Where is cfm measured?

extreme steam

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I read that in the US the flow is measured at the inlet which @ -45 kpa is double the flow at the outlet. I trying to source a local blower but need to know im getting 400-500 cfm, which i assume would be 250 cfm if its calculated at the outlet, as is done here in New Zealand.

Also is there any advantages to a water ring pump instead of a lobe blower?

Can anyone help? Thanks

Pete
 

Larry Cobb

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Pete;

Assuming the vac relief is closed,

CFM is the same:

1. at the wand,

2. thru the vac hose

3. at the blower,

4. thru the silencer.

That is why all the restrictions have an effect.

Larry
 

Duane Oxley

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Pete:

It's pretty cool to see people asking questions like this, related to real- world performance and true evaluations in airflow. I hope more people do the same...

Regarding your question: Larry's right. You're not going to have more out than in, or more in than out.

It's also encouraging to see another manufacturer mentioning internal restrictions as playing a role in ultimate CFM.

Basically, what he's saying is that it's not just the "rated" airflow for a blower. It's also the restriction and back- pressure introduced by the plumbing and silencer that figure in. So, internal restrictions on both the vacuum side and the pressure (exhaust) side make a difference.

If you look at performance charts for a blower, you'll see that the airflow through a given blower changes, based upon restriction it encounters. (That's why, if someone makes a system and quotes performance at the maximum CFM available, it causes me to wonder if they really know what they're doing. Because, either they don't, or they do and are not being honest in their statements.)

The higher the restriction, the more the "lift" indicated. And the more the "lift", the less the airflow. But the flip- side is also true... The higher the pressure (i.e., back- pressure), the lower the airflow. And this, too is indicated on the charts supplied by the blower manufacturer.

I'm not sure who actually put in writing somewhere that there is a difference between the airflow in and out, but I sort of wonder if it was a joke of some kind- especially knowing Aussie and Kiwi humor to be what it is... 8)
 
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Does anyone measure CFM and water lift at the wand/carpet? At this point all the variables would be accounted for. If so, How do you do it?

John
 

Larry Cobb

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Pete;

The rotary lobe are fairly efficient and more durable than the vane pumps.

The liquid ring types can operate at higher lift, but less CFM.

I would use rotary lobe for it's durability.

Larry
 

Duane Oxley

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extreme steam said:
... it states that water ring pumps are better suited for passing liquids than rotary lobe blowers (roots type) can someone clear this up for me as both are available here, what type should i use?
Pete

Pete:

Yes, they are better at passing solids. They're very similar to centrifugal pumps. That being the case, they have "gaps" internally that can accommodate solids to an extent, by contrast to rotary lobe blowers, which have very little clearance between the lobes as they move and between the lobes and housing.

Liquid ring pumps generate more lift, and are generally connected together (i.e, more than one is used) in order to process more CFM. They're not as compact as rotary lobe blowers, and the outlets aren't as "conveniently placed" as rotary lobe blowers. So they're more difficult to plan for and require more space. They also weigh a lot more, for the CFM they move.

In reading the article you cite, I found it interesting that "liquid ring" and "vane" pumps are not the same thing and have markedly different characteristics.

Simply put, rotary lobe blowers are a lot more convenient to build with and weigh less.
 

Duane Oxley

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John LaBarbera said:
Does anyone measure CFM and water lift at the wand/carpet? At this point all the variables would be accounted for. If so, How do you do it?
John


No.

It's difficult to do and most manufacturers don't want to talk about real numbers regarding airflow, in my opinion. That would bring up a new series of questions about why the numbers are so low, compared to what blowers can actually do.

I've been saying for a while now, that when you buy a HX system, there's a very good chance that the blower is either modified to do less than it's specified to do by it's manufacturer, or it's being starved in order to create more strain on the system and generate more heat in the process.

That's why so many people today are convinced that "You have to have at least a #59 blower to run 2 wands.", etc.

Basically, when you buy a system, look at the blower and imagine it's the next size smaller than it is (possibly even smaller), because that's what it's being allowed to perform like.

Nobody wants to admit it, though...

Measuring lift at the wand head isn't difficult, really. All you'd need to do is drill a hole on the wand head, install a 1/4" half- coupling over it and screw a vacuum gauge in it.

Measuring airflow would be a lot more difficult. But I have seen an in- line CFM "gauge", that seemed to work pretty well. Dale Collins had it in 2000 in Atlanta at a MiniFest I held.

The most accurate ones, however, are held over an open port, and calculations are done to compensate for port diameter, in order to get CFM. They're not practical for in- line use.
 

