Bloody Sisal

[timlakeman]

Got a call today from a carpet cleaning company. Their technician started by pre spraying the carpet and he said it shrank before his eyes about 3 inches from the wall taking out the smooth edge at the same time.
I was thinking that maybe the only method of repair would be to put a border of similar sisal around the perimeter.
Or could it be stretched with power stretcher?

all help greatly appreciated.

 

[J Scott W]

The fibers are rathe brittle. I don't know the size of the room, but I suspect you can't restretch. The border may be the way to go. Or bind the edge and call it an area rug.

With a cleaning tech was not aware of how to clean this fiber, there could be other problems in addition to the shrinking.

Scott Warrington

 

[Jack May]

Tim, a few things are not adding up to my way of thinking.

(Tim being in Aussie is referring to things from our terminology. Secondly, a lot of carpets get loosely called sisal down under even though they may be made out of wool or synthetic face yarns. They are more describing a 'look' than using the true meaning of the fibre... hope this helps some figure this out)

Firstly have you seen the job yet so you can clarify a few things, or it's only been called through?

Secondly, are you sure it's genuine sisal? I've not come across a genuine sisal carpet that is not a direct stick (CGD) type installation. Perhaps Harry can come in here and enlighten us (me) if they ever recommend installing genuine sisal on underlay (pad) and smooth edge (tackless).

Finally, the ONLY time I've seen a carpet pull smoothedge out of a concrete floor during being wet was a flooded (submersed for a couple of days) axminster in a large pub area where there were a number of widths joined together and it shrank 3-6 inches off the wall. I sort of find it hard to believe that he started pre spraying and it shrank before his eyes.

As Scott said, maybe there's more to this than what you've been told.

I'd proceed with extreme caution on this baby. If they did wet clean a genuine sisal what's it look like now? Can you get suitalbe matching (or contrasting) product to do a surround? My problem I'd have with borders is the genuine product doesn not join well across the ends. Every time I see an end join, they are invariably tatty along the join with stray fibres coming loose. Perhaps there's a better way of seam sealing them so they don't but I'm in unknown teritory here with repairs to genuine sisal.

Hope this helps somewhat... if nothing else, gets others out of the woodwork to offer addition advice.

John

 

[Harry Myers]

If he can show a picture there can be some options to what and what not to do. If it did shrink 3 inches sounds drastic. However I have seen it shrink 3 inches due to flood . Most likely it will shrink more in the lenght and you wont be able to puy a cross seam in. Post a picture please.

 

[timlakeman]

Here are the pictures.
As you can see the seam has been joined together conventionally with seam tape. The problem here is that the underside of the carpet has rubberised backing, hence the heat tape will not function correctly. As you said John, the sisal should have been stuck directly to the concrete.
I walked from this job but am trying to help the boss of the carpet cleaning company by getting as much detail as possible to prove that the installation was incorrect. Any further help on this matter would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks again for your input Guys.

 

[Shorty]

Hope you don't mind, but I played around a bit.

Ooroo,

:roll:

 

[Jack May]

WOW what a mess.

I'd be trying to find the manufacturer's guidelines for installation.

John

 

[Jack May]

In fact, as a carpet inspector, I'd LOVE to get my hands on such a claim!!

Contact Col nation and refer him to the carpet cleaning company and I'd be surprised if his fee wasn't justified, especially if the manufacturers guidelines were not followed as I suspect.

If you have any queries, PM me and I'll try to assist further.

John

 

[Jack May]

Further to my above comments, what cleaning system was employed? HWE or prespray of an encap detergent?

That may influence the success or otherwise of a carpet inspectors report.

John

 

[Harry Myers]

Here is the problem.Latex (coating) . Without this coating the sisal would be a birds nest. Now it should have been glued down. With a 1/8 x 3/16 X 1/18 inch trowel around or simular. This is where someone who does not know installation specs screws up. The reason the coating didnt hold. The natual fiber (Sisal) Shrunk enough to rip apart from its body.You could rub the coating off with your fingers. Anyway it should have been verified type of install prior. When I make area rugs with Sisal I do use seam tape. Or I make a cold seam with latex. That is a bad one It does need to be replaced . Find out the company that installed it to mis specification. Best way to clean that is Host or Encap .

 

[roro]

Tim
We have seen similar situation in the past which was only resolved with total replacement.

Suggest you contact Col Nation or Michael Mulquinney (sp?-forgive me Cousin) direct. They should be able to put you on to the appropriate joint Aust/NZ standards and a contact for the laying industry. Any complaint is probably best dealt through the relevant flooring association because WOOLS and IICRC inspectors are largely unrecognised downunder and so any report that they prepare would not necessarily carry much weight.

