Dusty vs Tom
- Thread starter Mikey P
- Start date
rhyde
Member
the portable duster existed before either of these guys
Mikey P
Administrator
Any history Oh Wise One?
rhyde
Member
hild made one years ago john watson owns one
Remember when the crap hit the fan after one manufacturer paid for the other guy to attend Connections and most all expenses, only to be dumped on, big-time.
Compare the quality in the build of the various machines that they sell.
The list of satisfied customers compared to the silence of others that have the blues is also worthy of note.
It's my belief that many friendships were broken when the pack came together and started snapping at the heels.
But c'est la vie, that's business folks.
Ooroo,
:roll:
Compare the quality in the build of the various machines that they sell.
The list of satisfied customers compared to the silence of others that have the blues is also worthy of note.
It's my belief that many friendships were broken when the pack came together and started snapping at the heels.
But c'est la vie, that's business folks.
Ooroo,
:roll:
The Great Oz
Member
Some of the most beloved people in this industry got started as thieves who buried the guys that came up with an original idea. They still wouldn't be sitting on a pile of money if they didn't do something better than the guy they stole from.
This was the backdrop for advice to Steve when he was first interested in building portable dusters; build the best one he could and constantly improve it. Get it out and market the heck out of it. The only way anyone can compete is to build a cheaper one. Steve did a remarkable job of networking and marketing, and he listens to complaints and suggestions. One comment about how it would be nice if the extractor could rinse and no more were delivered until a rinse process was in place.
Tom came into the market from a different perspective, intially trying to build a Moore-style flatbed, and maybe a new and improved version. He found this to be a hugely expensive proposition, but also saw the need for something between a fully automated plant and the driveway.
As far as copying goes, the Hild was around a long time ago but wasn't nearly as good as the RugBadger, and centrifugal extractors have been in use in Europe for a long time as well. I'm sorry I can't remember the name of the Canadian guy that got the mini-plant idea going by importing Katsas extractors and building portable dry towers. He could be upset that he has competition too.
http://www.katsas.com/washing.htmlAny wonder why no one is interested in a copy of these washers?
PS: Katsas predates what we're familiar with, but they copied someone else...
This was the backdrop for advice to Steve when he was first interested in building portable dusters; build the best one he could and constantly improve it. Get it out and market the heck out of it. The only way anyone can compete is to build a cheaper one. Steve did a remarkable job of networking and marketing, and he listens to complaints and suggestions. One comment about how it would be nice if the extractor could rinse and no more were delivered until a rinse process was in place.
Tom came into the market from a different perspective, intially trying to build a Moore-style flatbed, and maybe a new and improved version. He found this to be a hugely expensive proposition, but also saw the need for something between a fully automated plant and the driveway.
As far as copying goes, the Hild was around a long time ago but wasn't nearly as good as the RugBadger, and centrifugal extractors have been in use in Europe for a long time as well. I'm sorry I can't remember the name of the Canadian guy that got the mini-plant idea going by importing Katsas extractors and building portable dry towers. He could be upset that he has competition too.
http://www.katsas.com/washing.htmlAny wonder why no one is interested in a copy of these washers?
PS: Katsas predates what we're familiar with, but they copied someone else...
harryhides
Member
I think that the Canadian guy was Greg Turcotte from Calgary.
I met him when we both took the Rug cleaning class from Phil Auserehl and Ron Toney - http://www.orientalrugcleaning.com/
It was a great 5 day class, long before the iicrc had a Rug Cleaning class. His method offered the only option between a Moore machine and a driveway that I knew of and no doubt was the seed for many other alternatives now available. I see some similarities now in the system being utilized and sold by Bishop and Travis.
Phil's method of using compressed air to "dust" the rugs before immersion cleaning them and again using compressed air for agitation under water and again to speed the drying process.
Rumour has it that one summer yrs ago, Phil came across two old geezers in their 70's somewhere in Wyoming using compressed air for dusting alone.
Phil bought them out, refined and improved his system based on the old geezers basic idea. And so it goes.
So there you have it, some of these guys worked together before things went sour.
