Indian Sandstone

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Here is a floor that I may be cleaning. Stanley Steemer cleaned it a few years back and fudged it up pretty good in some places. You can clearly see their spinner marks. The floor is a sandstone tile. It was sealed 12 years ago. It looks like it would clean up easy, but I don't want to run into any problems.

Can I scrub it?

What pressure should I use?

What chems would work best?

Does it need to be stripped? There is no wax present. Just dirt, grease, and some really old sealer.

Also what should I be charging for a job this size to clean and seal (about 600 sq ft)?

IMAG0503.jpg

IMAG0508.jpg

IMAG0504.jpg
 

bahrahm

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seams like there is acrylic sealer. if i do that floor i would remove all old sealer and use silicon base penetrating sealer(apply 2 times ) (silicon base is a lot more durable than water base).
 

stonerepair

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If it's acrylic it is a topical and you should be able to tell by it's yellow, waxy, blotchy, peeling look. If that's the case you will need to use a stripper. I don't see a topical in the pics but it's hard to tell. you can scrub it I use a carpet brush on a low rpm swing
For pressure 1200 psi works good and will not harm the stone, since it is a kitchen a degreaser will do the trick. a good impregnating sealer is what this floor needs. sandstone has large pores so a sealer with large solids is best. stonetech bulletproof is a good one and is easy to find. and apply. As far as water base goes My opinion is they work just as well as a solvent base if the floor is dry and is applied properly. Durability has nothing to do with water base or solvent base. Water or solvent is just a carrier for the solids. It's what the solids are made from that is important. Your right this will clean up easy. how you seal it will determine how well your work holds up.
Below is a copy and paste (because I'm lazy) to help you understand stone sealers a little better.
PS. Please do not put topicals on stone. The homeowner will regret it down the road and you can bet they'll remember who did it



Topical sealers
Generally made from polyurethanes or acrylics. These sealers may be effective at stopping stains but, being exposed on the surface of the material, they tend to wear out relatively quickly, especially on high-traffic areas of flooring. This type of sealer will significantly change the look and slip resistance of the surface, especially when it is wet. These sealers are not breathable i.e. do not allow the escape of water vapour and other gases, and are not effective against salt attack, such as efflorescence and spalling.

Penetrating sealers
The most penetrating sealers use siliconates, fluoro-polymers and siloxanes, which repel liquids. These sealers penetrate the surface of the stone enough to anchor the material to the surface. They are generally longer lasting than topical sealers and often do not substantially alter the look of the stone, but still can change the slip characteristics of the surface and do wear relatively quickly. Penetrating sealers often require the use of special cleaners which both clean and top up the repellent ingredient left on the stone surface. These sealers are often breathable to a certain degree, but do not penetrate deeply enough (generally less than 1mm) to be effective against salt attack, such as efflorescence and spalling.

Impregnating sealers
Uses silanes or modified silanes. These are a type of penetrating sealer, which penetrate deeply into the material, impregnating it with molecules which bond to the cappillary pores and repels water and / or oils from within the material. Some modified silane sealers impregnate deeply enough to protect against salt attack, such as efflorescence, spalling, picture framing and freeze-thaw spalling. A good depth of penetration is also essential for protection from weathering and traffic.
 

FredC

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is that first pic supposed to be spinner marks? are you sure about that?
 

Bob Foster

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They look more like rings from the bottom of a paint pail. Not the same pattern as what a turbo would do.
 

Bob Foster

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Hey Tim. Do you ever clean tile with a Whittaker or other type of counter rotating brush?
 

Mikey P

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I thought they were too small to be Spinner marks but that is a 18 to 20 inch tile, so yes most likely they are spinner etches.

The new dude says you'll be OK at 1200 psi.


OK only if you want to add more circles :shock:

Daniel, a real Stone guy could grind/hone those marks off. Do them a fave and find them one.


From the looks of the bottom right corner of the 1st pic, it does look like some Slop and Go may be on there. Any cheap floor stripper should get it off along with lots of scrubbing and low pressure rinsing.
 

