Ultra High lift!

FastEddie

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Seems the problem with adjusting lift higher than the factory recommended setting is over-heating the blower and causing bearing damage, etc.

Seems most have more than enough cfm's for the glide to move, but ultra high lift would be ideal.

Can you imagine being able to run your blower to an outrageous 20hg+? Sick!

The answer would be cooling the blower down by means of water injection.

I will be getting a new 47 blower and will try 20hg with water injection soon. Who is already there?
 

Mikey P

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I have run my V at 19" with two inch hose and a two TI wand with Hole Glide.

On decent Nylon Piles it's way too much work to move the wand....


I guess 20" would be good for guys who use whips and 1 1/2 wands...
 

FastEddie

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20hg's will work awesome with rotary extractors to kick a wand's ass even further than it already does.
 

FastEddie

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Maybe you should try porting out a glide to increase cfm's ATG while making it easier to push. In my opinion, glides used with monster blowers should have extra channels.

I did that to my 360 slots and caused my Kunkle not to cycle as often while decreasing dry times and less stress on the motor.
 

Larry Cobb

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Fast Eddie;

We have advocating "HIGH LIFT" for many years.

If you truly want high lift, then start with a #4MP blower instead of a #47.
Or a #5MP instead of a #59.

In any given set of parameters, it is capable of several inches more vacuum.

I have been doing a lot of testing with our new CFM meter and lift guages. What it starting to point out is the need for better silencers and heat exchangers. Minimizing the lift loss in these is the formula for increasing the actual working lift levels.

Larry Cobb
 
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I have been cleaning with 20" of lift for several years now. Yes it cleans faster, gets the carpets drier, and makes the wand harder to move. I use no whip at the wand. Our 47 blower is also water injected. 20" will take more horses to pull it.
 

Duane Oxley

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"...the need for better silencers and heat exchangers. Minimizing the lift loss in these is the formula for increasing the actual working lift levels. "

I've been adamant about this since the first system I ever built. (Using over- sized plumbing when possible, keeping it as short and straight as possible, with 90- degree turns being minimal (and sweeps, not elbows, and over- sized), if they exist at all. It's just common logic that restriction on the exhaust interferes with vacuum on the intake side... and vice- versa.

... and I remember a few years back, getting into a debate about this very thing with someone who claimed the opposite... that plumbing "only accounts for 5 to 10%..." of airflow efficiency.

The exchanger system I've designed takes ALL of that into account, by using over- sized plumbing through all of it's passageways, finally narrowing to the diameter actually required at the very end...

The thing is... With all the EPA hype going on these days regarding exhaust, and all the required testing to meet engine manufacturer's tolerances of 3 PSI or so back pressure... Why is it just now that this same logic is being applied to vacuum / exhaust portions of systems... especially heat exchange systems...
 

Duane Oxley

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... and BTW... I built systems "on the sly" for years that featured "higher than typical" lift settings. In most cases, they were over- driven blowers and higher vacuum relief settings of 16 to 17 inches. Of course, there were nay- sayers (mainly other manufacturers who promote their opposing view... different design philosophy), but the fact remains that those systems did (and do) very well.

The truth is that blowers are built with some pretty good tolerances, in terms of operational spec's. To buy one because it "features" a "Whopping" 2" more lift is, in my view, laughable...

John Nava's system, for instance, was a test (the only one like it...) I did just to see what would happen if I put NO vacuum relief on the system. Guess what...? Now, 8 or so years later, with an over- driven blower and no relief, he's still going strong and has been enjoying seriously superior vacuum since day 1. (of course, it's using a higher viscosity oil and has to be greased on schedule...)

Move over Kunkle...:eek:) No relief = no possible improvement by adding one.

But now, I'm working on a better vacuum relief as well...
 

FastEddie

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Odin,

Why don't you slam some cold ones, pop a viagra and get intimate with one of your fugly boosters.
 

Greenie

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Duane, I'll bet a dollar to a dough nut that Nava's system has one or more leaks in it to sustain that high lift no vacuum relief set up, it's just not a very large power plant to blower ratio, if it was an honest 16" or so lift, the unit would bog, especially since I'm fairly sure he ran it with no glides, lock down = engine bog with no relief.

ps: Why re-invent the wheel, a kunkle/bayco exist already and works.
 

