Dynachem Hybrid TM

Do you see a Hybrid TM in your future ?

  • YES , ASAP

    Votes: 2 7.7%
  • No

    Votes: 22 84.6%
  • Within the next couple of years

    Votes: 2 7.7%

  • Total voters
    26

Larry Cobb

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Build photo of a new Dynachem Electric TM.
Motor and blower only in this photo.
15 HP 3-Phase Electric Motor driving #4MR Blower to full output.
Electronic drive to operate off of Hybrid Van battery.

HybridTM.jpg


Now, you have seen the future . . .
 

Larry Cobb

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Long belt run, with plenty of room for a tensioner.

Electric motors are less pulsations on belts to start with.

Long belt life with no fan cooling thru frame members required. :icon_rolleyes:
 
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dgardner

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No disrespect meant, but it's easy to set a motor and blower on a piece of aluminum. The drive electronics and vehicle interface are the whole project basically. Are you designing a custom interface to the vehicle's battery pack (unlikely) or relying on a vehicle-supplied utility-grade power module, like the Via: http://www.viamotors.com/vehicles/electric-van/and using an off-the-shelf VFD to drive the motor?

Either way, the problem I see is capacity. Your 15hp motor will require about 14kW. The vehicles I am aware of have battery packs somewhere between 15kWh and 25kWh - that gives you only 1-2 hours electric-only runtime, and that's if you drive in hybrid mode (engine running) and don't use the battery while driving. That means you will end up running your setup in hybrid mode pretty early in the day - engine running generator running electric motor - the very thing ETM guys get ribbed for doing. Have you found a van with a honkin' big battery pack?

If you really do have an electronics package ready to go let's see some pics - that's the interesting part!

Edit:
Oh yeah I forgot - the vehicle battery packs are rated for a certain number of charge-discharge cycles. With your system doubling or tripling (perhaps) the number of cycles per month how will the manufacturers react when you try to warranty the (extremely expensive) battery? Food for thought....
 

Larry Cobb

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I have been driving a hybrid vehicle thru a couple of battery packs cycles.

The battery packs are expensive, but overall I see battery costs as less than gasoline motor costs.

Via vans are one good solution to the power requirements. We have talked to them previously.
With 23KWH, they can run a couple of hours on battery power alone.
Operating costs are less than 50% of a gasoline only van per Via.
Other Van manufacturers are compelled by MPG requirements to develop hybrid solutions.
No different than any PTO solution with the van running.
 
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Dolly Llama

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engine running generator running electric motor - the very thing ETM guys get ribbed for doing.

No different than any PTO solution with the van running.

how is it a better mousetrap??
Don't get me wrong, I love the concept, and it's great to see peeps working on development , but with some of a bigazz slide-ins now getting fuel consumption near 1 gph
(didn't Gene say he's only using 1.25 gph for a bigazz 870??)..that can dual wand, bringing costs to less than .75 gph

so fuel savings will have to be quite substantial to compete when considering battery replacement and wear/tear on a running van engine

i know nothing about hybrid vehicle systems, i know a little about battery powered industrial equipment (fork lifts) that would run all shift on a battery.
if/when technology gets the size and weight down of the those batteries, that's when the future will happen ...cause who wouldn't want to get a dirty internal combustion engine out of the back of the van in favor of a clean/quite electric motor ...but the batteries now that would work, are big as TM and heavier to boot


..L.T.A.
 
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dgardner

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So it's a pto without the clutch, belt and bearings to maintain (Marty will want one). That's a bit of a benefit right there.

But at least the clutch pto drives the blower more or less directly, with little loss save belt slip. The hybrid solution will have a triple whammy - conversion losses generating the electricity, conversion losses in the inverter, and an electric motor that is less than 100% efficient itself (the best ones are around 90%).

That will drive up your fuel consumption over a slide-in and pto both I fear.....
 

GeneMiller

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how is it a better mousetrap??
Don't get me wrong, I love the concept, and it's great to see peeps working on development , but with some of a bigazz slide-ins now getting fuel consumption near 1 gph
(didn't Gene say he's only using 1.25 gph for a bigazz 870??)..that can dual wand, bringing costs to less than .75 gph

so fuel savings will have to be quite substantial to compete when considering battery replacement and wear/tear on a running van engine

i know nothing about hybrid vehicle systems, i know a little about battery powered industrial equipment (fork lifts) that would run all shift on a battery.
if/when technology gets the size and weight down of the those batteries, that's when the future will happen ...cause who wouldn't want to get a dirty internal combustion engine out of the back of the van in favor of a clean/quite electric motor ...but the batteries now that would work, are big as TM and heavier to boot


..L.T.A.
Larry my 870 has leveled out at 1.59. That's still pretty good considering I was burning that with a 20 hp Briggs. It was only turning a number 4 blower. I had propane for heat and that adds another .5 gal an hr. My lifetime for the thermal wave was 1.21-1.23. That's running almost exclusively on dual.