FredC

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I know the tiles are large....I'd like to see the location in reference to the room.

It almost looks as if an attempt was made to "clean" them off as if they were bucket/can rings....in addition to the "perfect" shape. Also probably some sort of sealer since they are darkened.........
 

Mikey P

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Ill place my bet on Stanley Chimp creating one or two rings with his old style black spinner and then proceeding to try and remove the etching with more pressure and a different tool in that large dark spot
 

FredC

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I'm thinking you will lose based on the odds of him creating 12-14 perfect circles....no feathering....and the width of the "lines"

My bet goes to the floor being damaged by a bucket...either staining or painting leaving bucket rings....then the homeowner or contractor trying to remove the paint/stain. Mostly the larger spill as the rings may have not been as noticeable until sealer/MnG was applied..........


of course...as we all know....if the homeowner did it...it will be blamed on the most plausible scenario in which a contractor is responsible........


maybe even a pet bowl
 

Mikey P

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you do much stone Fred?


If there was a tough smallish stain right there and the SS chimp though he was going to "turbo" it out that is exactly what it would look like.


Until the floor dried you wouldn't even see the rings, most likely
 

FredC

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You know that I don't......unless you count a few years doing decorative concrete.


I have managed, however, to do some damage to some travertine cleaning up after a basement flood.....didn't look much like that.

I'm not saying its impossible that a stanley chimp did it....just that from the "sharp" rings it doesn't look like a tile tool did it
 

floorguy

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Why dont we ask daniel if he touched the marks and if he could feel "texture"...

well did ya dano, did ya touch it???



:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:




cuz yes it looks like its "more" then just spinner marks
 

FredC

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sweendogg said:
Travertine and Sandstone are two different animals.. Sandstone is much easier to impact than a travertine.. unless you are using acids.

I understand that...in fact its one of the reasons I'm doubting the damage is from a spinner...........
 

stonerepair

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Has anyone ever seen an etch that is darker than the stone? No you haven't. do you think they had an acid in their tank that would etch a stone that is mainly silaca ? or is that water will etch it? A "real stone guy" would not refinish the surface if it is not damaged. It is probably excess sealer and rings from the jug of sealer that collected dirt. clean it and run a Blue cleaner pad over it if there is any residue or etches
 

stonerepair

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Mikey P said:
The new dude says you'll be OK at 1200 psi.


OK only if you want to add more circles :shock:
if your spinner is leaving marks like that you either did not let it dwell long enough or you are moving it too fast



Bob Foster said:
Hey Tim. Do you ever clean tile with a Whittaker or other type of counter rotating brush?
No I have not. but any type of agitation will do so I never saw the need for the extra equipment
 
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Mikey P said:
I thought they were too small to be Spinner marks but that is a 18 to 20 inch tile, so yes most likely they are spinner etches.

The new dude says you'll be OK at 1200 psi.


OK only if you want to add more circles :shock:

Daniel, a real Stone guy could grind/hone those marks off. Do them a fave and find them one.


From the looks of the bottom right corner of the 1st pic, it does look like some Slop and Go may be on there. Any cheap floor stripper should get it off along with lots of scrubbing and low pressure rinsing.


I have an idea what happened. Because it only happened in two areas my thoughts are the problem was with the vacuum and not the pressure. If the brush ring gets dirty, it will create a very tight vacuum seal that can damage some floors. Yes the tiles are 24".

I guess I am a hack.

I would like to become an expert and move away from carpets for the most part.

No one addressed pricing.

Is 2 per sq ft too low? 1200 bucks to do the job seems fair.

If I scrub it with a brush, I should only need about 600 psi to rinse.
 

Mikey P

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I have no idea want services you offer Fred.

Mother nature and her floors are never 100% predictable

I've caused a ring or two in my early days.
 

