Can you explain this to me?
Dry Strokes, are they necessary?
- Thread starter Onfire_02_01
- Start date
Nate The Great
Member
Different strokes for different folks... There is no "right" or "proper" way to wand (unless you're T. Wheelwright and use the kings language) just as long your not leaving wet lines or not dry stroking..
My comments above was using a portable as the OP asked about.. The wet pass then immediate dry pass is IMHO the best for a porty user to recover the most water/moisture given the circumstances.. If empty, it doesn't matter as long as you have time to let it dry..
steve_64
Member
- Joined
- Aug 11, 2012
- Messages
- 13,372
The molecules in hot water are moving faster than cold water which makes it move easier and dry faster.Able 1 post: 4412051 said:
ruff
Member
Tom,
I agree.
However, assuming we all do a good job without cutting too many corners. My point was:
The worth of improvements in performance need also be measured in improvement of production.
Otherwise it ain't worth it.
The cliche of "taking it to the next level" is is as silly as its adopted sister- "don't leave money on the table"
On the other hand, people like you that strive to squeeze as much improvements out of our equipment and keep making it better, are great. I highly appreciate the contribution, the effort and the drive to make a better designed tools.
Keep the good work.
P.S. I'd love to see the wand you're working on. I hope you're designing it with the new screw on glide as the Mach and with a larger opening.
Hot Water and the chemicals used are designed to penetrate and break the bond the dirt has with the fiber.
The key is the longer the water and chems are left on the carpet the more time they have to penetrate further DOWN into the carpet. As most of our bodies are showing---Gravity works...
Just like when you put the end of a towel in a pool of water. It takes time for the water to wick all the way to the other end of the towel. But in Carpet you have gravity pulling the water down the fiber also.
Since you get no airflow through the backing of the carpet once the water works its way down to the backing it will not come out with your TM. The further down the carpet fiber the water/chem/dirt go the less you get out with your dry stroke.
When I fought fire in my youth we had soap we put in the Piss Pumps---backpacks with water--. Soapy water would penetrate to the coals of the fire and smother it much better. It was way more effective than just plain water that evaporated as it hit the top of the fire. Something to do with the lower surface tension of the water with soap in it. (soft water).
I am no chemist, not really a carpet cleaner either, but just my thought is the sooner the dry stroke is done the more water it gets out.---I have no proof.
Unlike most things in carpet cleaning this would be fairly easy to test. But unnecessary---
The key is the longer the water and chems are left on the carpet the more time they have to penetrate further DOWN into the carpet. As most of our bodies are showing---Gravity works...
Just like when you put the end of a towel in a pool of water. It takes time for the water to wick all the way to the other end of the towel. But in Carpet you have gravity pulling the water down the fiber also.
Since you get no airflow through the backing of the carpet once the water works its way down to the backing it will not come out with your TM. The further down the carpet fiber the water/chem/dirt go the less you get out with your dry stroke.
When I fought fire in my youth we had soap we put in the Piss Pumps---backpacks with water--. Soapy water would penetrate to the coals of the fire and smother it much better. It was way more effective than just plain water that evaporated as it hit the top of the fire. Something to do with the lower surface tension of the water with soap in it. (soft water).
I am no chemist, not really a carpet cleaner either, but just my thought is the sooner the dry stroke is done the more water it gets out.---I have no proof.
Unlike most things in carpet cleaning this would be fairly easy to test. But unnecessary---
I have always thought the water/chems laid down with a hydroforce are often the reason the carpets won't dry quickly. Lots of water laid down on the traffic areas and lots of time to soak down the carpet fiber.
Especially by hacks...
Especially by hacks...
Last edited:
One factor is more of the hot water will evaporate than the cold water when subjected to the airflow of the wand. I don't know how big of a factor this is.
ruff
Member
Most pre-sprays are formulated with penetrating agents that allow the water to go deeper. Unlike the common myth, being generous with your pre-spray, does not equate good cleaning. Actually, using the least amount necessary to dislodge (disslove etc.) soil, will be better. Most good cleaners do not put that much pre-spray, as to cause over wetting on its own.
