300 Degrees of heat?

[B&BGaryC]

That's about what a vortex does right?

How is 300 degrees a good thing? (I'm not being obtuse, I want to learn guys)

I figure I can start causing damage to an olefin carpet at 180 or 200 degrees, my machine gets up to 220 or 240. I have never turned it up all the way. It just seems like too much heat. If my little white magic is capable of putting out 200 + at the wand, should I be doing it then? What is all this extra heat used for? (Other than melting cheap olefin?)

Thanks for your input.

 

[The Cleaning Artist]

280 all day and no damage to poly's. But I don't use steel braid hose either. Polys clean really easy with good chemistry.

 

[B&BGaryC]

Well, what kind of wonder-weasel hose do you use then?

If I can use all of the heat my truck has, that would be a good thing. I need more solution line anyway, my hose has had about 6 blow outs and is as old as the machine....

 

[A. wilson]

Get the Blue Parlfex from Greenie.

 

[Guest]

Parker hose is good place to check also.

 

[B&BGaryC]

So these wonder-weasel hoses will keep me from melting olefin if I turn my machine up all the way? Will it also keep hose-monkeys from complaining about how hot the hose is?

How much for 250 ft?

and, what keeps the brass fittings from melting through their carpet and subfloor?

 

[Farenheit251]

When you refer to melting points for carpet you need to realize that if the carpet temp is 75 and the water is 200 the fiber the temp reaches will be in between. 200 even at the wand I doubt you get the carpet much hotter thanyou can wash your hands with. Even then it is cooling immediately. Steel hose and brass couplings will transfer heat very efficiently.

 

[Johnnyone]

When you refer to Poly What is it

Polypropylene or polyester?

Thanks

 

[Tile Nerd]

280 all day and no damage to poly's. But I don't use steel braid hose either. Polys clean really easy with good chemistry.

You may want to put a "lie detector" on the wand to see what temp you are getting there.

The melting point of polypropylene starts around 220 degrees. 280 degrees will do some serious damage to polypropylene or olefin as it is frequently called.

Poly needs good chemistry with around 180 degrees of heat. Generally drys in 1 to 2 hours.

 

[The Cleaning Artist]

trust me, my machine runs 280 with one wand and 230/240 with both wands. I have no brass quick connects in the clients home unless 150 will not make it out the front door. I use parker and synflex cc hose. The synflex is no longer made. My parker hose is over 10 years old and still going strong. I just put new ends on them when they start leaking.

Also make sure that you don't walk on the hose while it's laying on the carpet.

 

[Shawn Forsythe]

First, 300 degrees at the machine is NOT the temp at the wand.

Second, the temp at the wand is NOT the temp at the fiber tips.

Ideally your "true cleaning temp" will never exceed 211 degrees F. It is desirable to have the water remain in a liquid state on the fibers, as surfactants will both attain dwell time and suspend soils in the liquid state only. As well, most surfactants used in our industry have cloud points far below 300 degrees, where problems would really start to fly. Liquid will also have much more kinetic energy exiting the jets.

Liquid cleaning solution in a fine spray loses alot of temperature crossing the air gap between a jet and the fibers. As well, the caret fibers would almost instantly heat sink the temp even further.

The real advantage to super heating water on a truckmount is to achieve a boosted heat that accounts for massive heat loss in the hose run and the subsequent heat loss in the wand and jet gap. Not too much compensation though as gaseous water vapor, or steam will have much less effectiveness if allowed to exist at the wand jet tip. You do actually want liquid water with much more hitting force(agitation) and flushing action.

Units that have Superior heating ability really shine in colder climates where it is both more difficult to heat water, and it more easily cools in the lines reaching the wand.

I would not so much worry about melting carpet fibers, as the operator will purposefully not even want to bring the temp to the point where all that is coming out the jet is pure vapor and ruined("clouded") surfactant. Nevermind the fact that any solution over 211 degrees will offgas instantly, whilst cooling massively and never be even able to maintain any elevated fiber temps.

 

[Out of Character - 0]

We run 275 atm single wand on most jobs, tested with a lie detector. With 18 flow we have never had any heat issues on any carpet. We did however damage a hallway with a rdm and 325 atm. Permanent extraction lines

 

[Dolly Llama]

anyone here have a V that will HONESTLY get 300 degree sol temps?
Not heat spikes, 300 temps while running the wand

.......................................................................................................

