45 vs 47 blower

[Larry Cobb]

Gear diameter has nothing to do with power differences.

Gear diameter determines the MAX power thru the blower.

If the #47 moves more CFM . . .

then the #45 will absolutely . . .

have more lift.

Larry

 

[FB19087]

Thanks for the graph Larry. Can you explain why these numbers would seem to contradict your results?

View attachment 3307

View attachment 3308

 

[Larry Cobb]

Sure;

those graphs were from 2004 or 9 years ago.

The #45 does show higher lift 16" vs 15".

My current Sutorbilt factory data shows 2" hg. higher for the #45 blower (16" vs 14").

(and that is where we set it for the TM testing)

Actually, Silencer & plumbing back pressure should also be subtracted from the max vac levels.

I think there was some relaxing of the data, due to manufacturers asking for higher intermittent vac levels.

Larry

 

[FB19087]

Oh...I see...the graphs are old. Can you upload your current Sutorbilt factory data.

Actually, Silencer & plumbing back pressure should also be subtracted from the max vac levels.

So we can assume you accounted for all these factors? Exact same truckmount just different blowers?

 

[Larry Cobb]

Oh...I see...the graphs are old. Can you upload your current Sutorbilt factory data.

So we can assume you accounted for all these factors? Exact same truckmount just different blowers?

All the TM's were built by the same manufacturer.

Let's assume that the silencers on both the #45 and the #47 were the same (I did look at both of them).

Which system would have the greater back pressure ?

I would think the #47 pumping more CFM thru what appeared to be the same silencer . . .

would have MORE backpressure (~40% more).

So, I should have set the #47 max. vac level even lower.

Larry

P.S. My factory data sheets are on graph paper.
I'll see if they have them online.

 

[FB19087]

any chance a Nerf football was stuck in the vacuum relief valve on the 47 unit?

 

[SamIam]

Does a 45 blower have 2.5 inch opening and usually plumbed at 2.5 inches???

And 47 blowers around 4 inches or like my 405 3.5 inches !

So where a 47 blower shines is Cfm and 2,5 inch hose 4 to the door or doing carpet and upholstery at the same time.

Are we to believe also a. 45 blower will out perform a 4:10 blower to???

 

[Shawn Forsythe]

any chance a Nerf football was stuck in the vacuum relief valve on the 47 unit?

Nerf was just for show. Actual production and test units use a synthetic leather shown to be more chemically and UV resistant.

 

[Jay D]

Jon, heres a answer to your question. your 47 running at max rpms is better for dual wanding large commercial jobs and can do residential too. The 2545 for employees single wanding apartments, businesses and houses will be a great machine for the intended purpose. I have had a 3047 machine and being a 1 man company I only used it to dual wand a couple times and it worked fine for that but was more than I needed. I sold it and I bought a 2045 machine and it ended up being a great single wand machine for me. The major difference is the CFM between the 2 blowers when the wand is off the carpet. The 47 won on that account. But with the wand on the carpet the cfm is a mute point and hg/lift is the king to get carpet dry. You will not lose any quality of work by going with the 45 machine. Single wanding the 45 will be just fine, If your looking for a dual wand machine then another like you already have is the way to go. The 25hp kohler will also burn less gas than the 34hp kohler. my 30 would burn about 2 gallons a hour vs 1.4 gallons on the 20hp. hope i didnt muddy the water too much for you.

 

[juniorc82]

Jon, heres a answer to your question. your 47 running at max rpms is better for dual wanding large commercial jobs and can do residential too. The 2545 for employees single wanding apartments, businesses and houses will be a great machine for the intended purpose. I have had a 3047 machine and being a 1 man company I only used it to dual wand a couple times and it worked fine for that but was more than I needed. I sold it and I bought a 2045 machine and it ended up being a great single wand machine for me. The major difference is the CFM between the 2 blowers when the wand is off the carpet. The 47 won on that account. But with the wand on the carpet the cfm is a mute point and hg/lift is the king to get carpet dry. You will not lose any quality of work by going with the 45 machine. Single wanding the 45 will be just fine, If your looking for a dual wand machine then another like you already have is the way to go. The 25hp kohler will also burn less gas than the 34hp kohler. my 30 would burn about 2 gallons a hour vs 1.4 gallons on the 20hp. hope i didnt muddy the water too much for you.

jay finally thank you for amsweromg ,y question. I have also heard someone on here say several times that they believe the 45 blower unit is the perfect single wand machine

 

[bob vawter]

45's are 2 1/2" and 47's are 3"

if someone were smart...
they'd buy brents 47 and let
me build a nice shaft drive around it..........