However, the more pre-spray is put down, the deeper the water of rinsing will go in, leaving the carpet wetter. A good rinse will not have (or have little) penetrating agents.
We all walk a fine balance between using too much or not flushing well enough. An experienced carpet cleaner, adjusts to the fabric at hand, soil condition and pays attention (adjusts again) to how well the suction is going.
And yes. Dry strokes are necessary, regardless.
Spurlington
Member
Im used to leaving the water on as I move the wand back n forth with the exception of where I end my back stroke. I hate puddling. Especially when the customer had previously cleaned the carpet themselves - leaving a lot of detergent behind. Id end up with lighter streaks at the overlaps. I wish I could get into the habit of having the water on during the back stroke only then dry forward. That might end up with quicker dry times.
Sounds like you are using the Zipper method with your wand..
Spurlington
Member
Haha - right !!
ruff
Member
That's true, but usually not an issue, or not worth the hassle.
I've actually tried the wet on the backstrokes only with some of the carpets where the overlap was lighter. Still got lighter.
Cleanworks
Moderator
After prespraying the carpet, I only trigger one way and immediately do a dry pass on the up stroke, At the top of the stroke I overlap by about 1/3 wand width and do another stroke and so on. I usually start in the center of the room and work to the wall then dry stroke back to the center again. The only exception is working on a stubborn stain or traffic area. If you trigger on the up stroke, the cleaning solution falls deeper into the carpet making it more difficult to extract
Kellie Hiler
Member
Is that what causes that weird streaking? I've only ever run into that situation a few times and couldn't figure out why it was happening. It's from previous detergent being left in the carpet? The few times it happened I had to clean each room twice, doing a crisis cross pattern. I thought I was doing something wrong.
Spurlington
Member
Too scientifical for me to understand - that was always my guess. Would it be your detergent in your water is sitting longer than the rest of the pass at the end of your pass - because your puddling doesnt get picked up until your next row of passes. So the detergent from your pass has more time to clean that strip. It would only happen to me at times I knew for sure the customer used a rental leaving alot of residue. So my puddling would work in their residue causing a cleaner strip. Either way its probably a good idea to create the habit of ending your back stroke letting go of the trigger avoiding the puddling.
A few years back, now that I remember, I had this large great room, white nylon berber, clean up mint. The guy called me to take a look the next day. I saw every strip I had puddled in the form of browned up carpeting. You could tell every direction I cleaned by where I stopped. It wasnt dirty, just a light yellowish streak where I ended my pass. I believe that was the day I formed the habit of letting go of the trigger before the end of the stroke.
A few years back, now that I remember, I had this large great room, white nylon berber, clean up mint. The guy called me to take a look the next day. I saw every strip I had puddled in the form of browned up carpeting. You could tell every direction I cleaned by where I stopped. It wasnt dirty, just a light yellowish streak where I ended my pass. I believe that was the day I formed the habit of letting go of the trigger before the end of the stroke.
SamIam
Member
Ya the puddling on the back stroke, would be the same if you hot mopped it. Or took the vacuum off the wand and just ran steam and chemical into the carpet. Hooked your hose back up then extracted.
Don't tell me you haven't tried that on a grungy area,
Probably puddling isn't so bad if your using an acid rinse more noticeable if your using a good detergent.
If you ever hot mop you better dry stroke!
Don't tell me you haven't tried that on a grungy area,
Probably puddling isn't so bad if your using an acid rinse more noticeable if your using a good detergent.
If you ever hot mop you better dry stroke!
Kellie Hiler
Member
I've always done that with letting the trigger off so as not to have that puddling, and very rarely do forward wet strokes, unless it's really nasty, or I'm using the Zipper. But still had it happen a few times.