Duane Oxley

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Hey, Greenie...

Of course there's a leak somewhere... There's no such thing as a leak proof system. But one thing for sure... there's no leak through the vacuum relief...:eek:)

Actually, a 16 Vanguard (the best Vanguard, IMO, BTW), powers a #33 very well indeed. Under a full load of 16 inches, that configuration simply "Hums", dropping about 150 RPM in the process... even with a blower over-driven @ 15%.

John's system tested out at 22", when I built it, BTW. And it did drop a bit more than the typical 150 RPM, but it didn't bog.

Keep in mind that it's rare that someone actually gets a perfect "lock" on a carpet... only approaching something like that on CGD. For standard cleaning, I doubt that he gets over 16 or 17 inches... and he doesn't do flood work.

Why make a better vacuum relief...? I like the challenge... and besides, I can do it for way under half the cost of a Kunkle, so it makes sense to me...

(And, ya know... that high lift system is a testament to the structural integrity of the recovery tank on his system, too. The guy who designed it (yours truly...) really did a good job on it...)
 
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Jason and I were there when John Nava's machine was being installed, (fall of 1999).

Awesome little setup in an Astro van that really kicked hard. I think Duane would have been best served by specializing on that ONE MODEL to fill a unique niche.

Thanks
Lee
 

Duane Oxley

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Hey, Lee...

Thanks...

The new exchanger system that I've designed is very similar to a PowerPak, actually... a PowerPak on a square tube frame, similar to the v2 design, but a lot simpler...
 

Duane Oxley

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Yes, Greenie...

It held 22" of lift. Granted, we didn't run it at that... but it did hold it at that for a few seconds, without bogging down.

My guess is that it would do it as well now, even with a motor going on 8 years old, considering internal slippage of the blower has increased over time. (There's a "hole", to be considered.)

I do NOT recommend building systems without vacuum reliefs, BTW. I'm well aware of the possibility of seal damage by exceeding manufacturer's spec's. That system was a test, with the understanding that I'd "eat" the blower, if something went wrong.

My point here is, as it always has been... that blower spec's are not "cast in concrete"... In other words, they have a "work- factor" built in. And, my personal experience, from building literally hundreds of systems with over- driven blowers, is that that safety factor is at least 15%... because that's the level that most of the systems I built operated at on a daily basis, in a wide variety of conditions.

On the other hand... the faster a blower turns, the more noise it makes. So, in 2000 to 2001, I built systems with over- sized, under- driven blowers. The logic there was that they could turn slower, but have the same CFM, AND produce less noise. It worked, but I didn't find the noise level reduced as much as expected... and, even though I announced what I did, I still felt pangs of guilt about it. One of the things people look at as a big factor in what system to buy, is what size the blower is. And an under- driven blower is simply under- performing. (If yours is (which can only be done on a belt- driven system, BTW...), you can verify it quickly, by comparing the pulley sizes of the blower and motor. If they're not the same size, and the one on the blower is larger, then it's under- driven.)

(With the Predator's, and Accelerators I dial them down to 3,200 RPM, which does keep the noise down... but the system airways are very efficient, in terms of minimal restrictions... and Predator "CP" tanks are much smaller, resulting in even better vacuum performance.... but that's another story...)

Nowadays, there's a push in heat exchange technology, to capture heat from every conceivable source... including blower exhaust. Weeeelllllll... the faster a blower turns, the more heat it generates. So, we're back to turning them faster (at least, I am, on the new exchangers).

To me, this approach is quite a bit more "honest" and straightforward than some of the things I've seen other manufacturers do. For instance, choking down the internal airways on the blower intake. This introduces airflow restriction, which makes the blower work harder, which makes it run hotter. But it also robs the end user of valuable CFM to do it. So a guy with say, a 47, 4007, or 4L blower, is only getting performance similar to the next size under that. (I've heard of one manufacturer that does it in PVC, which can't handle high temperatures... and the PVC melts. Another does it in an internal intake fitting, fabricated to smaller openings than the external piping would indicate... so that to look at the system, you'll never know it. Another does it via having what I call, "spaghetti plumbing", with lots of turns in it to introduce restriction and therefore cause heat.)

