Does a Kunkle valve destroy truckmounts...

[White-Magic rebuilder]

...I'm getting nasty e-mails saying Kunkles destroy carpetcleaning machines. :shock: Has anyones unit here blown because of using one? If you have one please reply...
Thanks,Rob Jr.

 

[Guest]

I dont know anything about Kunkles but Nick has stopped using them on his EZ's except upon request by customers. He's switched over to a "free air" system that seems to be working great. He's taking some heat from a few so called experts saying its a bad idea but he seems to think its as good or better than a Kunkle.

Jeff

 

[Scott Rogers]

Free air what the hell is that about?

 

[Shawn Forsythe]

Any device which increases performance and/or stresses a mechanical device has the potential to cause problems. Truckmounts are not simple commodities. They all have a variation in ability to be "hotrodded". Most high end units are quite adept at accepting the Kunkle without a problem. The supplier of the Kunkle valve should be able to determine whether your particular unit is a good candidate. If he can't, or has very little experiance, maybe you should consult with someone who is experienced.

We have sold many, many units with only 1 problem thus far, and it was human error of the end user which was the issue, not the machine or the install. However, we have also advised a few customers that their particular unit would probably not support a Kunkle, and thus we declined to sell one in those few cases.

The determining factors are:

1. Engine power/load ratio
2. Coupling design and condition
3. Wastetank design and/or condition
4. Condition of vacuum gauge
5. The user's attentiveness to care
6. CFM output of blower in relation to available valve size(s)

 

[Guest]

The short answer to Nicks "free flow" is a controled leak. For a more comprehensive explanation you will have to ask Nick. I believe Odin has a better understanding than myself also.

Jeff

 

[Mikey P]

A PVC 2" cap with some holes drilled in it to achieve 14" when the wand is on the carpet...


Free is right....

 

[JohnnyV]

There's a bit more to it and that and the machine I saw running was pulling a bit more than that. Truckmounts are not Rocket Science. The sooner everyone understands that, the sooner they'll have a machine that will do what they intend for it to do. Clean Carpets and give excellent dry times.

 

[Guest]

Assuming you are right Mike and it is nothing more than that. Why so condescending about it if it works and works well?

If one of my customers want a Kunkle they are welcome to it. I would like to know why it is better though. Maybe some of you experts in here can chime in.

Jeff

 

[Scott Rogers]

So it leaks all the time? Why would that be a good thing?

 

[Scott Rogers]

So it leaks all the time? Why would that be a good thing?

 

[Farenheit251]

My kunkle doesn't cycle on sculptured berber. Why would I want to leak air when cleaning it? Brian E

 

[Guest]

If your Kunkle is not cycling on sculpted berber thats because you have a controled leak at the wand lips right? I think the same principle applies to Nick's design. Im just guessing though. Ill admit I dont have a full understanding the cfm and lift concepts.

 

[FastEddie]

A "controlled leak" is what I did by porting out extra channels on my glides to increase air flow and cause the Kunkle not to cycle. It's better to have air going into the glide than into the waste tank.

 

[Guest]

Hello, I have found that a controlled leak works better than standard relief valves and kunkles.

lets take a standard machine 20 hp and a 45 blower for example.

WHen the machine is operating even with a kunkle it still opens and closes and whistles or chirps. IF the kunkle is set at 15 or 16 hg the engine has a tendency to bogg. Same with the standard spring and washer method..

A kunkle or spring and washer system will allow you to have the hg set at 15 or 16 hg with a bogg down. What does this translate to. well if you have a 20 hp engine and a 45 blower 15 or 16 hg the rpms will be about 3000 to 3150 rpms this = less heat at HX and less airflow because the blower can not spin at top efficiancy.

ON free flow system the 20 hp engine and 45 blower set at 15 or 16 hg virtually have no bogg the rpm will bounce between 3600 and 3525. THis gives you more heat at the hx and better airflow wich = faster dry times.

I have found the dry times and water recovery to be superior. with FREE FLOW

NICK

 

[truckmount girl]

Nick,

When we have set up systems we have found that with underpowered blower to engine ratios, like the 20 hp/45 blower you mentioned, we just set the Kunkle/Bayco to the highest lift possible without bogging the motor while the wand is on the carpet working. For a unit like that I would figure 12-13 hg would be right, depending on whether the engine was air or water-cooled.

If you have a controlled leak anywhere other than directly at the carpet wand interface you are losing CFM at the carpet, where you need it most.

Maybe if you explain your system more, I will understand what you are doing/trying to create.

Take care,
Lisa

 

[Guest]

Nick is delivering one near Needles, Ca. if anyone want to see a demo. Supposed to be leaving around Friday I think.

Anyone here near I-40 between Dallas/Ft.Worth and Needles,Ca.?

 

[Greenie]

I'm with Fast Eddie on this one.

As for free flow, been there and done that, and not by choice, it was a necessity trying to drive a 47 with a 25hp (read as underpowered), it wouldn't support a Kunkle at 14"hg, but I wanted the additional airflow from the wide lobes of the 47, so I had to find a leak point that kept the blower turning at 3000 rpms without bogging the motor.