 

[Larry Cobb]

Here is the Sutorbilt factory data:

http://www.airmac.com/pdfs/bv_gd_sutorbilt2.pdf#page=9&zoom=125,0,676

Max. for 4LR (#47) is 14"

Max. for 4MR (#45) is 16"

Larry

 

[GCCLee]

45's are 2 1/2" and 47's are 3"

if someone were smart...
they'd buy brents 47 and let
me build a nice shaft drive around it..........

That would make someone smart Bawb.
Get real : )

 

[bob vawter]

i have THREE steam genie driveshafts in the corner of my shop left..
someone that HAD a Genie would be smart ta buy them from me.

 

[Lee Stockwell]

Here is the Sutorbilt factory data:

http://www.airmac.com/pdfs/bv_gd_sutorbilt2.pdf#page=9&zoom=125,0,676

Max. for 4LR (#47) is 14"

Max. for 4MR (#45) is 16"

Larry

It's not debated that the narrower blowers in each size group can be set at a higher lift. However if lift alone were the goal our industry would use vane pumps to run at 22Hg or so.

We don't.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Larry Cobb]

It's not debated that the narrower blowers in each size group can be set at a higher lift. However if lift alone were the goal our industry would use vane pumps to run at 22Hg or so.

We don't.

TM's still require ~ 200 CFM to maintain the lift on a 14" wand.

With the 14" wand, the #45 developed 73% more lift . . .

than the #33 set @ 16" also.

Larry

 

[tngvegas]

Jon, it is hard to compare tm's because they are designed differently from the start. some machines are choked down for more heat, some are run slower to last longer, etc. Prochem used the 47 blower on its 405 machine to reduce noise while at the same time being a marketing angle. If you want a good single wand machine a 2545 would fit the bill nicely. here are some things to think about:

an air-cooled engine needs to run at high rpm's to cool itself. get a oil cooler and use synthetic to help the engine. A 45 blower is 2.5 inches in and out so it works great with 2.5 inch hose and if running the blower at 85 % of max. rpm's will probably do a 300 foot hose run very well. if you have a 150 foot hose run you can always run two lengths of 2 inch hose to help bring the vacuum closer to the wand. A well made vac relief spring is important to hold the higher lift needed for long hose runs. Are you concerned with blower noise? if so talk to Les Jones about the blower silencer he uses. what is your need for hot water, and do you like high flow? the smaller machine will usually provide less hot water than a bigger machine. but you can always add a propane or diesel heater to make up for that.

Make sure to talk to the TM builders to get a sense of why they designed the machine the way they did. Duane Oaxley seems to specialize in building machines with 36 and 45 blowers. He is very easy to talk to. I think won of the most over looked aspects of cleaning is which wand is being used. that wand is the only connection between the carpet and the tm. A cheap wand can close down under high lift and not extract as well as it would at lower lift levels. there is a reason why lots of cleaners here use a Prochem wand and not a less expensive one made in china.

Hope this helps you alittle. a TM is really a system that has parts designed to work together and looking at just one part doesnt always give you the whole story.

 

[Dolly Llama]

Thanks for the graph Larry. Can you explain why these numbers would seem to contradict your results?

This Larry can

It's simply because no one runs their 47 blower at 3600rmp.
Most run 47 in the 1800-2600max rmp

and in poor Chris's case who has been brainwashed by Bob (Bobwashed) , his 47 is only spinning at 1600 rpm


..L.T.A.

 

[Dolly Llama]

I have also heard someone on here say several times that they believe the 45 blower unit is the perfect single wand machine

I'm one of 'em
Not that a 47 doesn't have plenty virtue single wanding as well
It allows slower RPM (less noise) and same performance

as I mentioned in the post above, no manufactures I know of run 47's near their capacity.
2600 is about tops from what I've seen , where many (most?) of the 45's are cranking 3000+


..L.T.A.

 

[juniorc82]

I'm one of 'em
Not that a 47 doesn't have plenty virtue single wanding as well
It allows slower RPM (less noise) and same performance

as I mentioned in the post above, no manufactures I know of run 47's near their capacity.
2600 is about tops from what I've seen , where many (most?) of the 45's are cranking 3000+


..L.T.A.

On my ** truckmount it I run mine at like 3400.

