

sweendogg

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.. misconception solved... If its a tufted carpet with jute secondary backing.. it can be stretched just as tight if not tighter than a synthetic backed carpet. If its a woven backing.. usually jute or jute/cotton/ hemp combination, then it will stretch a lot in the length and only be able to stretch a little in the width. It still needs to be stretched really tight, but its a lot harder to stretch the width properly if you don't know what you are doing. This iswhy many wools end up loosening, because there is no stretch in th width at all, because it scares alot of installers when the carpet starts popping in a stretch or they don't reinforce their tackstrip enough to hold a proper stretch in a woven carpet.
 

roro

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From your description it seems that you may have used a power sprayer, applied it too heavily and left it too long. Hence the moisture hit the jute backing and released the lignin. It should not be a difficult fix.

By the window looks more like there has been previous dampness and you have merely bought it to the surface.

Suggest that you apply a light prespray of heated browning solution with a pump-up and work it in with a rake in more affected areas. (The one we mostly use is sodium bisulphite based.) Sometimes in heavily stained areas it may require a second treatment.
When you are wanding do quite slow strokes so that you are getting good recovery.

We clean wool carpet everyday at over 200F and about 450 psi.

roro
 

Jack May

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meAt said:
John Middleton said:
Another thing, I recently started offering cropping/de pilling servies. The first thing I usually do is run a vacuum over the carpet with a good brush on it. It's amazing the number of people with a phobia of using a vacuum with a beater bar or brush.... In fact, I actually wonder if that contributes to the pilling issues sometimes.

John


clarify that for me, John.

is it the lack of a brush/beater that you think possibly causes/contributes to pilling?
and why do some folks down your way have a phobia about vac brush/beaters??

thanks



..l.T.A.

Larry, I'm amazed at the number of jobs I go to with the intention of de pilling to find all it needed wasa thorough good vacuuming with a good brush on it. I feel that the natural shedding process happens and if the vacuuming isn't done to a good enough standard and lifting those shedding fibres away as they shed, then they become matted on the surface and can contribute to the appearance of pilling. Now sometimes it's the vacuum cleaner itselt, other times it's the process (person/frequency) at fault.... difficult subject to approach and tell the lady of the homethe vacuuming is a contributing factor in her claim :oops:

On the phobia thing, I find that also any person associated with making, selling or laying carpets strongly recommend against a vacuum with a brush or beater bar. One of the common statements to me is 'I don't use the turbo attachment on my vacuum because (person) from (carpet company/retailer/layer) told me it's cause this fuzzing" or something to that effect.

I strongly believe in using that style of vacuum, and assure my clients that my home, from new has only ever been maintained with an upright Dyson, and I wouldnt use a non powerhead type vacuum by choice.

Then you have the likes of Shaw that even went as far as saying something to the effect that if you use a Dyson on your carpet it'll void the warranty. It came up on MB a while back, I don't know if it was ever official or just hearsay.

John
 

Jack May

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Sorry Bob, been offline for 24 hours with a migraine...

I'm not gonna kick your butt. Seems like you approached it with a sensible and well thought out action plan.

I'd drop the pressure back a tad, but like Ross said, not much. Possibly you may have laid down too much detergent, but I'd also be more concerned with the powdered peroxide addition.

On wool, remember the absorbency, so if you apply too little, you'll cause a lot more fibre damage at scrubbing time if it's too dry. Spray too much and it'll take too long to dry and get the secondary backing wet.

I don't know how far ahead you prep, but if you have a nasty that requires a bit more detergent and agitation etc, try doing smaller sections, 1-2 rooms max at a time prepared in advance. When doing a multiple process clean, it's tempting to go ahead and prep the total area each step all at once, but that leaves a lot of dwell time for gravity to do it's thing.

The close up shot showing the carpet, is the entire home the same carpet? If so, you have a large bulky loop pile, a lot of density there and maybe you left too much moisture under those loops? A slower drying stroke maybe? Really grasping at straws here trying to think what may have gone wrong or what could produce a different result next time.

Go in with a damp cloth, lightly spray a little doffee and tannin remover and gently dab a small area. If it's browning, that should lift off straight away.

Hope you get it solved.

On jute backed carpets, I'd prefer that to action backed carpets anyday. If however it was installed cold, that may contribute to the lack of stretch. I'd say over half of my loose carpet complaints were installed mid winter and within a single day. The carpet came stright from a cold warehouse, and installed without allowing time to warm up and gain better stretch.