Gene
 
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been working on all electric DC for 8+ years with a roots 36. Someone with real money to build a cost/effective battery/s with a half a days run time might have a shot at marketing something. However, that system will cost an arm and a leg compared to what we have right now with engine driven machines. I'd release what I have right now but who's gonna drive around with 1,200lbs of lead acid batteries and take on a new role of battery management technician? Not the carpet cleaners I've ever met.
 

Bob Savage

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Electric truckmounts are a difficult sell, because cleaners want a BIG blower, and high heat. Even though a smaller blower will still do the job right if the system is designed properly, they must have that bigger blower.

Someday maybe, electricity will be able to supply that kind of power, but not yet.

The TM we are using does all a truckmount needs to be, which includes running dual wands, extreme heat when necessary, reliable APO, no proprietary parts, and an extreme high production setup.

Larry, why 3 phase, and where are you going to get 3 phase for that motor without using a phase converter?
 
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Zee

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.
Electric truckmounts are a difficult sell, because cleaners want a BIG blower, and high heat. Even though a smaller blower will still do the job right if the system is designed properly, they must have that bigger blower.

Someday maybe, electricity will be able to supply that kind of power, but not yet.

The TM we are using does all a truckmount needs to be, which includes running dual wands, extreme heat when necessary, reliable APO, no proprietary parts, and an extreme high production setup.

Larry, why 3 phase, and where are you going to get 3 phase for that motor without using a phase converter?



So when are we getting that complete walk through video of your magical setup?
 
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Larry Cobb

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So it's a pto without the clutch, belt and bearings to maintain (Marty will want one). That's a bit of a benefit right there.

But at least the clutch pto drives the blower more or less directly, with little loss save belt slip. The hybrid solution will have a triple whammy - conversion losses generating the electricity, conversion losses in the inverter, and an electric motor that is less than 100% efficient itself (the best ones are around 90%).
That will drive up your fuel consumption over a slide-in and pto both I fear.....

Hybrids have an alternator, electronics and motor . . .
and still have far greater efficiency compared to a gas engine vehicle.

The 3-phase hi-efficiency motor we are using has efficiency over 91%.

New lithium battery packs are 30 kwh and up with increasing cycle lifetimes.

"Tesla has just announced that it will sell a battery pack for home use that will cost approximately $3500 for 10 kwh of power." Estimated cost for just the battery is about 50% of the package.

Lithium battery prices are continually falling : "Those numbers tie neatly to estimates by clean-tech market intelligence firm Pike Research--contained in Electric Vehicle Batteries, a very pricey report--that the installed cost of lithium-ion batteries will fall by more than one-third by the end of 2017."

Tesla is building a huge lithium battery factory in Nevada ,
with the goal of slashing the prices for lithium batteries.
 
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Bob Savage

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So when are we getting that complete walk through video of your magical setup?
As soon as I can get a third person to go along so someone can shoot the video while 2 are cleaning.

I know none of you actually believe me when I say what I've got, cause no one else has been able to accomplish this kind of power using a #45 blower, so how could I possibly do it. No, it's not magic. It's simple and works great!
 

Dolly Llama

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Electric truckmounts are a difficult sell, because cleaners want a BIG blower, and high heat. they must have that bigger blower.

you can try to convince yourself of that, Bob , but unless you consider a 45 a "BIG" blower , we'll have to disagree

To make lectromounts competitive in the market place there are some hurdles that must be overcome .

equal performance of a 45 blower @ 3000 rpm and 15HG

eliminate the need to get into Mrs Phiff's laundry rm to unplug her drier

Eliminate the need to find separate 20a circuits and then stretching a couple/three 100ft long 10ga cords
(while reminding Mrs Phiff not to use her blow drier, washing machine or blender while fridge compressor is running)


and you'll still blow breakers in many homes

Eliminate the PITA factor of all of the above WITHOUT using a generator the size of most 36 blower gas TMs (sans waste tank)
and they'll sell like hotcakes

the first lectromount maker to do all that while adding an "adequate" heat source that doesn't require secondary fuel like propane or kero, and they'll dominate the TM market in a few short years..
Make it affordable/competitively priced and the single wand gas TM will become obsolete

.L.T.A.
 
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tubad sosad

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the future is deisel. if you want a direct drive then get a diesel van with a pro1200 or similar. just think how long that could last if taken care of. or spend alittle more for an AT that will last a long time and available now.

some guys will always be alone or with a helper and don't need a dueal wand TM. what they do want is reliablity, easy to maintain, and easy to operate. a DD does give you more space in back but it makes the van run harder and longer than one with a slide-in. there are good choices for either one.

i don't think that a hybrid tm, especially a DD one, will be here very soon. keep it simple and slide a TM into a hybrid van so that you can clean well and save money with high mpg. I wonder if the hybrid vans will be able to carry as much weight as a one ton van can today.

and laryy cobb....please update your website asap. it is 2015 not 1995. if you don't then just put up a big sign on the homepage that says "we know our site sucks, but we don't care. we love to talk on the phone. call us today." I can't be the only one who thinks that your site is hard to navigate.
 