XTREME1

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I would get some stripper boosted with oxy and red pad with a 175 see what reaction you get to 800 PSI if you don't see the results move up. That is not a difficult floor, you want to make sure the heat is flowing


My question for stone repair guy why the high PSI to open the pores rather than heat?


as for the mark it is either a plant or where they kept the dogs water bowl, most likely #2
 

floorguy

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danielc said:
Mikey P said:
I thought they were too small to be Spinner marks but that is a 18 to 20 inch tile, so yes most likely they are spinner etches.

The new dude says you'll be OK at 1200 psi.


OK only if you want to add more circles :shock:

Daniel, a real Stone guy could grind/hone those marks off. Do them a fave and find them one.


From the looks of the bottom right corner of the 1st pic, it does look like some Slop and Go may be on there. Any cheap floor stripper should get it off along with lots of scrubbing and low pressure rinsing.


I have an idea what happened. Because it only happened in two areas my thoughts are the problem was with the vacuum and not the pressure. If the brush ring gets dirty, it will create a very tight vacuum seal that can damage some floors. Yes the tiles are 24".

I guess I am a hack.

I would like to become an expert and move away from carpets for the most part.

No one addressed pricing.

Is 2 per sq ft too low? 1200 bucks to do the job seems fair.

If I scrub it with a brush, I should only need about 600 psi to rinse.


Think about that for just a second.....

if your filter gets dirty on your machine, does it make the wand lock down harder????
 

davendana

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IF your pressure is too high or/and you stop moving the tool that is EXACTLY what a spinner will do on sandstone and flagstone. I found out the hard way (just not multiple ones) and slightly increased pressure and moved the turbo over the circles slowly to "blend" them out. Also can happen on quartzite.
 

Mikey P

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davendana said:
IF your pressure is too high or/and you stop moving the tool that is EXACTLY what a spinner will do on sandstone and flagstone. I found out the hard way (just not multiple ones) and slightly increased pressure and moved the turbo over the circles slowly to "blend" them out. Also can happen on quartzite.[/quoteI


I concur.
 

stonerepair

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XTREME1 said:
My question for stone repair guy why the high PSI to open the pores rather than heat?
Sandstone is not a filled or polished material so there are no closed pores to open. Your not going to break the surface of sandstone with 1200 psi of water or vacuum. The pores are fairly uniform, stacked and intertwined with each other and basically all connected. You can filter water through sandstone. The pores are filled with dirt, soap and disgusting things. The object is to clean the pores as deep as possible not just the pores on the surface. if you clean the surface only the stone still will not look like it did when it was new.

When you seal you will be sealing in dirt. The rings that get left behind are from some of the deeper pores being cleaned and some not. That's why when Dave increased his pressure he was able to blend it out. The rings are not damage they are clean spots. If it were damage you could not blend it with water, You would need an abrasive to repair the surface.

Your gonna love this
Heat may make cleaning more difficult with a porous stone when dealing with grease. If your chems did not dissolve all the grease in the deeper pores, You can melt the grease making it thinner so it can get into even smaller pores and warming the stone to help it flow deeper.
 

alazo1

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Some dude would have had to put that bucket in about 10 different places on that tile. :lol:

Probably clean rings from taking out the topical. But really only Daniel would know if they are etched. Like others say, test a stripper.

Wax and sealer are pretty much the same if the sealer is topical. If the stripper takes it off you probably want to tape off the baseboards so the time would be more then a cleaning where usually taping is not necessary.

If it is a sealer then there's probably shine and that's what they probably want. Tell them that the stone is not a shiner and save yourself a bunch of trouble by trying to make it something that it's not.

Albert
 

FredC

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Albert Lazo said:
Some dude would have had to put that bucket in about 10 different places on that tile. :lol:


That isn't uncommon at all when filling something smaller/more portable...........
 

XTREME1

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I just figured with such a pourous stone that it could be easily saturated with water at such a high psi and chance of damage increased. Vacuuming and lifting soil out is very important but oversaturation could be an issue causing permanent staining etc
 

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