John
 

Bob Foster

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All great points. I believe I over-wet it now. Also the spots under the window all though not that visible before I started were pre-existing.

The work comprised of a livingroom and dining room beside each other and the combined area was under 400 sq ft. As per WoolSafe power rotating tools are OK if the surface is lubricated and its not an aggressive scrub. My wimpy Sebo fits into that category. No way would I use a Whitaker on it even with the mildest brushes ( I have three different types of brushes for mine)

Mike suggested BiSulfite too.

As for the Dyson it was my understanding that WoolSafe NZ had a warning specifically directed at the Dyson vacuum. But according to this WS website they are listed as approved.

http://www.woolsafe.org/consumersuppliers
 

ruff

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Bob,
I had a wool carpet that was pretty similar. The stains were there to begin with.
I actually cleaned very lightly, still the brown stains became bigger.

As it turned out, they had a small dog and many stains = they used nature's mirracle.
I found out only later, when the house help fessed up.

I did qualify before hand, yet they did not like it.

What I did that got it much better was padding with Haitian Cotton cleaner (which is acid + bisulfite.) It got much better.
May not be the best for wool, but not too many choices. I prefer not to use the super strong browning solution acids on wool.

Good luck.
 

The Great Oz

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Ill kick you too Bob, but only as a lesson to all those oxidizer-everything freaks that claim they've never done any damage.


“I hear all kinds of different things about wool from "be very careful" to "it’s tough of nails" and people really don't need to be overly concerned with it if they follow a few basic rules.” … “I'm not talking about rugs here; I'm specifically referring to installed wool or wool blend broadloom.”
Pretty easy to work with if you follow those rules: Keep the heat down on deep colored or patterned/colored wool carpet for the sake of the dye; a higher pH can be used if it isn’t buffered to retain that high pH. (I believe that a buffered “8” pH product can be cumulatively worse than an unbuffered “10” pH); oxidizers should only be used a last resort. The damage may not be apparent to you, but it is happening.

“So today's job which I previewed last week has an obvious need for a re-stretch. But this is very common on wool…”
Carpet pile has nothing to do with installation. Jute backed carpet should be installed just like polypropylene, but sometimes installers will cheat, knee-kick the jute-backed carpet and then water it with a watering can to make it shrink enough to remove ripples. Poorly installed wool carpet is not common here, so maybe your neighborhood had a high-end retailer with a lazy installer.

“Presprayed with Judson Juice pH 8.something. Laid it on fairly normally (well maybe a little heavy)”
Is that a buffered “8”? If so, don’t use it on wool.

Kicked it with a powdered peroxide because it had some spots that could use it. Besides it was a really light colored carpet. Done it lots of time on wool.
This is a very bad habit. You’ve been lucky in the past, so maybe this is Karma. Ever seen frizz-headed bleached blondes? That's oxidizer damage, and their hair is continuing to grow out. The carpet doesn't have a chance.

Oxidizers lift the wool cuticle and promote felting and they chemically burn the fiber. If the wool turns yellow from over-use of oxidizer, using more to correct the problem will result in the yellow returning faster than it did before and often it becomes darker – even brown. Sometimes the use of a strong acid will cure the problem until the next cleaning, but the damage is done.

(Very often poor quality sheepskins will be treated with an oxidizer to whiten them for sale; then they rapidly turn yellow.)

Extracted pretty hot (with an acid rinse).
Good move. If done quickly enough after cleaning it could stop damage before it gets bad.

Browning and big circles from previous land mines that look like watermark circles. These were areas the owner pointed out to me before I started and there were brown stains under the glass where condensate had run down from the windows and left the carpet damp. Plus the cat had a few accidents. But I start to look closer and start to see what I think is some of this carpet is browning out.

The reason the land mines of spots were in the carpet is because everyone else never cleaned it with the same heavy process I did. Note I said heavy process and not better process.
Your guess might be right, but I’d guess this may have had more to do with the land mine and not poor cleaning by someone else. You know that people will blot spills and get them to wick into their blotting material, leaving lots of residue at the base to wick up when the carpet is cleaned. Homeowners often chemically burn their own carpet by pouring baking soda or table salt on pet stains. As you wet rinse these areas the alkalinity of the baking soda starts to show the damage done to the carpet. This is akin to spilled Comet or Ajax on a bathroom carpet; there is little you can do to know this is there.