 

[Dolly Llama]

On my ** truckmount it I run mine at like 3400.

you're spinning a 47 @ 3400 on your Nick-o-Matic??
bet a nickle you have troubles in less than 2000 hours in the drive line and/or blower


..L.T.A.

 

[Mikey P]

Coupler or belt Jon?

 

[FB19087]

I'm one of 'em
Not that a 47 doesn't have plenty virtue single wanding as well
It allows slower RPM (less noise) and same performance

as I mentioned in the post above, no manufactures I know of run 47's near their capacity.
2600 is about tops from what I've seen , where many (most?) of the 45's are cranking 3000+


..L.T.A.

That is because a 47 requires 5 more hp than a 45 to spin at any useful rpm. The 45 doesn't develop 15-16" until a much higher RPM. At 2620rpm the 47 blower is already developing 14" and more cfm than the 45 is capable of......

BUT I have seen what I think is a 39hp 47 blower (direct coupled) option built by Nick...so the power is available...but I still think Larry is FOS

 

[Larry Cobb]

Fred;

The #4MR (#45) blowers we use, can generate 16" or 17" at 2600 RPM.

The only reason it is not shown on the chart, is due to heat rise for continuous output.

Maximums are set due to temperature limits in the blowers.

The MR series isolates heat from the gearbox, which enables higher vac levels.

When you run a new #47 above those limits in a confined TM enclosure . . .

you are shortening the life of the blower.

As an owner, of course you can operate wherever,

but be aware of the over temperature effects.

Gardner-Denver and other mfgs are at most of the trade shows.

Conversation with factory reps would put some of these questions to rest.

Larry

 

[GCCLee]

This Larry can

It's simply because no one runs their 47 blower at 3600rmp.
Most run 47 in the 1800-2600max rmp

and in poor Chris's case who has been brainwashed by Bob (Bobwashed) , his 47 is only spinning at 1600 rpm


..L.T.A.

12 i never flip it into high : ) jk

 

[FB19087]

so would you run 16" at 2620rpm Larry?

a 47 will also develop 16" of lift by the same logic.

and what were the lift numbers? according to Nick:

If you set a machine at 15 inches you are going to get 15 inches . Having said that here is what i discovered at my BBQ then at Duanes place in Atlanta. a machine with a 36 or 45 blower set at 15 hg at the machine will get at 100 feet at the carpet 12 inches of lift .

a 47 ,56,59,68 blower set at 15 inches of lift at the machine will get 14.5 to 14.9 inches of lift at the carpet.

So..according to the manufacturer of the truckmounts you tested smaller blowers don't maintain lift through the hose run as well as larger blowers. This would seem to negate the additional 2" you are crediting with the performance advantage. That means the 47 would actually maintain a higher lift AND have an increased CFM.

but thats only if you can trust the results of backyard BBQ testing and the interpretations....maybe they were using old graphs......

 

[ruff]

Not an answer to your original question Jon, however....
Most companies that have employees, choose a PTO for their simplicity to operate. Also their employees much prefer the pto's. These days you can get them with both plenty of heat and suction.
Did you consider going that way?

And I don't think that the increase in either suction and heat is what's going to make your employees achieve better cleaning results. The results will have much more to do with their training, accountability and pride of workmanship. But that's a whole new subject.

 

[Larry Cobb]

Not an answer to your original question Jon, however....
Most companies that have employees, choose a PTO for their simplicity to operate. Also their employees much prefer the pto's. These days you can get them with both plenty of heat and suction.
Did you consider going that way?

PTO's with electric clutches . . .

are limited by the power capabilities of the electic clutches. (usually ~12-15 HP depending on RPM)

These cannot drive #45 & #47 to their full operating capabilities.

Shaft drive PTO's are capable.

Larry

 

[ruff]

At the risk of repeating myself, Larry :

"Most companies that have employees, choose a PTO for their simplicity to operate. Also their employees much prefer the pto's. These days you can get them with both plenty of heat and suction.
Did Jon consider going that way?"

and now back to the fascinating discussion regarding 45" versus 47". Which by the way, and not that it is that difficult to accomplish, goes way above my measly head.
See, my problem is that every new post and argument sounds totally plausible to me. Therefore I have no choice but to agree with the last post.

 

[GCCLee]

PTO's with electric clutches . . .

are limited by the power capabilities of the electic clutches. (usually ~12-15 HP depending on RPM)

These cannot drive #45 & #47 to their full operating capabilities.

Shaft drive PTO's are capable.

Larry

Mine has both, now what?

Electric Clutch engages the shaft which turns the blower.

Jus sayin ; )