My husband used to drive me nuts when he was wanding...he would never take his damn fingers of the trigger.
I would grab the wand from him and dry stroke everything like a mad woman! And then after the cancer started progressing he would do really short strokes on top of that because of his rib pain, so finally I just grabbed the wand from him and permanently relegated him to the support role.
Now thankfully, due to the Zipper and the RV I very rarely have to even pick up the wand. Maybe just if there is only one small room in the basement or something like that.
My husband used to drive me nuts when he was wanding...he would never take his damn fingers of the trigger.
I would grab the wand from him and dry stroke everything like a mad woman! And then after the cancer started progressing he would do really short strokes on top of that because of his rib pain, so finally I just grabbed the wand from him and permanently relegated him to the support role. Now thankfully, due to the Zipper and the RV I very rarely have to even pick up the wand. Maybe just if there is only one small room in the basement or something like that.
Kellie Hiler
Member
What is hot mop?
Wick back, I think this is a pretty common problem with newer unexperienced cleaners, and we think it happens due to overwetting the carpet. I don't think this is completely true and this is why.
When we do a urine treatment what are we doing? We are instructed to completly soak the trouble spot, and even the pad, then we use sub surface tool to remove the water, to completely flush the area, we even take solution hose with open fitting to apply more water around the subsurface tool to help flush the area. When we are done we have left that area way wetter than any regular carpet cleaning would have done, the backing has been completley soaked, when we do this, and done properly how many of us have had to go back to take care of wicking?
I have had to once or twice but I would bet money that my problems were do to the fact I really didn't completely flush the spots, but for as much of it I have done the returns are minimal for the amount of times I performed this process.
My thought on this goes back to a church I had cleaned, another cleaner had cleaned and spots wicked everywhere, I explained to the customer, that I don't think the last cleaner properly flushed the carpet, and if I cleaned it I didn't think the spots would come back as I would make sure the spots/trouble areas would be properly flushed to get to the bottom of the trouble areas.
I cleaned and did super flush the areas...I know for a fact the backing of the carpet got wet, but I went over the carpet wet and dry tell I was satisfied the spots were cleaned or broke down enough that when it dried there was not enough of what was spilled to cause discoloration it came out great.
So why does VLM work, I think it works on the concept of ONLY cleaning the fibers, and leaving the true problem LOCKED into the backing of the carpet, not enough moisture has penetrated the true spot sitting just below the surface.
So when a HWE guy comes along and puts a ton of pre spray down and quick cleans a carpet they have introduced enough moisture to start to attack the troubled backing and does not take into account the proper flushing to remove it from the backing and therefore the spots start to reappear in a few hours as the carpet starts to dry from the surface pulling the spots to the surface.
That is my diluted belief anyway
When we do a urine treatment what are we doing? We are instructed to completly soak the trouble spot, and even the pad, then we use sub surface tool to remove the water, to completely flush the area, we even take solution hose with open fitting to apply more water around the subsurface tool to help flush the area. When we are done we have left that area way wetter than any regular carpet cleaning would have done, the backing has been completley soaked, when we do this, and done properly how many of us have had to go back to take care of wicking?
I have had to once or twice but I would bet money that my problems were do to the fact I really didn't completely flush the spots, but for as much of it I have done the returns are minimal for the amount of times I performed this process.
My thought on this goes back to a church I had cleaned, another cleaner had cleaned and spots wicked everywhere, I explained to the customer, that I don't think the last cleaner properly flushed the carpet, and if I cleaned it I didn't think the spots would come back as I would make sure the spots/trouble areas would be properly flushed to get to the bottom of the trouble areas.
I cleaned and did super flush the areas...I know for a fact the backing of the carpet got wet, but I went over the carpet wet and dry tell I was satisfied the spots were cleaned or broke down enough that when it dried there was not enough of what was spilled to cause discoloration it came out great.