Adding an alkaline cleaner with a “kick” of peroxide adds to the burn.

Lessons learned that I knew but should have paid close attention too.

3. Never shoot jute with too much moisture either with the pre-spray or extraction process. - I full keyed this job at 500 psi - DUMB MOVE and as I said I put the pre-spray on a bit heavy. So, the damn thing yellowed because of too much moisture in spite of first class pre-spray and rinse.
Wool doesn’t yellow due to being over-wet.

Extract with an acid rinse low pressure and dry stoke the crap out of it and put the fans on it to speed dry it. If I have to, I'll post pad it and all should be good.
Post padding will only help if the problem is wicking, which it seems might be the problem under the window. If the problem is an alkaline burn, use a strong acid that you can leave in the carpet (no sticky residue). You may have to use something as strong as hydrofluoric if you can find some. Hiding everything with a coat of primer/encap might be an option; the owner can replace the carpet the next time it needs cleaning.

As for the Dyson it was my understanding that WoolSafe NZ had a warning specifically directed at the Dyson vacuum. But according to this WS website they are listed as approved.
Unfortunately, WoNZ never tried to make their certification program into a cash cow and lost out to Woolsafe, which is rapidly attaining a CRI level of credibility.

PS: Did I forgert to say that none of this may have anything to do with your cleaning process? Oops!

We once cleaned at a very high-end home of a long-term customer. Everything was great except the white wool in the guest bedroom. We got called back because it had browned, and the tech called me to come and look at it as soon as he arrived. The entire rug had severe stripes of browning and an area the tech had test cleaned got better but not great. After much questioning the homeowner admitted "touching up" the guest room with her Kirby home carpet cleaning machine and laundry detergent. She may have used a little bleach too.

The carpet was more heavily soiled than the rest of the house when the tech first arrived, but there was no sign of the damage until several hours after our very appropriate-for-wool cleaning.
 

Bob Foster

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Thanks for your informative post Bryan.

I feel that I can give the overall carpet a very light misting of an acid rinse agent and see if it cures most of the problem. I will spot spray some sulfide or Haitian cotton shampoo on the problem spots and brush them in with a horsehair brush. I could carefully post pad it or maybe even rake it in with a broom.

I believe your speculation on the spots is confirmed by what I saw after it was cleaned and what the customer said.

I will bring my camera tomorrow and show everything from start to finish. The original pictures were shot from my phone.

Very low moisture and lots of fans on whatever I do after I see it tomorrow.

I don't think I will ever use powdered peroxide on wool again.

I have used Judson O2 system (pre-spray and rinse) on virtually every piece of wool I have cleaned for over 3 years and never had a problem and some of those carpets I have cleaned three times.

My problems were primarily created by too much pre-spray, too heavy a rinse (because I pre-sprayed it too heavy) that got a little too close and friendly to the jute backing and not drying the wool quick enough. The the powdered peroxide didn't help me.
 
S

sam miller

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I would use something like hatian powder from chemspec charged with textile rinse mist and vac with no more then a 4 flow wand and extract and post pad with fans! I'm personally not a fan of shampoo's thats just me!

Also Cti has a powder Natural fiber cleaner same as Hatian powder works good bisulfite base.

maybe dash in a little odorcide to calm any odors!
 

sweendogg

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bob, did you use the judson rinse or an acid rinse? The judson is neutral pH.. not acid so it wouldn't correct the buffering too much. Wools like acid. Also its has some oxidizing agents in the judson rinse as well so an oxidation continues to occur after the cleaning as stopped to produce even brighter carpets. So That could be part of your problem there as well.
 

Bob Foster

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What I saw before I started today

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DSC04547.jpg


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What I did

Light spray of acid rinse then brushed it in.

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Post padded with a light dilution of acid rinse

DSC04561.jpg



What it looked like when I left


DSC04566.jpg


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srf.jpg
 

Jack May

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Bob, do a small test area where you spray nothing on the carpet, just wet your pad out with either aicd rinse or a sodium Metabisulfite product and just lightly pad the area.

Another option, thoroughly clean it again, lift a corner and place a snail air mover under the carpet and lift the opposite corner just enough to vent. Put the air mover on high and get a good tent effect, this will encourage it to dry from the back, it's already stretched, so if it stretches a bit more that's not your problem as your layer is coming in after you anyway.

John
 

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