To make IICRC Certification more valuable and meaningful.

[harryhides]

There has been talk for some time of making most of the current classroom formats and tests available, "on-line" or computer based so that students can take the courses over a period of several days or weeks or all at once if they so choose and from their own home or office. Pass the test and attain "apprentice" status. In most courses this would replace most of if, not all of the current subject matter.

This would allow the hands-on element of the course, (very short or no test), to be taken by the "Apprentices" with an Instructor and probably at a Distibutors place, in order to attain full "Certification". The hands-on element could be very short for some courses and many days on some others like ASD, AMRT, carpet repair and for many Inspection courses.

Before getting into the details of what elements to cover in any "hands-on" element of a class ( see Jim Pemberton's thread ) what do you think of this basic concept ?

Please preface your comments with - "speaking as an owner operator" or as a "multi-trucker with many employees".

Some advantages : No travel or hotel expense, no lost revenue, take courses at times that work for you, all courses would be "generic".
When you didn't understand something you can simply replay that part. Employers don't risk their own employees learning bad habits form other attendees.

Some disadvantages: No chance to ask questions or have them answered. No chance to learn anything from other students attending until you take the hands-on part of the course..

Any other thoughts re advantages/disadvantages would be appreciated.

 

[ACE]

As an owner operator, I think the idea stinks. I think some short classwork for CEC is a good idea. The text book knowledge is only half the value of the class. The other half comes from the instructors real world experiences as an industry veteran and having the chance to talk to other companies working in the area. Without the classes I honestly would never have met some good friend in the industry. The one good thing about the idea is that it would put an end to suppliers writing IICRC training books trying to brainwash students into buying there chemicals. That’s something the IICRC could do anyways.

 

[hogjowl]

I like the idea. Am I still going to have to send my techs to Birmingham or Atlanta to be tested?

 

[harryhides]

As an owner operator, I think the idea stinks. I think some short classwork for CEC is a good idea. The text book knowledge is only half the value of the class. The other half comes from the instructors real world experiences as an industry veteran and having the chance to talk to other companies working in the area. Without the classes I honestly would never have met some good friend in the industry. The one good thing about the idea is that it would put an end to suppliers writing IICRC training books trying to brainwash students into buying there chemicals. That’s something the IICRC could do anyways.

Mike you would still all of that face to face stuff that you mentioned at the Hands-on part of the complete course.

 

[Greg Cole]

Speaking as a multi-truck operator with many contractors: Instructor based class should be made a thing of the past. Colleges did it- why wouldn't our industry? It is absurd for people to travel simply so that we fill the pockets of the instrustors for basic type training.... Just my thoughts

 

[Desk Jockey]

I like the concept we spend several thousands on training the biggest part being travel lodging. The cost of the class is often the smallest expense.

I like getting them trained and out there, attending hands on after they get a feel for what questions to ask.

It narrows the time away and gets the elementary out of the way before you're on the expense meter.

That would be great if we see that in the future!

Thanks for listening Tony!

 

[SFC]

As a single truck owner I just dropped 1200 bucks on an IICRC certifications course for Tile and Stone. Not to mention 5 days away. Too far to travel for us here in the Maritimes. Now just as a second thought, the test is a multiple guess type of deal and I have to wait for 5 weeks to even see if I passed.
The course cost $450 in Canucklebucks.
There was a lot of info that was very useful, but I could have read this and got qualified on line. It isn't rocket science.
I won't pay to take a carpet course. I don't do enough.
If the IICRC had any sense at all this would be done online and then a field test annually in each state. (or at least near enough where I don't have to drive 1000 miles to take a 3 day course.

 

[Walrus Gumboot]

Speaking as a Master Certified Textiles Cleaner who's certification is currently suspended due to lack of 2 CEC's, and motivation,I think the CEC part should at the very least be online.

I would take other courses if they were offered online,but I don't think I'll be in any more classrooms anytime soon. I absolutely HATE the group thing! And despise being made to work together on projects.

but, the food at Jon Don......

 

[Ken Snow]

Glad there is finally serious discussion about coming out of the 1970's. Online courses & testing are where it is at in almost all indrustries and education formats. grading would be instananeous as well so the old 2-4 months of waiting would be a thing of the past- though I am sure the old guard (present company excluded) & those benefiting from "the way things have always been" will fight it tooth and nail until a way to figure out how to keep their income stream intact is worked out.

 

[Desk Jockey]

Oh the waiting, gezzz the tech's hound me wanting to know their results.

It is ridiculous that it takes so long to get results. More emphasis needs to be put on getting results back quicker.

The current system is antiquated, change is needed, the dinosaur from the Fintstones that does the grading was thinking of retiring.