.

roro

 

[harryhides]

Even if the specs DID allow for a stretch-in, it should have had architectural or double tackless strip.

Only time I've eve seen that kind of shrinkage on a wool carpet was when it was flooded.

 

[Harry Myers]

That is not a stretch in product. Direct glue or double glue only. Even on a rug they will not waurantee it due to its hydroscopic nature very aclimatical.

 

[The Great Oz]

Sisal is commonly installed as a stretch-in in the Seattle area, with two differences: It usually isn't advisable to install it in a room wider than 15 feet (the maximum width you can get the stuff) to avoid seams, and the best seam will be sewn and backed by latex/scrim. The carpet pictured is not worth saving, the best fix would be to educate the carpet owner about better options, particularly since the carpet cleaning company will be buying it.

While there may be some issues with the installation, every carpet cleaner should know that if you get sisal wet with HWE it will shrink so fast it will move you across the room. Unless the tech really soaked it, I doubt just prespray caused this much shrinkage.

If it were my case to judge I'd blame the carpet cleaner, 100%, for not knowing any better than to wet clean installed sisal. It doesn't matter that sisal carpet is junk, or the installation wasn't the best. I'd be willing to bet that direct glued sisal will leave the foam backing on the floor as it shrinks too.

Sorry Tim.



Two stories of many:
We replaced sisal throughout a condo sales model unit because one of our techs slept through the natural fiber carpet part of his training and wet cleaned it. They were entertaining the mayor and city council the next day, trying to get approval to build higher than zoning would allow. We had to have the replacement carpet installed before noon the next day. (They put sisal back in, but said they would replace it when they sold the unit.)

A customer that had moved into a house with stained sisal wall-to-wall in the basement demanded that we try to clean it. I offered to come out with a tech and clean a few feet to show her what to expect. She'd be on the hook for our minimum charge if things did not go well and we decided to quit. Host and a dry foam made no difference. Our tech started extracting, the carpet was cleaning up well, and by the time he'd moved six feet the carpet popped off of the tack strip. We stood and watched it pull in about three inches before it stopped, and I told her we wouldn't charge anything if she promised to replace it with actual carpet.

 

[Harry Myers]

Brian you quoted the real world. But the specs are only specific for a glued down application. I do to much of it not to know. That is why I said the cleaner should have checked the type of installation . It is both the cleaners fault along with the floring company. I guarantee the installer just went ahead and did his job with just as much knowledge as the cleaner. I also know you know they wont even warantee a rug . Why it is not adhered.

 

[Cousin]

One 'n' Roro, otherwise spot on


Australian Standards 2455.1 makes no reference to sisal carpet installations.

For particular product installations (away from the commonly found tufted and woven products) the textile manufacturers installation specifications shall be followed.


This is a spec of one manufacturer/distributor in Australia. Excuse the length, editing it may cause confusion/misinterpretation.

And I'll comment here, cos I know plenty won't make it to the bottom!

IF this specification relates to the carpet in the above pics, it's been laid correctly (and I cannot say I agree with it, but let's stick to facts).

'No cross joins' can't see any.

'Heat bond tape to be used' evident

'Architectural smoothedge' also evident

'Jute or jute/hair combo underlay (padding for you guys)' a reconstituted fibre underlay has been used on this install, which has similar, if not superior property's to jute (alone) underlay.

So IF this sisal carpet (sic) is supplied with the installation specs below, the layer did the job correctly (and I'm having trouble saying that)

It would be an interesting case if it went to court

Did the client do their due diligence in selecting this floor covering?
Did the retailer specify with 'fit for intended purpose' in mind?
Did the manufacturer produce a product that is 'fit for intended purposes' and did they give sufficient thought to the installation guidelines?
Did the layer follow installation guidelines, and if so, did he also use experience, training and industry knowledge in installing this product so as also to be 'fit for intended purpose'?
Did the carpet cleaner follow guidelines for cleaning this textile, and did he also use experience, training and industry knowledge in cleaning this product so as also to be 'fit for intended purpose'


And the installation specs;


Installation Guide for Sisal & Coir Natural Fibre Carpets
There are two methods of installing natural fibre carpet. Below are some general points on
installation, but should you have any enquiries you can contact a Style Plantation outlet
closest to you.
We do not recommend Cross Joining of our material.