This kind of "stuff" isn't un-detectable, if you just look at your vacuum gauge. When your system is running full- out, with nothing connected to it, that gauge should read as low as possible. To me, if it reads more than 3", you need to find out why, because it's being robbed of more than 3" of the total lift it can produce... and if your vac relief is set for 15", you're losing more than 20% of it's power, before you even connect a hose to it, much less, before the wand even gets to the carpet and makes a connection with it...

Why not just design a system that takes all of this into account...? I don't get the logic in manufacturers who don't. They have more money to do the research... and more resources to put that into play. And yet... they take shortcuts...

My guess is that they're over- focused on heat (like the one I heard about that places the temperature gauge sensor close to the exhaust manifold... presumably to show higher heat levels... even though they're misleading... and the ones who jet their wands down, in order to claim higher heat levels), and not so much on true airflow.

It's not impossible to do both... A bit more involved from a design standpoint... but worth it, if you're seriously focused on vacuum performance as well as temperature.

This isn't "new" to me... If you go back to my earliest posts anywhere... on ICS or CleanFax, for example, in 1998-9, you'll find that I've said the same thing all along... that airflow efficiency is a "key" element...
 
G

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Ive missed this kind of dialog. Now maybe Bob Savage and Dale Collins can jump in and it would be just like old times. Great post Duane
 

Duane Oxley

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Fon...

Yes...

The reason is simple... Since your vacuum relief (all of them according to Kunkle aficionados ) leaks before the level it's set at... set it for a higher level.

PRESTO!!! You've just compensated for it opening / leaking... and not had to spend a couple of hundred bucks to do it...:eek:)

In truth, there's a bit more to it than that, if you're wanting to tweak your system, but that's a good place for starters...

The other thing to do, is take the relief out, clean it and clean the surface it makes contact with in order to seal, then add a gasket on the relief disk itself, if it's possible. (You can get gasket material from most hardware stores...). This would make the seal virtually leak- proof, until it opens...

Then, check the hole that the "plunger" (bolt, in most cases...) moves through as the relief opens and shuts. If it drags in any way, smooth it out. (You can bore it out a little over- sized, in order to do this simply, if need be. Just be sure to clean any burrs that occur in the process...) NOTE: Some vacuum reliefs have the disk / plunger move up and down inside of a cylinder. Most of those can not be bored out, because the disk / plunger has to remain centered... and boring it may change their critical alignment, causing the disk to rub on the sides of the cylinder walls.

Maintenance of a vacuum relief would be a good thing for a manufacturer to describe how to do...

(Hey... I just did that...:eek:)
 
G

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Ok Terry how about an explanation rather than a cheeky one liner. Enquiring minds want to know. So whats your take on all this?

Jeff
 

Duane Oxley

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I couldn't agree with you more, Terry...

The truth is, that the big push to larger components started with the development of heat exchanger systems. The reason is simple... bigger motors... bigger blowers... generate more BTU's.

So all of the talk about "free heat" of exchangers is pretty laughable, when a guy is spending $16,000 or more, to get a system with components large enough to generate enough heat for a single wand, high- heat / high flow system.

The logic is "supposed" to be that larger components last longer. Uhhhh... I don't think so... and neither do the engine representatives I've spoken with about it.

Two basic things affect engine life... lubrication and how many times the pistons move up and down inside the cylinders in a given amount of time... because they're only capable of moving up and down a limited number of times. If they move faster, that number is approached sooner and life span decreases as a result.

...but the thing is that most systems today, produce intentional strain on the blower to make it (and by association, the motor that runs it...) work harder, so that they generate more heat.

Of course, this is stuff that most end- users never become aware of, because it happens way down the road from time of purchase... just not as far down that road as they would have thought.

Okay... off 'a my soapbox...
 

Fon Johnson

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Jeff, according to Ken Harris.. A two inch hose can flow more than man can comprehend... something like 229,548,204,865,103 cfm. Now if you attach a wand and put it on the carpet (aka the wci) your cfm drops to 128.3395402 cfm.

:twisted:
 

Duane Oxley

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I can't give you exact numbers on this... It's actually variable. It's variable, because, like pressure affects flow rate, inches of lift (the inverse of pressure) affect CFM, as Larry and others have stated.

When someone says that there's a "maximum" of 220 or so CFM that you can get through a 2" hole, that says to me that they have a specific limit of inches of lift available to push it through. But not all systems are set up the same and some have more or less lift than others.