So why does VLM work, I think it works on the concept of ONLY cleaning the fibers, and leaving the true problem LOCKED into the backing of the carpet, not enough moisture has penetrated the true spot sitting just below the surface.
So when a HWE guy comes along and puts a ton of pre spray down and quick cleans a carpet they have introduced enough moisture to start to attack the troubled backing and does not take into account the proper flushing to remove it from the backing and therefore the spots start to reappear in a few hours as the carpet starts to dry from the surface pulling the spots to the surface.
That is my diluted belief anyway
Last edited:
I also look back in the history of carpet cleaning, my Dad has told me back in the day they would use 175 with solution tanks to apply and scub the carpet, then they used wet vacs to suck up what they laid down, I bet that carpet was soaked, the problems with that type of cleaning was not so much wick back but the simple fact that NO FRESH water rinse was being applied, they were only sucking up the dirty overwet carpet, leaving a very soil attracting residue just waiting to clean the bottom of everyones shoes.
I'm not saying there wasn't a problem with some musty odors from this process as I am sure there was due to filthy unrinsed water left behind, but I think carpet is a lot more durable than we think, if you look back in time at how it was cleaned, compared to todays truckmounts and portables. Even a hack in todays standards more than likely leaves the carpet in better/drier/rinsed state than back in the day of that cleaning.
Also have you ever really noticed HOW MUCH water is coming out of even a 4 or 6 flow wand at 500-600 psi? Put it on some concrete and trigger it and tell me that pressure and volume of water isn't making it down to the backing, poly has NO absoption properties it is plastic fibers basically and the cheap crap is so thin. So if there is a coke spill it has done its damage to the backing as this is about the only place it has to go.
I'm not saying there wasn't a problem with some musty odors from this process as I am sure there was due to filthy unrinsed water left behind, but I think carpet is a lot more durable than we think, if you look back in time at how it was cleaned, compared to todays truckmounts and portables. Even a hack in todays standards more than likely leaves the carpet in better/drier/rinsed state than back in the day of that cleaning.
Also have you ever really noticed HOW MUCH water is coming out of even a 4 or 6 flow wand at 500-600 psi? Put it on some concrete and trigger it and tell me that pressure and volume of water isn't making it down to the backing, poly has NO absoption properties it is plastic fibers basically and the cheap crap is so thin. So if there is a coke spill it has done its damage to the backing as this is about the only place it has to go.
Last edited:
I would also like to state that yes we want to leave the carpet as dry as possible, but what have most of us complained about when we use rotary type tools, I have noticed from the forums that they leave the carpet wetter than we like?
This is true, but they are leaving it in a CLEANER WET if properly used, Mikey asked above the question WAS THE WATER STILL DIRTY WHEN DRY STROKES WERE DONE?
ALL of this is being taken into account as we are working on the NO NAME WAND..... Zipper, Rotaries, other wands even. What makes them work and get there results.
What is the affect of drier carpet vs a little wetter but more throughly flushed carpet, and having the ability to choose what is better for the carpet you incounter at that paticular cleaning job and be able to adjust to it immediatly, all of these things are being looked at and we are trying to work them into the wand.
This is true, but they are leaving it in a CLEANER WET if properly used, Mikey asked above the question WAS THE WATER STILL DIRTY WHEN DRY STROKES WERE DONE?
ALL of this is being taken into account as we are working on the NO NAME WAND..... Zipper, Rotaries, other wands even. What makes them work and get there results.
What is the affect of drier carpet vs a little wetter but more throughly flushed carpet, and having the ability to choose what is better for the carpet you incounter at that paticular cleaning job and be able to adjust to it immediatly, all of these things are being looked at and we are trying to work them into the wand.
Larry Cobb
Member
The wet vacs were ineffective, and quickly replaced by a heavier rinsing drag wand , that created the 1st dirty water recovery for the customer.
Cleanworks
Moderator
Mikey P
Administrator
More is always better.