John Guerkink's main competitor who now makes the Challenger OP machines used to work for John..........
I met him when we both took the Rug cleaning class from Phil Auserehl and Ron Toney - http://www.orientalrugcleaning.com/
It was a great 5 day class, long before the iicrc had a Rug Cleaning class. His method offered the only option between a Moore machine and a driveway that I knew of and no doubt was the seed for many other alternatives now available. I see some similarities now in the system being utilized and sold by Bishop and Travis.
Phil's method of using compressed air to "dust" the rugs before immersion cleaning them and again using compressed air for agitation under water and again to speed the drying process.
Rumour has it that one summer yrs ago, Phil came across two old geezers in their 70's somewhere in Wyoming using compressed air for dusting alone.
Phil bought them out, refined and improved his system based on the old geezers basic idea. And so it goes.
So there you have it, some of these guys worked together before things went sour.
John Guerkink's main competitor who now makes the Challenger OP machines used to work for John..........
Mikey P
Administrator
Brain, does DA Burns runs a centrifuge?
if not , why?
if not , why?
The Great Oz
Member
Ask someone that uses a centrifuge what the load/run/unload time is and you'll know why anyone doing a large volume of rugs would default to a compression wringer. Given enough run time a centrifuge will remove more water, but the time involved would kill us. Setting up four or five and having the crews to feed them so we could keep a wash on schedule wouldn't make sense.
Low volume, no dry room? A centrifuge is a good choice, 'cause you sure can't get away with hanging them wet.
Low volume, no dry room? A centrifuge is a good choice, 'cause you sure can't get away with hanging them wet.
rhyde
Member
yep,, Bryan would need 6 -8 centrifuges to keep up with the washer and extra employees to load/unload and hang the rugs. The cost of the employees would negate the savings in time and energy from a centrifuge. The one area it could make sense are rush jobs ..1 day turnaround you can get enough water with most rugs out there’s no fringe work, or wicking
Ken Snow
RIP
I am sure like us Bryan's co can handle 1 day turn around without the extractor. Fringe work can be done while still damp if needed.
My centrifuge is set to run for 5 minutes. I have not let it run that long yet. After about 3 minutes the water that comes out is so minute, I don't see any reason to run it longer.
There is a couple minutes rollling it in the pit and getting it in the wringer. Getting the rug out and on a pole take very little time.
I really like how a wringer picks the rug up. I hope the lift and conveyor Clark is working on deals well with that problem using a centrifuge. Rolling a lifting a lafge wet rug into the centrifuge is a problem.
There is a couple minutes rollling it in the pit and getting it in the wringer. Getting the rug out and on a pole take very little time.
I really like how a wringer picks the rug up. I hope the lift and conveyor Clark is working on deals well with that problem using a centrifuge. Rolling a lifting a lafge wet rug into the centrifuge is a problem.
rhyde
Member
Ken you know or should that there are issues that pop up in drying that aren’t apparent when a rug is wet not just fringe issues. As for fringe working on wet fringe it’s a crap shot, if there’s enough water in the foundation you can use all the stripper, fringe cleaners/browning treatment you want and it still won’t look good .
I think a centrifuge is a cool piece of equipment however the rugs that really benefit from a centrifuge… are back breaking to put in the darn thing …. 9x12 90L, Gabbeh, Tibetan and there are things you simply cannot run through a centrifuge. My belief was Moore wringer can compress enough water out to make many large rugs much more manageable and tyhat was the market but it’s clear really large wash operations with this capability like Ken and Bryan see no need/ value. So where the market is for this, Where’s this piece of equipment fit in the business? At 35-40K why is Clark building this thing when there's proven working Turkish machines out there and at a much better price ?
I think a centrifuge is a cool piece of equipment however the rugs that really benefit from a centrifuge… are back breaking to put in the darn thing …. 9x12 90L, Gabbeh, Tibetan and there are things you simply cannot run through a centrifuge. My belief was Moore wringer can compress enough water out to make many large rugs much more manageable and tyhat was the market but it’s clear really large wash operations with this capability like Ken and Bryan see no need/ value. So where the market is for this, Where’s this piece of equipment fit in the business? At 35-40K why is Clark building this thing when there's proven working Turkish machines out there and at a much better price ?