Method 1. Direct Stick or Double Bond Method
Prepare the floor as you would for any traditional carpet direct stick installation.
For the best finish, install carpet gripper/smoothedge and glue double bond slab underlay
down following the manufacture’s instructions ensuring that the underfelt joins do not
coincide with the carpet joins.
Roll the carpet out and cut it in roughly so that it is flat, but leave the seams over lapped. Pull
back one half of each width either side of the join and spread the adhesive following the
manufacture’s instructions, but leave a gap of 15cm either side of the join free of adhesive.
Drop both sides of the carpet on to the adhesive and then use a heavy roller to roll the carpet
into the adhesive. This will ensure a good bond is achieved.
When the main body of the installation is glued to the floor, double cut in the seams, then
open up the seam in lengths of 2 metres at a time and repeat the gluing process, when you
have glued the second lot of 2 metres, then go back and roll the first 2 metres of joining, and
repeat this process until seam is completed.
Recommended adhesives: Holdfast SG 226, Robert’s 6037, Intercover 603 or any recognized
outdoor artificial grass adhesive.
Coverage: Most adhesives will give you approximately 2 square metres to 1 litre of adhesive
but this depends on the sub-floor surface, if you have any doubts at all about the absorbency
of the sub-floor use a floor sealer (see adhesive manufactures specifications) prior to
installation.

Method 2. On Quality Underfelt with Carpet Gripper
Prepare floor as you would for any traditional carpet installation over an underlay.
Install carpet gripper/smoothedge and underfelt, ensuring that the underfelt joins
do not coincide with the carpet joins. Installing Coir Carpet
There are two ways of joining Coir together, the first method below has be done for decades
and is the most widely used method, the second is a method that IFA have developed over
many years, but you must adhere to the guidelines set down, if you take short cuts in any
way this method of joining will fail.
(A) Roll the carpet out and cut it in roughly so that it is flat, butting the seams together
selvedge to selvedge. To join the Coir, turn one of the sides over on top of the other so the
Coir is laying face against face and over sew the two widths together using a waxed linen
thread. When seaming has been done spread out the carpet again. Just before you start to
install the Coir sprinkle water only over the area that you are working on to an approximate
rate of 1/2 lt. to 4 square metres, this will expand the Coir carpet and make it easier to
stretch on to the gripper/smoothedge. A power stretcher can be used to stretch long lengths
of Coir, but a standard knee kicker will do for smaller areas. Trim in and staple the Coir to the
gripper/smoothedge as you go using 14mm long staples.
(B) Firstly it is best that this method of joining Coir together is prepared in the work room the
day before installation, this allows the joins to set. If this is not possible, after you have
joined the Coir together on site, leave joins to set overnight without putting any tension on
the seams. However if this is still not possible, after joining the Coir together you must, stop
nail off either side of the full length of the joins, before you stretch the Coir, these nails will
help stabiles the join but again they must be left in overnight.
(B1). Roll the carpet out and cut it in roughly so that it is flat, but leave the seams over
lapped. Trim off each side with a pair of shears or top cutter, making sure you cut back into
the latex backing, once this is done run a bead of PVA wood glue down the cut edge of either
pieces, and heat bond together using a quality foil heat tape. This joining method must be
allowed to set for approximately 18 hours before you can put any tension in it.
N.B. Only water down the areas you are working on. DO NOT water down any of the joins or
the entire area at once.

Sisal carpet
Prepare floor as you would for any traditional carpet installation over an underlay.
Install carpet gripper/smoothedge and underfelt, ensuring that the underfelt joins do not
coincide with the carpet joins.
Roll the carpet out and cut the carpet in roughly so it is flat, leaving the seams over lapped.
Trim off each side with a pair of shears or top cutter, once this is done run a bead of PVA
wood glue down the cut edge of one of the pieces, and join the Sisals together using a top
quality heat tape. It is advisable to leave the seam to set for an hour before you start
stretching the Sisal on to the gripper/smoothedge. A powerstrecher can be used to stretch
long lengths of Sisal, but a standard kneekicker will do for smaller areas. Trim in and staple
the Sisal on to the gripper/smoothedge as you go using 12mm long staples.
If you get a few creases in the Sisal and you cannot kick them out, spray the creased area
with a fine mist of water, but only do this after you have completed the installation. This
method will tighten the Sisal fibres and pull out the affected areas.
N.B. For the best possible results, we recommend that all natural fibre carpets are
installed using architectural smoothedge and put on a 7lb 100% Jute, Jute/Hair
combination commercial underfelt or Bridgestone Cushion Pad.




M

 

[breezeman]

Well, stated Micheal.
Did you see the force it had on pulling the tack strip off the the concrete, It looks more than just a prespray. I have wet cleand sisal before, but you have to be very careful and use a brown- out after cleaning.
Deron

 

[timlakeman]

Thanks guys for all your input. I posted this because I knew there would be a lot of opinions floating around (all valid). I personally would not touch the stuff, even when I was cleaning carpets I would walk from anything that even looked remotely like sisal. It proves that all carpet cleaners need to know about this and should be trained either to know what to look for (and walk) or to know correct cleaning methods.
I've only been in the trade for 3 yrs now and this is the second time I have come across this problem.

Thanks all!!