Use a wand and hose combo that makes stroking fun again.
We'll try and get Higginsific with it in Wandlanta.
Use a wand and hose combo that makes stroking fun again.
We'll try and get Higginsific with it in Wandlanta.
Bob Savage
Member
I have developed a carpet cleaning stroke when cleaning with a wand.
Using a 2" TI wand, 4-jets, #8 flow, with 2" vacuum hose all the way to the wand, I push the wand forward with the trigger pulled, letting off the trigger at the end of the stroke. This stroke dry vacuums the area before the jets can wet it. Next, I pull the wand staright back, with the trigger pulled again until the end of the pull stroke, where I release the trigger. This stroke wets the carpet again, but with the vacuum slot following the jets, so the carpet is vacuumed again (dry vacuumed). To start the next stroke I overlap 40-50% of the previous stroke and repeat the up and back procedure, if the carpet is moderately soiled. If the carpet is lightly soiled, I reduce the overlap, heaviest soiled, increase the overlap. This eliminates having to go back and do straight dry strokes, and you are able to get finished sooner and still do a great job. There is no sense in over-doing the strokes if they are not necessary.
I have tested this method using the clear 2" vacuum tube 6' from the wand, on all types of carpet from resi to commercial. Going back over the cleaned area with a separate dry stroke showed no additional moisture coming thru the clear tube.
We did a commercial facility the other day with CGD, and the areas we first cleaned were dry before we left 2 hours later. We were dual wanding as usual.
Using a 2" TI wand, 4-jets, #8 flow, with 2" vacuum hose all the way to the wand, I push the wand forward with the trigger pulled, letting off the trigger at the end of the stroke. This stroke dry vacuums the area before the jets can wet it. Next, I pull the wand staright back, with the trigger pulled again until the end of the pull stroke, where I release the trigger. This stroke wets the carpet again, but with the vacuum slot following the jets, so the carpet is vacuumed again (dry vacuumed). To start the next stroke I overlap 40-50% of the previous stroke and repeat the up and back procedure, if the carpet is moderately soiled. If the carpet is lightly soiled, I reduce the overlap, heaviest soiled, increase the overlap. This eliminates having to go back and do straight dry strokes, and you are able to get finished sooner and still do a great job. There is no sense in over-doing the strokes if they are not necessary.
I have tested this method using the clear 2" vacuum tube 6' from the wand, on all types of carpet from resi to commercial. Going back over the cleaned area with a separate dry stroke showed no additional moisture coming thru the clear tube.
We did a commercial facility the other day with CGD, and the areas we first cleaned were dry before we left 2 hours later. We were dual wanding as usual.
Mikey P
Administrator
Bob we need you to demo your dual wand aproach in Nashville.
We will have a whole day for this stuff on location
We will have a whole day for this stuff on location
Cleanworks
Moderator
I am one of those guys that got into the business using a rotary 175 and a wet vac. We didn't over wet the carpet because we were using a dry foam shampoo. The wet vac didn't remove much moisture but it picked up loose lint and soil. At the end of the day after 5 jobs, when we dumped the wet vac, there might be half a gallon of water and a few pounds of lint and dirt. The carpets would dry in about 4 hours. We used to let little kids ride on the scrubber. We'd probably get sued if we tried that now. The horizontal lines that you get from over lapping with a wand are because you are cleaning that area more than rest of the carpet. This usually happens on a heavily soiled carpet or if you haven't presprayed properly. Ironically, if you are triggering both up and down, this doesn't happen as often as you are doing a more thorough job of flushing. If you clean as I do, (triggering on the down stroke only) you have to do a more complete prespray and maybe slow down your wand speed.
SamIam
Member
Taking the vacuum hose off the wand and running hot steam over an area.
Mikey P
Administrator
How would you brainy types suggest we test and compare 2" and 1.5" wands and hoses in Wandlanta?
Kellie Hiler
Member
I will leave that one to the guys with brains....
