"Do Acid Rinses Cause Browning?"

[Jim Pemberton]

I understand that there was a webinar last night, or recently, where some of the material and some of the commentary implied that cleaning a fabric with an acid rinse would cause browning.

I also understand the the subject matter was actually about flame retardent materials on upholstery fabric ticking, which is acidic in nature, but has nothing to do with acid rinsing of fabrics.

Can anyone give me some more detail on the discussion?

If the above statement was actually believed by anyone, I would like to clear it up; the statement is misleading, and can possibly cause someone some big problems.

If I'm wrong, let me know too, then I'll get back to stirring the hornet's nest some more about "encap" and let this one go

 

[Desk Jockey]

then I'll get back to stirring the hornet's nest some more about "encap" and let this one go

Hey now!

 

[Mark Saiger]

Heard about that Webinar but agree with you Jim. Also I believe the guy running that show and talking about it is a technician for a company and his information and knowledge he gets on chemistry is from his brother in law.


I have had a few discussions with him when he shows up on Facebook making some comments. His brother in law does not know our industry by any means I understand.

I have had a discussion with Richard about this gentleman as a matter of fact. Richard you might recall our private message conversations about that person when I was trying to find out if you knew him.

 

[Desk Jockey]

Yea he's a fookin re....he's stoopid!

Mark you are a Saint, I don't know how you put up with those guys.

 

[Jim Pemberton]

I think some clarification of this issue is in order:

FACT: Flame retardant coatings on cushion ticking are acidic in nature

FACT: Off gassing of these flame retardants may cause color loss, red stains, or brown stains on fabric.

FACT: This damage begins to occur as soon as upholstery fabric is exposed to the flame retardant

FACT: Cleaning with any water based solution (regardless of pH) causes this condition to become more apparent, but it would have happened anyway over time.

Also

FACT: Using an acid rinse when cleaning upholstery lessens the chances of cellulose browning, color bleeding, color fading, water marks, and leaves a soft hand on fabrics.

FACT: Rinsing fabrics with alkaline detergents because one might believe a higher pH residue left on a fabric might make it less susceptible to color damage from flame retardant is risky, and there is no proof that it will prevent this color damage from occuring. I have studied several cases of this discoloration, and as many color damage claims happened after cleaning the fabric with an alkaline detergent as occured when an acid rinse was used.

FACT: While there are some dyes that bleed to acidic rinse agents, they are extraordinarily rare (I have found two in 36 years of training and consulting in upholstery cleaning), and can be easily detected during testing.

FACT: I have never seen browning caused by the use of an acid rinse.

 

[Mikey P]

FACT: I have never seen browning caused by the use of an acid rinse.

what about wicking from over use?

 

[Jim Pemberton]

what about wicking from over use?

On upholstery? No.

On carpet? Do you mean the product was overused (diluted wrong), or the carpet was rinsed very frequently at the same concentration?

 

[Mikey P]

I've followed other cleaners who came back to fix their own brown outs by doing an acid rinse and either had poor results or made it worse.


Caused one notable job myself back in the Coit days on a berber I very much recall..

 

[Jimmy L]

Thats why they have powdered browning treatment.

 

[Jim Pemberton]

I've followed other cleaners who came back to fix their own brown outs by doing an acid rinse and either had poor results or made it worse.


Caused one notable job myself back in the Coit days on a berber I very much recall..

Back in those days there were some acid rinses that promoted resoiling, contrary to popular belief. Some organic acids are sticky by nature, as are many of the surfactants used with those acid rinses.

As much as I hate to admit it, both Wool Safe and CRI SOA approvals brought those "dirty little secrets" to light, and that isn't the problem it once was.

 

[Mark Saiger]

Now this is why a person should be on this board... Priceless Information!!

 

[SamIam]

Also one thing to think about when doing a correction is how dry is it??? if some hack do it yourselfer got loose and it caused a wick, wait a few days to make sure the over wetting is dry.

You could go do everything right to correct and still see more wicking if the moisture is coming from the pad.

I get alot of this with do it yourself Diahrea spots where the client sinks the stink and pooh. they want it out right away but usually it will always wick if treated same day.

probably best to OSR and subsurface.

 

[SamIam]

Jim if you use an acetic rinse on haitian cotton it could and probably will brown.

I saw a haitain years ago with red and blue lines colored in the fabric, the dyes just exploded every where using haitian powder.

I ended up pre treating with TLC and rinsing with a strong charged haitian and acetic rince packing with absorb astain and it helped, customer was happy we did our best. Took me a week messing with it.

One of my guys did it and never tested with a terry towel!

Fortunately I've never seen the flame retardent color change.

 

[Mike Draper]

We dont use acid rinse or soft water. Since we live in a van down by the river we advertise pure mtn spring water rinse and its chemical free.

 

[Nate The Great]

We dont use acid rinse or soft water. Since we live in a van down by the river we advertise pure mtn spring water rinse and its chemical free.

Do bears pee in the river?

 

[Mike Draper]

no, its perfect spring water from natural mountain glaciers in Antarctica

 

[Nate The Great]

Who besides @Mark Saiger cleans in Antarctic weather?!?!

 

[Mike Draper]

I've cleaned many times in - below zero temps. Coldest ever was -21. Absolutely miserable, my heat still rocked though...

 

[SamIam]

Total Foghat in that weather. Where's Draper? in the mist steaming up a storm.

 

[KevinL]

Has anyone encountered this flame retardant yet and was it mentioned on the cleaning tag? joke right?

 

[Mark Saiger]

Who besides @Mark Saiger cleans in Antarctic weather?!?!

 

[Jim Pemberton]

Jim if you use an acetic rinse on haitian cotton it could and probably will brown.

I saw a haitain years ago with red and blue lines colored in the fabric, the dyes just exploded every where using haitian powder.