Ken Snow
RIP
soryy to disagree with you randy, but if we run a rug through the ringer and air blow the fringe and kilim (which we do to all rugs), we can treat the fringe and dry flat with air movers or on a free standing rack overnight and in the case of thin rugs they can even be ready for pick up the same day 6-9 hours later. We get almost no call for same day pick up but occassionally one for next day.
The Great Oz
Member
David,
That's exactly the time problem. An automated system with an efficient crew can clean rugs at less than a minute each. Our typical rug wash is done in less than 6 hours with three guys, and adding ten minutes per rug for load/extraction/unload would add over 60 hours (yep, a week and a half) and a couple more guys to that process.
The guys at Deep Eddy in Austin have a compression wringer and a spin extractor. They've found that spinning heavy rugs after wringing reduces fringe browning enough to justify the extra extraction time. Heavy rugs are a lot easier to handle after the wringer and don't require as much spin time. I would suppose that as their volume grows they'll either add another spin extractor or get more choosy about how many rugs they spin.
Randy,
I've talked to more than one person that has a Turkish machine. They mention the vibration shaking the neighbor's buildings and bearings overheating so much that each larger rug has to go through a spin/cooldown/spin/cooldown cycle. I don't think that's an issue with the machines mentioned here, but I'd sure ask questions of others that have the same machine before purchasing.
That's exactly the time problem. An automated system with an efficient crew can clean rugs at less than a minute each. Our typical rug wash is done in less than 6 hours with three guys, and adding ten minutes per rug for load/extraction/unload would add over 60 hours (yep, a week and a half) and a couple more guys to that process.
The guys at Deep Eddy in Austin have a compression wringer and a spin extractor. They've found that spinning heavy rugs after wringing reduces fringe browning enough to justify the extra extraction time. Heavy rugs are a lot easier to handle after the wringer and don't require as much spin time. I would suppose that as their volume grows they'll either add another spin extractor or get more choosy about how many rugs they spin.
Randy,
I've talked to more than one person that has a Turkish machine. They mention the vibration shaking the neighbor's buildings and bearings overheating so much that each larger rug has to go through a spin/cooldown/spin/cooldown cycle. I don't think that's an issue with the machines mentioned here, but I'd sure ask questions of others that have the same machine before purchasing.
Ken Snow
RIP
ditto what ozman said. we can wash and hang 250-400 rugs a day with 3 men operating the moore washer/wringer/hanging system. adding 5-10 minutes a rug and the labor to handle them would not be practical except for possibly certain rug applications. For rugs that need it, fringe treament takes less than 2 minutes total for both ends of a 9X and less for smaller rugs and the rug is inspected as part of this as well so it is getting that additional benefit.
rhyde
Member
Ken everyone has a fringe issue now and you’re going to tell me you never have any…ever ? Also, We’re not talking thin rugs we’re talking average Orientals perhaps even thick rugs could be washed hanged and done ...possibly same day and unless there's a pre-existing fringe issue/staining there’s no fringe treatment needed spin, dry it, done , no air compressor, fringe treatments needed. I totally agree the time issue makes this illogical for large for large volume it could be usfeul solution for some situation the question is it a solution worth 40K
Bryan, Clark’s machine appears to be an American made version of a Turkish centrifuge employing the same door bearing configuration even the shock absorbers perhaps there’s something different ..truth is I don’t really know?
Bryan, Clark’s machine appears to be an American made version of a Turkish centrifuge employing the same door bearing configuration even the shock absorbers perhaps there’s something different ..truth is I don’t really know?
sweendogg
Member
I'm sorry but I think this comes down to what is clean. at 250 to 400 rugs a day, you are spending less than 2 minutes a rug. I guess if they are all repeate customers bringing them in ever 6 months than I supose you may be able to justify that process. But if you are getting rugs that haven't been cleaned in 3-6-9-12 years. Spending two minutes just doesn't seem to do that rug justice. (granted I understand that is washing only.)