Gary Bethel

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Hi Peter,
I notice that you were asking if there “are any advantages to a water ring vacuum pump instead of a lobe blower?”
Well there are more advantages in favor of a roots style lobe blower over a liquid ring vacuum pump. The one big advantage to a liquid ring is the fact they are so quiet. That is really the only advantage.
The disadvantages are: They require at least 7 liters [1.8 US gallons] of water per minute to pass through them to work. If you run them dry you cook the end plate seals. You can put in Bergman seals on each end plate and this will allow you to run for a couple of minutes with out damaging the seals, but in doing so you have to now run the pump slower, so less air flow.
They produce about half the cfm per horsepower of what a roots style blower produces. I notice in your details that you presently have in use a Allflex Liquid Ring Vacuum Pump. Those units can pull 27HG, but you will require a fairly large motor to drive it. I notice that the manufacturers who do use liquid rings push the point that their vacuum pump will do 27HG. Yet they fit only 20 hp engines to them with the vacuum relief valves set at 15HG. If they were to run them at 27HG the 20hp engine coupled to a pressure/solution pump would stall the engine.
Give you an example of another side to take into consideration the airflow. If you have the blue or red Allflex, that is the240 model, which is the most common unit used in the carpet cleaning industry. Sometimes that number is mistaken for 240cfm. The blue one is the standard seal and the red Allflex is the one with the Bergman seals. If it is run at 1750rpm it moves 196cfm. But that is with no plumbing attached to cause a restriction. If now you were to run it at 16HG it would now only be moving 104cfm. At 27HG as it is claimed to pull it is now only moving 2.7cfm.
Now you were mentioning –45kpa. That is about 13.5 hg. The Allflex at 12hg is moving 127 cfm. Not that great.
Also as no heat comes of a liquid ring exhaust you loose the opportunity to pick up extra heat from a blower exhaust heat exchanger.
On top of that remember the barrel shell of the Allflex has to be turned every now and then to stop the bottom wearing a hole through from abrasion over a period of time.

On the other hand a roots style blower with a 20 hp motor will be moving up to 270cfm when also running a pressure pump. That is a vast improvement over 127cfm of the liquid ring.

About 15 years ago in Australia and New Zealand, the big issue was roots style vacuums or liquid ring.
The argument has been convincing won in favor of roots style blowers. The carpet cleaners have voted with their wallets and we hardly see liquid ring in the carpet cleaning market place now.

Gary.
 

extreme steam

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Thanks Duane, Larry and Gary- that was exactly what i needed to hear. Although i cant help wondering if they are correct about the air velocity being faster under negative pressure. I'm thinking this.... take one cubic meter of air, and a second cubic metre of air but with the 2nd cubic metre expand, say to 2 cubic metres, it by stretching the walls and creating a vacuum atmosphere. (It still has 1 cubic metre of air but is now taking up 2 cubic metres of space. This incidently may be around -45 kpa or 13 hg. Now this is how i beleive what they have stated in that document... this negative pressure air( of roughly double volume of atmosphere is forced to move twice as fast as the atmosphere pressure air coming out the outlet). Now i have a fairly good understanding of physics and i know what i mean im just not sure that im explaining it right..

I am convinced that expanded air (air coming into a blower under pressure) has to move faster than the outlet air (at atmosphere pressure) because expanded air takes up more space than when its at atmoshere pressure. And to move more space through the same diameter it must have a faster velocity.

heres that link again that states it page 16

http://www.southland.org.nz/Portals/0/D ... Report.pdf

pete
 
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This is an interesting thread. I been watching it from the beginning and thinking about it. Correct me if I'm wrong but this is my take on it.

Vacs are rated by the vac manufacturer at maximum cfm and maximum lift. At max cfm (flow) you have 0 lift. At max lift (pressure) you have 0 CFM. So, you have to restrict the flow to create the pressure, thus tapered heads and reduced orifices. (thats why a glide works)

It's the same with a water pump. They are rated at max flow and max pressure. When jets are put in the system the flow is restricted and the pressure is increased.

So all vacs or pumps really operate or perform best in the mid range, controlled by the sizing of the orifice. (jet or glide) The ideal system is to maximize both cfm and pressure to get the most of these facets of performance in a balanced way.

Thus machine manf. like Mytee, or whoever, should rate (and measure) their product with a given length and diameter of hose with a particular wand and glide and jets. This would be great, but how would we standardize that test for a fair comparison of a competing product?