I ended up pre treating with TLC and rinsing with a strong charged haitian and acetic rince packing with absorb astain and it helped, customer was happy we did our best. Took me a week messing with it.

One of my guys did it and never tested with a terry towel!

Fortunately I've never seen the flame retardent color change.

Thanks Sam.

Point taken.

The original "beloved" Haitian Cotton reminded me of mop strands woven together with a layer of glue on the back. Acid rinsing didn't do anything helpful with them except maybe give you a "tan" instead of a "dark chocolate" browning!

Having to clean that "stuff" (not the word I called it then) with strong reducing agents just left it stiff and stinky and I can't imagine why people let us do that. Sometimes we did the old fashioned "dry wet dry" method, sometimes we pretreated it with a solvent based fluorochemical, let it cure, then used low moisture cleaning and acid rinsing.

All of it time consuming and horrible.

Of all of our industry's nightmares, that's one I'm grateful is mostly over.

We have lots of "natural cotton" out there today, but fortunately the yarns are more tightly twisted, and they don't "mop up" our cleaner.

I still stand by my statement that in today's cleaning world, its incredibly unlikely that rinsing with an acid will cause browning in comparison to rinsing with an alkaline, or even clear water.

...and Sam, may you never see a flame retardant color change.

Tip: Be VERY suspicious of down filled cushions. It shows up in other places, but that's when most see it.

 

[ruff]

Jim, since you frequently mention the risk of cleaning down filled cushions, what do you recommend for real life upholstery cleaning?
Meaning that the sofa is lived on, there are kids and pets in the house. In other words "dry" cleaning does not do anything, it does not even tickle it clean. These situations demand a good pre-spray, agitation and a deep flushing. Beside the release of liability form.

One thing that I do, is pull the fiber (lift) (the vacuum will hold on to it) while doing the cleaning pass, therefore the fiber while being flushed is separated from the padding material. However, that cannot be done all the time.

I must be lucky, since I clean a lot of down filled cushions and have not yet had any of the described discoloration. I hope my like continues.

 

[Jim Pemberton]

From a cleaning perspective, just don't overwet them to the point that the down gets wet.

Here's the problem with the flame retardant issue though:

It will happen over time, even if you never get the furniture cleaned. Cleaning just speeds the process up. Also, the damage has occured to the fabric, so pulling the down and the ticking out and bagging them in plastic probably won't help.

People who watch one of the zombie series tell me that everyone has the virus that makes them zombies, but it doesn't do anything till they are killed.

The fabric is already "infected".

But lets assume you can at least "tickle it" (funny analogy, I like it) with dry cleaning. When the fabric fades, browns, or turns red over time, guess who they will blame?

...the last person to touch it.

So you can just refuse to clean fabrics that are down filled, or you can write up some kind of statement that you aren't responsible for color damage that might occur, or you can gamble.

I wish I had a better way to advise you to handle this, but its the best I can see for you to do.

 

[Mikey P]

Jim how much testing have you done with Flex ICE and what have your customers been reporting?

 

[Scott S.]

Acid rinses dont cause browning and help most when cleaning natural fibers. Cleaned this the other night with the upholstery pro. No bleeding, but was using a the upholstery pro and i controlled the water to exactly what i needed to clean the fabric.
This is am after picture.

 

[J Scott W]

For cleaning - if you decide to take the risk.

Most down filled upholstery is high-end. They don't put down inside the olefin Lazy Boy or microfiber sofa. When cleaning highe nd upholstery where you are likely to run into issues, charge a premium price. Let that income pay for insurance and let you relax a bit.

Thorough inspection first. Look for any color changes already occurring. Look for possible colro changes to the ticking as well as to the outer fabric covering. If you see brown / yellow / orange etc. Consider turning down the job. Get a disclaimer at the very least.

Even though it will not prevent color change issues in the future, do cover the inner ticking and cushion with plactic. Then use a low moisture tool. Both steps help keep any cleaning moiture away from the interior. Don't remove the plastic until after the upholstery is 100% dry.

Educate your customer about what to expect in the future.

 

[Nate The Great]

Jim, since you frequently mention the risk of cleaning down filled cushions, what do you recommend for real life upholstery cleaning?
Meaning that the sofa is lived on, there are kids and pets in the house. In other words "dry" cleaning does not do anything, it does not even tickle it clean. These situations demand a good pre-spray, agitation and a deep flushing. Beside the release of liability form.

One thing that I do, is pull the fiber (lift) (the vacuum will hold on to it) while doing the cleaning pass, therefore the fiber while being flushed is separated from the padding material. However, that cannot be done all the time.

I must be lucky, since I clean a lot of down filled cushions and have not yet had any of the described discoloration. I hope my like continues.

We see it a lot here with down filled cushions... Explain it to the customer it's like a white cotton dress shirt hanging in the closet over time.... It starts to get those spots, it's inevitable...

We do take off the covers and wrap the cushion in a trash bag, put cover back on, prespray-clean-dry.... Take bag off the cushion a day later... The good thing for us is most of the time we get the cushions back in-plant and can take the appropriate steps (not rushed on the job site) to correct the problem...

Some get a nice mist of H2o2 and some sun to get rid of the humidity spots as we call them...

We advise the customer to recover the upholstery if it's really bad.... Oh and not to use down filling for the cushion... The people who have that type of furniture has discretionary money that don't care about...

 

[Desk Jockey]

Nate do people run dehumidifiers over there or is the humidity level just something everyone deals with? I'd think you'd have constant problems with mold. ???

 

[Scott S.]

incase any one was interested. Pembertons sells upholstery cleaning forms that have all the right info, and disclaimer info you would ever need for cleaning a high risk pc of furniture. Just call Jim and ask him about it. 800-342-2297