But with that kinda of volume I don't doubt you are making oodles of prophet even at the lower pricing you are charging.
Ken, how many rugs would you say you end up buying in a span of a year? IE. how much money is spent to fix mistakes? And what is you general returning customer rate?
But with that kinda of volume I don't doubt you are making oodles of prophet even at the lower pricing you are charging.
Ken, how many rugs would you say you end up buying in a span of a year? IE. how much money is spent to fix mistakes? And what is you general returning customer rate?
sweendogg
Member
As for the centrifuge issue.. If they can rinse and wring as well as clark says. In theory you should be able to lay down a rug. soap and wash the front and back and blast the fringes, load that rug into your wringer for a rinse and wring cycles while you work on the next rug. For new rug plants, a centrifute at $40 K plus a wash floor seams alot cheaper than a compression wringer at $75 K plus. And good luck on trying to find a decent moore machine used. and the new flatbed rinser/wringers/washers on the market I'm sure nice but I'm guessing a heck of alot more.
Randy what do you use to extract/remove water from the rugs you are washing?
Randy what do you use to extract/remove water from the rugs you are washing?
Brian H
Member
David, uh, ....never mind. Since you have never seen our operation, you wouldn't understand and we will always be "hacks" in your mind.
The Great Oz
Member
The spin extractor is a practical tool that will increase efficiency at a certain point of rug plant volume. Once you have that volume, money spent on improving efficiency pays back quickly. If had a small plant I'd consider buying one.
As far as cleaning goes, we have and will use every method in existence depending on what we think is best for the rug. We may pre-shampoo a few before sending them into the Moore, but I know for a fact that nothing we can do will get a rug as clean as the Moore will (and in a minute!). It's why I suggested the rinse cycle for the spin extractor, "clean" pit washed rugs would spin out loads of grime, something I've also noticed at many plants with a wash floor and wringer. If you observe a rug going into the wringer of a Moore, you don't see any grime running out of it. Don't take my word for it, find the nearest automated plant and ask for a tour.
There are a few a idle Moore machines available, but they would cost quite a bit to buy, move and install. You have to be certain of your volume before making that commitment.
PS: Randy, the machines I referenced may not have been the latest models and those manufacturers may have addressed the issues. If they did it was due to competition (and maybe copying) from others.
As far as cleaning goes, we have and will use every method in existence depending on what we think is best for the rug. We may pre-shampoo a few before sending them into the Moore, but I know for a fact that nothing we can do will get a rug as clean as the Moore will (and in a minute!). It's why I suggested the rinse cycle for the spin extractor, "clean" pit washed rugs would spin out loads of grime, something I've also noticed at many plants with a wash floor and wringer. If you observe a rug going into the wringer of a Moore, you don't see any grime running out of it. Don't take my word for it, find the nearest automated plant and ask for a tour.
There are a few a idle Moore machines available, but they would cost quite a bit to buy, move and install. You have to be certain of your volume before making that commitment.
PS: Randy, the machines I referenced may not have been the latest models and those manufacturers may have addressed the issues. If they did it was due to competition (and maybe copying) from others.
sweendogg
Member
Brian H said:
I never said you were hacks.. I just can't bend my mind around that kinda of volume when I've been good to get 10 8x10's cleaned in 8 hours. I've seen lots of wash rooms and considered 40-80 rugs a day to be booking it. But even like up at K.A. Pridjian & Co, The go through shampoo the front and back, treat fringes on most rugs then run it through the flat bed moore machine.
So enlighten me. I'm only here to learn. What is your full process? I genuinely asked those questions. I know we will never be near that capacity any time in the next 10 years so help me understand an operation that big.
sweendogg
Member
The Great Oz said:
I've been at and seen several moore machines in work and would love to have the equivalent if we could justify that volume. And we do use every method needed depending on rugs and such. I guess my point was that for those who need something to speed up productions but are not at the volume to justify the rinser/ compression wringer like a moore machine, the centrifuge is that option. Otherwise there is not much that brigdes the gap in efficiency between using a truckmount/ poratable with wand/water claw on each rug to extract majority of moisture after hand washing. And a full out flat bed wringer. Drip drying a rug just isn't an option with too man potentials for problems.