John
 

Duane Oxley

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Vacs are rated by the vac manufacturer at maximum cfm and maximum lift.

Not really. They give performance charts that state what to expect all along the range of their performance

At max cfm (flow) you have 0 lift. At max lift (pressure) you have 0 CFM.

Right

So, you have to restrict the flow to create the pressure, thus tapered heads and reduced orifices. (thats why a glide works)

Partly, at any rate. Part of the "advantage" of a glide is smooth movement across the carpet.

It's the same with a water pump. They are rated at max flow and max pressure.

They have performance curves as well.

When jets are put in the system the flow is restricted and the pressure is increased.

Yes.


So all vacs or pumps really operate or perform best in the mid range, controlled by the sizing of the orifice.

In principle, "Yes". It's not quite that simple, though, because the RPM of the pump affects it's performance, and it does better at higher RPM than in the mid- range.


The ideal system is to maximize both cfm and pressure to get the most of these facets of performance in a balanced way.

It all depends upon your definition of the word, "balanced". It's not necessarily picking a mid- point for CFM and available lift to cross each other. There's also the airflow that a wand or hose will allow. The best thing to do is have a system that consumes as little available lift as possible before hoses are connected to it. And to have it capable of moving as much airflow as the things connected to it will allow.

Thus machine manf. like Mytee, or whoever, should rate (and measure) their product with a given length and diameter of hose with a particular wand and glide and jets.

"Should" is a pretty strong word. It may be a neat idea, but too difficult to implement. For instance, especially for airflow, a hose with a curve in it will not perform as well as one that's straight. So, how do you account for that...?

This would be great, but how would we standardize that test for a fair comparison of a competing product?

That's the "can of worms", so to speak. The best thing would be to scrap the idea of hoses and attachments from a system evaluation standpoint. And focus on the system itself, with nothing attached. Get enough detail in that regard, and you'll know all you need to know, regarding it performance.
 
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Duane Oxley said:
Vacs are rated by the vac manufacturer at maximum cfm and maximum lift.

Not really. They give performance charts that state what to expect all along the range of their performance

At max cfm (flow) you have 0 lift. At max lift (pressure) you have 0 CFM.

Right

So, you have to restrict the flow to create the pressure, thus tapered heads and reduced orifices. (thats why a glide works)

Partly, at any rate. Part of the "advantage" of a glide is smooth movement across the carpet.

It's the same with a water pump. They are rated at max flow and max pressure.

They have performance curves as well.
i
When jets are put in the system the flow is restricted and the pressure is increased.

Yes.


So all vacs or pumps really operate or perform best in the mid range, controlled by the sizing of the orifice.

In principle, "Yes". It's not quite that simple, though, because the RPM of the pump affects it's performance, and it does better at higher RPM than in the mid- range.


The ideal system is to maximize both cfm and pressure to get the most of these facets of performance in a balanced way.

It all depends upon your definition of the word, "balanced". It's not necessarily picking a mid- point for CFM and available lift to cross each other. There's also the airflow that a wand or hose will allow. The best thing to do is have a system that consumes as little available lift as possible before hoses are connected to it. And to have it capable of moving as much airflow as the things connected to it will allow.

depends how you define "it". Just joking. I think we are on the same page.

John

Thus machine manf. like Mytee, or whoever, should rate (and measure) their product with a given length and diameter of hose with a particular wand and glide and jets.

"Should" is a pretty strong word. It may be a neat idea, but too difficult to implement. For instance, especially for airflow, a hose with a curve in it will not perform as well as one that's straight. So, how do you account for that...?

This would be great, but how would we standardize that test for a fair comparison of a competing product?

t all depends upon your definition of the word, "balanced". It's not necessarily picking a mid- point for CFM and available lift to cross each other.

That's the "can of worms", so to speak. The best thing would be to scrap the idea of hoses and attachments from a system evaluation standpoint. And focus on the system itself, with nothing attached. Get enough detail in that regard, and you'll know all you need to know, regarding it performance.

Hi Duane,

I think what you said is what I said. Except I wasn't talking about the "advantages" of a glide, but instead its affect on CFM and water lift.

Yes". It's not quite that simple, though, because the RPM of the pump affects it's performance, and it does better at higher RPM than in the mid- range

I agree that RPM can affect the flow and the pressure, so does HP. I wasn't trying to over simplify, just that a pump has a max pressure and a max CFM but does not in reality, operate at those extremes, instead some where in between.

Should" is a pretty strong word. It may be a neat idea, but too difficult to implement. For instance, especially for airflow, a hose with a curve in it will not perform as well as one that's straight. So, how do you account for that...?