I understand what Nick is after, he wants the engine to scream and still make good heat, and he wants the blower to scream and still generate good airflow, all commendable, But it's hard to do all of the above with a Kunkle set at 16", just not enough horsepower to blower ratio.

No matter how you slice it, nothing can compare to having a vac relief 100% closed, and by default 100% of your avail. vacuum communicated to the wand, until the point where the motor struggles, then pop! it relieves, and resets. This condition will get more water out of carpet at 300' every single time.

 

[R W]

I found that using spring/washer system from Steamway, I can achieve a consistant 14-15 in pull with no bogg down. I can even get the Genesis 59 to bogg at about 16 or more. Not good for the belts or other drive train parts. It does cycle, depending on how tight the carpet is.

 

[Guest]

Ask John Von Nida how many feet of hose was hooked up at the time this was taken but i think it was several hundred feet.

 

[Greenie]

It's funny to see all the talk that will continue literally for years over this subject. Even to the point that Mfgs. will try to "engineer" their own version...all for what? Why not use something that is proven, and already exist?

In volume they aren't THAT expensive, we buy a bunch.

btw: Lisa just told me our current price is $219 on a 2" Bayco.

 

[Dolly Llama]

I don't know what relief valves
come on every machine.
But the stock valve on my PM
breaks pretty cleanly.
When set at 14hg with wand on the carpet,
it makes a shh-shh-shh sound.

With wand off the carpet it will drop to 10 or so hg.
I can't hear any air leak till about 13hg
At 14 it starts to "cycle" with the shh-shh-shh sound
and never drops below 14.

If a Bayco cycles and drops a couple hg
then resets, i don't see how I'll gain any advantage


..L.T.A.

 

[Greenie]

Meat, I'd ask some powermatic owners who have had it both ways, and not focus on this boards guesses to much.

 

[JohnnyV]

I have No Idea what those 2 guys are talking about! I've never seen, heard or talked to anyone involved in this thread!....you guys ain't drawing me into no dang lawsuits!........lol. I've seen the Fancy air flow thing in action and it boggled the brain. You'd think that you'd be losing CFM. It worked fine. The guy let someone at an Interlink store tell him that it was dangerous....This guy at the interlink store installed a fancy cap, spring and a bunch of holes drilled in the cap.....Guess what happens as soon as you start it up? The spring pulls open.I personally think that spring thing needs to come off of there and the original cap put back on. Lol, people are/were saying that the Kubota's not big enough for that 56 blower.....BULL! It has Plenty of power to spare.

JohnnyV

 

[Guest]

Greenie, dont get the wrong idea. I didnt post this stuff to tear down the Kunkle type valves. Long Live Kunkle and Bayco!

Nick told me a few months ago about his design change and I thought he was just being a cheapscape(sorry Nick). So I thought Id investagate. But what do I know? So i figure id get on the message boards and start a dialog and let the experts(not me) duke it out. The more I read though the more Im convinced that he is on to something.

I hope the dialog continues. I love the flow of information that comes from these boards. I have been reading past threads over at the Red board the last few days. Remember when Ken Harris, Bob Savage, Duane Oxley, Dale Collins, Lee Stockwell and many more used to debate on CFM, Lift and etc...? I miss that.

 

[Guest]

PS. Sorry for messing up this thread with such a huge picture. Maybe the admin can resize it.

Jeff

 

[Greenie]

You are right, let the confusion begin...lol

 

[JohnnyV]

The problem is that it's not really something that can be set and then sent out. I think they'd have to be tuned to each individual unit. He should have disguised it as something more complicated. Hmmm.......nevermind.

 

[Dolly Llama]

Meat, I'd ask some powermatic owners who have had it both ways, and not focus on this boards guesses to much.

Make sure you find out if their stock relief valves
were working right and what they had them set at.
The brass bushing in them can crack/wear and cause them
then not to break cleanly.
I had to replace my valve once due to a cracked bushing.
Another less mechanical guy or one who doesn't pay
attention to small details might not have noticed

Better yet, if you have a used 14hg bayco laying around,
send it out and I'll see for myself.
If it improves anything, I'll buy it.
If not, I'll ship it back

Not that I don't trust other peeps as being sincere,
just that I've determined
there's a whole bunch of folks who have made claims
that I haven't personally found to be accurate

Like i said, I'm sure most are sincere,
but maybe some don't pay as much attention to detail,
or I'm doing something different than them


..L.T.A.

 

[Greenie]

That's an excellent idea, the cost of postage isn't that bad, you pay for it to you, and I'll pay for it back, as this jives with the GG philosophy, everything we sell is 100% money back.

I do wonder though, what are you seeking from the Bayco, 10% more vacuum? The ability to do one dry pass instead of two? The ability to run longer hose runs?

Just want to make sure you are going down the right path.

For some, it's just as valuable to upgrade hose size.

 

[JohnnyV]

I know Kunkles aren't, but alot of the relief valves I've seen are nothing more than Backflow sewer valves. You know the ones that are brass and threaded....I suppose maybe they have different springs in them....