That 220 CFM (if memory serves, that was the figure tossed around some time ago...), has to be based upon a lift figure. So, let's say that the figure is 15" and that the 220 CFM figure is correct. At 16" that figure would be higher... at 17", even higher, etc.

The ultimate limit in terms of CFM through that hole, is, then, determined by the ability of force available to push it through.

I got into a discussion about this very thing several years back with a Roots representative. When I asked him the question, he said, "That's a serious can of worms there.". When I asked why, he told me what I just told you... and mentioned the fact that the actual, ultimate limit is determined by velocity of the air... Why...? Because air itself, at high speeds is an abrasive. And the material of the airways... the durability of the passageways, ultimately, imposes a limit.

The term, "sonic velocity" came up, as the ultimate limit... but even that was open to speculation... because compressibility of the fluid (in this case, theoretically, "air") affects this number... and that's based on fluid density... which is effected by temperature... and humidity...

So, the bottom line is that we can analyze this to the point of nausea. Use good principles of design and construction, and past a point, there's not enough to be gained in attempting to analyze it further... unless there is an obvious problem from the standpoint of the last time you looked...

(Seems to me that I recall the vacuum level that most vacuum hose used on truck mounts today is just over 20" Hg... like 22 to 25, at ambient temperatures of mid- to- upper 70's F. So, bumping a system to more than that, even if the blower can handle it (and some are built especially for that level and higher...), would only result in collapsed hose... So then, we'd need to look at hose design, hose diameter, etc., that would still allow for acceptable flexibility levels, etc...)
 

Fon Johnson

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The bottom line is that the cfm is in direct correlation to the carpet, the wand, technique, lift, glide, wand opening, wand diameter, etc. and so forth. There IS NO direct answer. AND this is why the hole glide works. Duane mentioned a very important aspect of air movement.. velocity. The hole glide helps maintain lift, and increase the air velocity at each hole. This increases the velocity of the air coming through the carpet. The movement is, of course, limited by the size of the holes, and THAT is why hole glides make the largest improvement of drying times when utilized with a smaller blower. The fact is that you will only get so much air through a hole glide, so using a 800 cfm blower would be pointless. The blower would pretty much so reach a max cfm at the glide (especially when on the carpet) before 800 cfm.

There are very few constants when cleaning carpet as mentioned above.. type pf carpet, wand, technique.. I seriously have thought about taking this to the University of Tennessee to the aero dept. for some testing. Even then, there would be somebody to dispute the results.. :roll:
 

harryhides

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Here's an article on the subject that I saved from years ago.

Extract to the max with air and water power, by Ron Toney
Two important concepts in the extraction of liquid from carpet or upholstery are air movement and capillary action. Understanding these principles can help you improve cleaning effectiveness; ignoring them is expensive.
Air movement is employed by the use of power to extract liquids through tools that focus areas of differential pressures. Most extraction tools have a vacuum lip in the form of a narrow rectangle. The airflow passes through the carpet directly below the lips and moves moisture into the tool. The air pressure outside the vacuum lip is greater than that inside the tool (thus creating vacuum pressure). The lip focuses the area of
differential pressure so that water is in the way of the airflow, causing the liquid to be pushed into the tool.
Carpet yarns under the lips act as a filter; thus, only small particles in suspension are drawn through the yarns. Cotton carpet yarns are soft enough to form a tight seal around the lips, holding the wand in place and making cotton carpet especially difficult to clean using hot water extraction. Because airflow is critical, continual movement of the tool is important.
Several considerations affect vacuum pressure:
• Distance between the vacuum system and the tool reduces vacuum and airflow. So cleaners should keep the vacuum hose as short as possible.

• Curves in the vacuum hose reduce vacuum and airflow. Excess hose should be placed in an "S" pattern rather than in a tight coil.

• Sharp turns increase air pressure at the bend, reducing vacuum pressure at the tool head. Gentle turns are less costly.

• Pulling water uphill is very expensive. Elevating the cleaning head over the vacuum system greatly increases efficiency.

====================================

As a side note this is one reason why we had no trouble cleaning some carpet on the 30th floor of a building - we didn't lose much water pressure and the vacuum which was weak was helped by the fact that the water laden air was travelling downhill most of the way, lol.
 

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