I agree with you, I wasn't suggesting that, I was raising the question that it would be impractical for the obvious variations.
 

Duane Oxley

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John LaBarbera said:
Hi Duane,

I think what you said is what I said. Except I wasn't talking about the "advantages" of a glide, but instead its affect on CFM and water lift.

I agree that RPM can affect the flow and the pressure, so does HP. I wasn't trying to over simplify, just that a pump has a max pressure and a max CFM but does not in reality, operate at those extremes, instead some where in between.

I agree with you, I wasn't suggesting that, I was raising the question that it would be impractical for the obvious variations.

Okay. Sorry, I missed that, regarding the first paragraph in the quote above. You're right.

Agreed on the point of paragraph 2.

Agreed again on the last point.

Personally, I'd love to see some kind of standardization of performance claims. I've said several times over the years that this reminds me of the hi fi industry and the wild claims years ago on amplifier output.

Manufacturers were claiming all sorts of things in terms of what their systems would deliver, with no real basis for evaluation. "100 Watts" could mean anything from 100 watts total for 2 channels, to 100 per channel, with distortion rates from .001% (from high- end manufacturers) all the way to 10% or more (for "price point" manufacturers). And of course, as distortion was higher, sound became less and less, "meaningful".

Back then, I sold hi fi systems-i everything from low end "Realistic" (when I was at Radio Shack), to Marantz and Yamaha (at an independent store), and got to see the reality of it all first- hand.

Finally, a standard was set that basically said that the power listed had to be per channel, with a stated level of distortion at the stated maximum output. That was the beginning of "truth in advertising" in that industry.

We need something similar in ours, IMO.

Duane
 

extreme steam

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extreme steam said:
Thanks Duane, Larry and Gary- that was exactly what i needed to hear. Although i cant help wondering if they are correct about the air velocity being faster under negative pressure. I'm thinking this.... take one cubic meter of air, and a second cubic metre of air but with the 2nd cubic metre expand, say to 2 cubic metres, it by stretching the walls and creating a vacuum atmosphere. (It still has 1 cubic metre of air but is now taking up 2 cubic metres of space. This incidently may be around -45 kpa or 13 hg. Now this is how i beleive what they have stated in that document... this negative pressure air( of roughly double volume of atmosphere is forced to move twice as fast as the atmosphere pressure air coming out the outlet). Now i have a fairly good understanding of physics and i know what i mean im just not sure that im explaining it right..

I am convinced that expanded air (air coming into a blower under pressure) has to move faster than the outlet air (at atmosphere pressure) because expanded air takes up more space than when its at atmoshere pressure. And to move more space through the same diameter it must have a faster velocity.

heres that link again that states it page 16

http://www.southland.org.nz/Portals/0/D ... Report.pdf

pete

Can someone please say ''That kinda makes sense" or even "look pal i think your just tweakin a wee bit, maybe too much solvent fumes"

Pete
 
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Hi Pete,

My first thought on this is that it doesn't make sense but I'm not the last word on it. Here's how I reason: The air from a blower is hot but it is being discharged to atmosphere so if it is expanded (which it may be) makes no difference. the blower is sucking air thru a vacuum tank from atmosphere so like Larry and Duane said (if I got it right) is what goes in come out at the same speed and volume since the volume is controlled by the vacuum glide or head, or what have you.

Don't be discouraged I'm probably wrong.

John
 

Duane Oxley

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extreme steam said:
I am convinced that expanded air (air coming into a blower under pressure) has to move faster than the outlet air (at atmosphere pressure) because expanded air takes up more space than when its at atmoshere pressure. And to move more space through the same diameter it must have a faster velocity.

Pete:

I'm getting into unknown territory here, that I haven't done a study of or much reading about. So, I can't be definitive in my answer. But in general, I suspect the opposite of what you're saying. The reason is that no airflow is "lost" as it passes through the blower. In other words, no amount of it "disappears". That being the case, you'll have the same in as out.

But, as noted, when it's hotter, it expands. So, the "amount" coming out could conceivably be "more", due to thermal expansion.

At least, that's logical, the way I see it.

But as I said, I haven't studied that aspect of airflow. Maybe the author has and has more familiarity with it as a result. It seems that it's possible.

But logically, it doesn't add up, from where I sit at the moment.
 