 

[hogjowl]

I thought you guys all took siestas after lunch and are never in a hurry for anything?

 

[Desk Jockey]

I'm always in a hurry, maybe because I'm running behind because I took a siesta? :shock:

 

[randy]

Well lets see, I can watch Harvard law courses, Yale business classes and a host of other courses over the net, many of them for free SO why not carpet cleaning. I think it is a fantastic idea (for some courses) and horrible for others. The only consistent negative to me would be the lack of face to face interaction with other cleaners. The cost to the cleaner would have to drop precipitously. I have picked up a lot of incredibly brilliant ideas from other cleaners, often that is more of a benefit than the class itself. Once a "competitor" met me at a 24 hour Home depot 2am to free up a locked blower on my Bate D-84. I was brand new in the industry, a clueless 20 something trying to make a go of it. In 5 minutes he saved me a four hour drive to the closest distributor. I met him in a class and we remained friends until he passed away a few years ago. Friendships like that don't happen over a video screen. Also I think having the classes at a distributor's place is good for their business. A instructor could go direct to the class attender and bypass the local distributor, but how will the distributors respond to that ? Probably not use that instructor at their facility anymore. If I'm correct in that uneducated guess, the entrepreneur that cracks the net based carpet cleaning school "ceiling" needs to be someone with balls & not dependent on distributor based fees for his current livelihood.

 

[joe harper]

Is it possible..to allow the curriculum to be "purchased", on-line ....prior to testing...

Then the Tech...shall set an apppointment to take the test, on-line...."another fee"...

Upon completion of the test...the "pass or fail" grade could be e-mailed with-in 24 hrs..

If the Tech..receives a passing grade.....He shall be granted a "Apprenticeship Certificate"...

A certified IICRC instructor must evaluate the Tech..with-in 1 year...."apprentise certificate"

If the Tech is deemed competent...The Tech shall receive a "Certification Certificate"




Curriculum Download......$75.00
On-Line Test Fee...........$50.00
Apprentice Certificate.....$50.00
IICRC Instructor Fee.........$75.00
Certification Certificate...$50.00

TOTAL $300.00


Curriculum Download...would have a "bar code"....To prevent sharing of Curriculum Sharing...

Any Tech that "fails written test".....May re-test for a FEE of $37.50.....

 

[sweendogg]

Speaking as a Master Certified Textiles Cleaner who's certification is currently suspended due to lack of 2 CEC's, and motivation,I think the CEC part should at the very least be online.

I would take other courses if they were offered online,but I don't think I'll be in any more classrooms anytime soon. I absolutely HATE the group thing! And despise being made to work together on projects.

but, the food at Jon Don......

Jon Don's been offering online CEC's for atleast the last 3 years.

 

[Walrus Gumboot]

well, I will certainly check into.
thanks

 

[sweendogg]

No prob,

My personal opinion with regards to the classes is kinda of like the hole rug class situation on the internet. CeC's are fine on the internet. And it keeps the pressure on to keep people educated instead of just taking a class and stopping their education there.

However, I feel that actual classes should be a physical in person attendence and not an interenet jump start. I feel that when you have to put the money AND time AND travel towards the class both as an investment for the class and instructor as well as the test fee's and lodging, you utilize that investment. Now I can understand Richards points about large companies having big cost.

But I do know that the IICRC instructors have often given classes for individual business so a company like Richards could host a class on Carpet Cleaning or a class on Restoration. If everybody can take the class at once, it has to be more cost effective to have an instructor come to your business than sending each technician one by one. Now down side is each person has to take the same class and everybody may not need a particular class. But heck even one course even every other year will keep most technicians updated with perhaps an online cec in there between classes.

Now one thing that could be done to improve amount of material covered could be to send the manual and homework before the class.. say two weeks or even a week before so that the technicians/ students are not completly deer in the headlights about the material covered. And the instructor could cover more material in the class a result.

Even having them read the sections on the 4 main fibers and the cleaning considerations of each would get people a head start. And having them review the major cleaning methods would be helpful.


Just some thoughts.

 

[harryhides]

Thanks for the comments, please keep them coming.

A couple of points -

CEC's are available "on-line" for all sorts of courses in order to keep up your certifications, right now and more are coming on stream all the time.

The face to face time, spent with an Instructor and with other students would still be a required part of getting your Certification during the "hands-on" part of the process.

Another benefit of "on-line" classes is that once you have taken a chapter say on fiber identification or chemistry in one course, you would not need to take that chapter again if it was a part of a different class.

 

[Rafa L]

is this another money scheme in the works for how long now?

who's going to profiteer the most from these changes?