Dolly Llama

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speculating on future gas TM marketing if lectromounts bridge all the grande chasms ...
(cause if they can bridge the Grand Canyon, they will make the gas TM a dinosaur)

in the same vein as Bane showing pics of blown and burn up trucks..., would gas TM outfits publicly electrocute animals like Edison did ?:eekk:

maybe an electric chair with the red circle/bar on it???

Singchair.jpg



..L.T.A.
 
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Larry Cobb

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Larry ;

Think about a strong marketing campaign in your town pointing out . . .

Hybrid TM's running off lithium batteries (2016 tech)

vs

Pollution belching gas or diesel (choke !) engines

spewing hydrocarbons into the neighborhood (1990 tech)


P.S. Mikey , What are the effects of the Diesel Idling Regulations in Calif.
 
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Dolly Llama

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Think about a strong marketing campaign in your town pointing out . . .
Hybrid TM's running off lithium batteries (2016 tech)
vs
Pollution belching gas or diesel (choke !) engines
spewing hydrocarbons into the neighborhood (1990 tech)

most here are common sense "normal" folks, Larry.
not whacked out weirdos like many on the left coast


what it all comes down to is a matter of dollars and cents, really .
when ALL the detail$ are added up over the long haul , not the just the parts in glossy pages of the ads

like battery life, charge times, chargers, replacement costs, weight/size, longevity/durability , performance , etc compared to 1 to 1.5 GPH gas TMs

I'm all for lowering costs and increasing efficiency .
I'm also glad to see development in that direction ...but all the co$ts have to be weighed

..L.T.A.
 

Bob Savage

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you can try to convince yourself of that, Bob , but unless you consider a 45 a "BIG" blower , we'll have to disagree

To make lectromounts competitive in the market place there are some hurdles that must be overcome .

equal performance of a 45 blower @ 3000 rpm and 15HG

eliminate the need to get into Mrs Phiff's laundry rm to unplug her drier

Eliminate the need to find separate 20a circuits and then stretching a couple/three 100ft long 10ga cords
(while reminding Mrs Phiff not to use her blow drier, washing machine or blender while fridge compressor is running)


and you'll still blow breakers in many homes

Eliminate the PITA factor of all of the above WITHOUT using a generator the size of most 36 blower gas TMs (sans waste tank)
and they'll sell like hotcakes

the first lectromount maker to do all that while adding an "adequate" heat source that doesn't require secondary fuel like propane or kero, and they'll dominate the TM market in a few short years..
Make it affordable/competitively priced and the single wand gas TM will become obsolete

.L.T.A.
When I use my ETM, I use only 2 -15 amp circuits, no 20 amp, because 20 amp circuits are just too hard to find.

I use no generator - it defeats the purpose of an electric machine in the first place.

I never mess with the customer's dryer or washer, or stove, etc., to get power.

Now using electric for heat is just not practical. It would take at least 6000 watts of power for electric heat, and that still won't touch a good fuel fired burner. But using LP or Kero is a problem because most cleaners only want HX .

I use 12 AWG cords. 12 AWG will handle 20 amps up to 100'. You do not need 10 AWG cords, not to mention they would be a beast to handle. I usually run a 60' and a 50' cord, and still have a little left. They are on hand reels which makes them easy to handle. Rarely will I blow a breaker, but it does happen once in a great while.

With this setup I am getting 230 CFM (without the use of an inline vac booster) and 10 Hg. This is more than enough vacuum for any job up to 125'. 99% of my jobs are less than 90'. However, I do not have to slow my vacuum stroke, or do more dry passes with this setup when compared to my slide-in with a Roots #45 blower.

No, I do not consider a #45 as being a BIG blower. It is medium in size. A BIG blower would be a #59 or larger.

If you look at the poll at the beginning of this thread, you'll see most cleaners are NOT interested in an electric machine.

ZEE - Did a short vid today cleaning a Doc's office with dual wands. You can see the heat, and hear the vacuum - both of which are more than adequate to do a great job and have a satisfied customer. Used 1.5" wands each with #6 flow because of the close quarters cleaning. we usually run a 2" Titanium and 1.5" SS.



Later I will do one showing the inside of the van setup, the fact that the heater temp was set at 210º, and RPM's were at 3000, etc., but that will require a third person.
 
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Zee

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When I use my ETM, I use only 2 -15 amp circuits, no 20 amp, because 20 amp circuits are just too hard to find.


With this setup I am getting 230 CFM (without the use of an inline vac booster) and 10 Hg. This is more than enough vacuum for any job up to 125'. 99% of my jobs are less than 90'. However, I do not have to slow my vacuum stroke, or do more dry passes with this setup when compared to my slide-in with a Roots #45 blower.



This^^^ interests me. I use the Dwellpro regularly and I need 2 20amp outlets (because of the cat pump and pump out) and even at 35feet of hose I could not come close to the power of my 45roots.
 

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