Greenie

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Doesn't much matter, the industry has moved on past liquid ring, so look at todays tech and decide for your self.
 

extreme steam

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Greenie my last question was to do with all vacuum pumps, as i do realize that roots style blowers are used almost exclusively in cc. An article i quoted says that in usa cfm is measured at the intake to the vacuum, but in New Zealand it is measured at the outlet and that makes it confusing to compare blowers here. They say because the intake is under negative pressure the air is expanded and taking up to double the space (and therefore double the airflow) than the outlet that returns to atmosphere pressure which is not expanded and takes up half the space( therefore half the cfm)

I can see the theory in that, but no one else seems to of heard this before.

Pete
 

Greenie

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Pete, I don't know what in the hell "they" are talking about, 300 cfm IN = 300 cfm OUT, there is no event horizon in a PD blower.
Hearing such junk science conjurs visions of worm strings and time manipulation......it's just airflow and it's just carpet cleaning.
 

Clark

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All kind of things change for you guys because you introducing moisture to the air. Moisture makes the air heavy. The velocity is what keeps the heavy air moving and the heavy particles in suspension (soil). So you never know what the CFM is because it changes. You just have to have more than you need. ACFM - Actual Cubic Feet per Minute.

When pressure is applied a volume of air - it gets smaller. When vacuum is applied to a volume of air - it expand. Actual air volume flow is often termed ACFM - Actual Cubic Feet per Minute.

Actual Cubic Feet per Minute - ACFM, depends on the pressure, temperature, humidity of the actual air.
The conversion from SCFM to ACFM is ACFM = SCFM [Pstd / (Pact - Psat ?)](Tact / Tstd) (1)

ACFM = Actual Cubic Feet per Minute

SCFM = Standard Cubic Feet per Minute

Pstd = Standard absolute air pressure (psia)

Pact = absolute pressure at the actual level (psia)

Psat = Saturation pressure at the actual temperature (psi)

? = Actual relative humidity

Tact = Actual ambient air temperature

Tstd = Standard temperature

SCFM

Standard absolute air pressure (psia)

Actual absolute air pressure (psia)

Saturation pressure at the actual temperature (psia)

Actual relative humidity

Actual ambient air temperature

Standard air temperature

You need to allow for temperature and pressure changes.
Example - SCFM to ACFM
The actual CFM of a Blower operating at "non-standard" conditions like elevation 5000 feet (1500 m) - atmospheric pressure Pact = 12.23 psia
temperature 80oF - absolute temperature Tact = 540oR
saturation pressure Psat = 0.5069 psia
relative humidity ? = 80%
demand 100 SCFM
You calculate it by ACFM = 100 [14.7 (psia)/ (12.23 (psia) - 0.5069 (psia) 0.80)](540 (oR) / 520 (oR)) = 129.1

ICFM - Inlet Cubic Feet per Minute
Inlet Cubic Feet per Minute - ICFM, is used by blower people to establish conditions in front of additional equipment like inlet filter, blower or booster.

When air passes through anything there will be a pressure drop. The conversion from ICFM to ACFM can be expressed as ACFM = ICFM (Pact / Pf) (Tf / Tact) (1)

ICFM = Inlet Cubic Feet per Minute

Pf = Pressure after filter or inlet equipment (psia)

Tf = Temperature after filter or inlet equipment

Well, this is all you need to calculate CFM. But if its sucking leave it alone.
 

John Watson

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You guys, Please take note, Clark, said that with his southern accent, Prollywhy I didn't understand it. Kinda have a hard time understanding Pete too..

I concur with what Greenie said.."it's just carpet cleaning."
 
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Hi Pete,

Visualizing the flow path could help. It actually starts at the glide, thru the wand, down the hose, to the vac tank, then the blower. (where the air is heated and exhausted to atmosphere) At this point the vac has done its job so if the CFM has expanded, it really doesn't matter.

John
 

Jim Bethel

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roro said:
Greenie said:
Doesn't much matter, the industry has moved on past liquid ring, so look at todays tech and decide for your self.
Some haven't and as they are still in business they must be doing something right.

http://www.truckmount.com.au/TM24.htm
http://www.maxi-steam.com.au/

roro

Roro,

Both of these business have other divisions to their business which makes the liquid ring TM manufacturing a very small part of their business. Along with companies like Merzo and Aussie Red (both also utilized liquid rings) who also fell by the wayside, I agree with Greenie. The industry has moved past liquid rings. Excluding these two very small Aussie companies, how many international based cleaning manufacturers utilize this older technology? None in the mainstream that I can think of. Whilst liquid rings were good in their day (and there is plenty still in use both in NZ and Aus), PD blowers will produce a significant amount more CFM and that is why they are the preferred choice for most.

Jim
 

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