It's a good idea to have online education but hope the class room setting never goes away.

Until CRI realizes that it's testing standards and the Rug Doctor is a joke and the IICRC puts more value in letting the consumer know the important of certified cleaners in relation to their floor investment by means of media, ads, etc., all these credentials will mean zip to the savvy service providers.

 

[Desk Jockey]

But I do know that the IICRC instructors have often given classes for individual business so a company like Richards could host a class on Carpet Cleaning or a class on Restoration. If everybody can take the class at once, it has to be more cost effective to have an instructor come to your business than sending each technician one by one. Now down side is each person has to take the same class and everybody may not need a particular class. But heck even one course even every other year will keep most technicians updated with perhaps an online cec in there between classes.

We have had many Instructors fly in for training (Gary Funari, Joey Pickett, Jeff Bishop, Jim Pemberton, Jim Henry, Mike West, Jeff Cutshall, Sid Lundy, Jim Holland, John Banta, Peter Sierck, Craig Fillman, Pete Consigli and others) it's nice to catch all the tech's at once, but it's still expensive.

Not just for the Instructor, his travel & lodging, but more by closing the company down for a day or two of cleaning while the tech's are in class.

If they were internet based classes, the tech's could work on it between jobs or a slow day, something that fits our schedule, still costs us, but we don't have to shut down for it.

 

[sweendogg]

Thats true.. like I said, large business like yours Richards is the exception to the monetary rule.. its difficult to make sence any way you work it... except internet based.

 

[jerry ACC]

I feel those in favor of online classes are lazy and looking for a cheap certification, and most likely do not put into practice true professional procedures.
How's about letting your Dentist or Heart Surgeon buy their PHD Online.

 

[Desk Jockey]

I disagree Jerry, the online would allow it so that the more intense training can be accomplished in the "hands on", instead of using that time for remedial training.

 

[harryhides]

I feel those in favor of online classes are lazy and looking for a cheap certification, and most likely do not put into practice true professional procedures.
How's about letting your Dentist or Heart Surgeon buy their PHD Online.

Jerry, a very bad example there. Think about it. Would you be happy to have a dentist or surgeon work on you that had ZERO hands-on experience ?

The whole point of "on-line" certification as a preliminary step to take before being allowed to attend the hands on part of the course is EXACTLY how it is done for dentists and surgeons.

Also, very important to note that with on-line classes you can play and re-play as many times as you want any portions that you did not understand. And you can still ask any questions of the instructor later during the hands-on element.
Not so easily done in the current format.

 

[roro]

As an employer I like the change in thinking.
What I would also like to see is a move to individual assessment. The current testing system is a nonsense. thathurts that only tests short term memory retention and the ability to recall instructors HINTS.

roro

 

[Ed]

I just finished AMRT. My question is WHY does it cost $150 to take the test for AMRT? It only has 150 questions. A comparable # of questions compared to all the other test which only cost $50. It is graded the same way. Why? I asked my instructor. Her answer was "because they can?" She really didn't understand why......

 

[Desk Jockey]

Ed
It's an advanced level course.

They are assuming with that level of training, you have a boat load of money (which YOU do) and can afford the shake down for the extra dough! :shock:

 

[Ed]

I'm not anywhere NEAR the Chavez financial status. They should charge you $300 for the test! Seriously, some of you IICRC big wigs, why is that? It seriously isn't the $150, but I'm not seeing the reasoning.

 

[Desk Jockey]

I seriously think that it's an upper level course and some board member said "it should be more" and the majority agreed. :x

 

[The Great Oz]

I like the idea of the typical two-day course being offered on-line, just so our beginner training isn't constrained by class schedules.

I currently use a cleaning course on disk with our techs when they are first hired, but it requires having someone with experience explain certain points. They then get some experience in the field before going to an IICRC class. The reason for sending them to the class is to give the tech similar information from another source, and be certain that nothing in the course outline is skipped. I do warn the techs that there may be some things in the course that run counter to our procedures, and if the instructor says something that sounds odd or pushes product, just make a note of it and we'll talk about it when they return from the class.

I have found that sending techs to a live course is also valuable to get a quick read on the industry. Some students take the profession seriously, which lets the tech know they also need to pay attention. Some students are slobs and skip out on the last half of the last day, which makes our techs realize there is a big difference in cleaning companies.

The on-line course would have to be developed with plenty of photos, videos and graphics to make every point clear or a trainer would still have to sit through the course with the tech. The hands-on segments would have to be done with a smaller instructor to student ratio, as I've observed most attendees to hands-on courses just watch, or talk to the guy next to them, or disappear for segments that don't hold their interest.