Ken Snow
RIP
David if they are shampooing both sides before washing in the moore they are prob just using the machine as a wringer like many do. We have the full 16' wash bed with 2 series of wash jets (20 just in the first stage). We precondition them on the floor prior to feeding them into the 16ft wide machine. Filthy rugs take a little longer, barely soiled rugs almost no time at all and the machine does almost all the work. You would be welcome to come see our op anytime you would like.
Randy we have lots of fringe issues, I am not sure where you got the idea we didn't.
Randy we have lots of fringe issues, I am not sure where you got the idea we didn't.
sweendogg
Member
Thanks Ken! I admit I forget often the width of these machines is quite immense you can run multiple rugs at a time. At ellen's class she predominatly uses her's as a wringer rinser. How often do you have to run a rug multple times?
I appreciate the invite, I'd love to come up and see your operation when time allows it.
I appreciate the invite, I'd love to come up and see your operation when time allows it.
G
Guest
Guest
yes Ken would love to take a trip out to see your place
If I can ask you a question are you single?
If so I can bring my sister Gupta
she would love to meet you
If I can ask you a question are you single?
If so I can bring my sister Gupta
she would love to meet you
rhyde
Member
:shock: :shock: For the love of god Ken are you on the marijuana?Ken Snow said:
rhyde said:
Ken Snow said:
The Great Oz said:
its impossible to get a rug clean in a minute atleast to the levle of what i consider clean, It’s really a matter of physics & chemistry. it takes miuch longer than a minute to get a average hand woven rug completely saturated with water … ask real hand washers....any hand washers disagree?
When the rug runs out the back of the washer what measure are you using to determine that rug is clean?
The Great Oz said:
There are at least 4 centrifuge makers in turkey alone.
Ken Snow
RIP
Again Randy- you're quotes validated my statement, not refuted it. We post treat hundreds of rug fringes a week, I was only pointing out that if needed we could do it all prior to the rug drying and have it be ready the same day. We probably have this need less than once a year at most. We're a Drug Free Workplace so I am not smoking weed :-)
Ken
Ps I'm sorry you are unable to get rugs lean in a manner that allows for high production, but because you are not doesn't mean others with automated equipment cannot. I find the use of the word impossible to be a very dangerous word. Thousands of times over the course of history naysayers have used that term only to be proven wrong by poeple who did the impossible.
Ken
Ps I'm sorry you are unable to get rugs lean in a manner that allows for high production, but because you are not doesn't mean others with automated equipment cannot. I find the use of the word impossible to be a very dangerous word. Thousands of times over the course of history naysayers have used that term only to be proven wrong by poeple who did the impossible.
rhyde
Member
And modest about it too! Obviously, Ken Hagopians is a very profitable & successful operation you guys handle more rug in a week than I do in a year there isn’t anything wrong with that it's even envious who wouldnt want to be big and sucessful but thats not the issue here. Perhaps this topic should be titled what is clean, what’s the standards and measurement of clean…there isn’t really one! The same reason it’s totally impractical for you to use a centrifuge is the same reason you can’t get rug clean rugs take time to clean, one pass throuhg a dust doesnt work for many rugs, and one minute of cleaning for most is insuficent ..... I spent 8 years in a Moore wash plant I understand the capabilities and limitations.
Perhaps you or O'Haleck let me show up at your plant unannounced this fall/ winter (when it’s not so busy) with my boots squeegee, cleaning supplies and let me pull two rugs from your done bins and let me work them over my way we can photo & video the whole thing ….. I have no problems eating my words if I’m wrong!
Perhaps you or O'Haleck let me show up at your plant unannounced this fall/ winter (when it’s not so busy) with my boots squeegee, cleaning supplies and let me pull two rugs from your done bins and let me work them over my way we can photo & video the whole thing ….. I have no problems eating my words if I’m wrong!