"When you refer to Poly What is it
Polypropylene or polyester?
Thanks"

yes..both
...........................................................................................


"The melting point of polypropylene starts around 220 degrees. 280 degrees will do some serious damage to polypropylene or olefin as it is frequently called."

280ATM, you'll never get that temp to the fiber.
A few guys might get 180 to 200 ATF.
MOST don't even get close to that.

"Poly needs good chemistry with around 180 degrees of heat."

I with you on good chemistry, the 180 thingy is baloney.
There's a world of difference in cleaning soiled poly/olie going from 180 to 250+ ATM
My guess is, you've never cleaned in the "real world" with a TM that makes mega heat

...........................................................................................

Gary, we've never permanently distorted olie or poly carpets with Parker.
We DID permanently distort a cut pile poly once with steel braid .
Parker isn't as hot to touch and steel braid.

lastly, I still haven't got around to measuring temps ATF since we bumped up flow and put the jets closer to the floor w/extenders.
But here's a reality check on temps ATF we've measured.

2 jet wand with 06 jetting @350 psi
125ft Parker, appx 30ft across a cold parking lot to entrance.
20 to 25 degree outside air temp
280 ATM.
The BEST we could get to the fiber was 142
Best we could get w/04 jetted wand was a luke warm 128

6 jet stock Ti (06 flow) summer time temps
100ft of Parker
sustained 272 ATM @450psi
The best we got to the fiber was 180


..L.T.A.

 

[Tile Nerd]

I with you on good chemistry, the 180 thingy is baloney.
There's a world of difference in cleaning soiled poly/olie going from 180 to 250+ ATM
My guess is, you've never cleaned in the "real world" with a TM that makes mega heat
..L.T.A.

You are guessing wrong then. Steam Action Stealth Eagle and the Steamway Powermatic both produce mega heat. But we choose not to braze olefin with high temperatures. More then once I've seen white olefin that was turned grey from to much heat (previous cleaners handy work).

As far as temperature and polypropylene are concerned science doesn't lie. I worked with a variety of melt flow polypropylenes in a injection molding facility for 12 years and am quite aware it's melting point. Mega heat will damage it! I don't recommend cleaning above 180.

Chemistry is the most important variable when cleaning olefin.

 

[The Cleaning Artist]

Larry your tests results are very close to mine. ATF temps with a moving wand, 08 flow, 300 psi, 150 ft of hose was 146 to 159 degrees. The temp reading was constantly changing and I will say the cause was the moving wand while trying to stay under the jets. This was measured in the fiber.

 

[The Cleaning Artist]

High heat from water didn't cause the fiber to turn gray. Or I should say I have never seen it happen. I get the fiber much hotter with an iron doing color removal than one would during cleaning without any color change. Most likely soil that was not removed... Or might be a blended fiber carpet which one fiber lost some of it's color due to high ph shift. High meaning high acid or alkaline(2-3 or 12-13).

 

[Dolly Llama]

"More then once I've seen white olefin that was turned grey from to much heat (previous cleaners handy work). "

curious how you know it was high heat?
Were you there?
Did you see the condition of the carpet before they cleaned it?
Know what chems and procedures were used by the previous cleaners?
What wand was they were using?
What jetting?

If you don't know those things, I think you're making some awful large ASSumptions

Have you ever measured temps ATF running 100ft of line and 180ATM?

..L.T.A.

 

[Dolly Llama]

"High heat from water didn't cause the fiber to turn gray. Or I should say I have never seen it happen."

Nor have I, Harley.

" I get the fiber much hotter with an iron doing color removal than one would during cleaning without any color change."

true that, Bro


..L.T.A.

 

[Tile Nerd]

High heat from water didn't cause the fiber to turn gray. Or I should say I have never seen it happen. I get the fiber much hotter with an iron doing color removal than one would during cleaning without any color change. Most likely soil that was not removed... Or might be a blended fiber carpet which one fiber lost some of it's color due to high ph shift. High meaning high acid or alkaline(2-3 or 12-13).

I'm referring to polypropylene or olefin specifically. You can actually use 100% clorox bleach on olefin without hurting it's color because the color is melted into the fiber when it's woven. Similarly a yellow mop bucket will not lose it's color from bleach because it's polypropylene. pH will not generally hurt a 100% olefin fiber (99% of the time....I don't want to rule it out completely). Temperature and abrasion are to most common ways olefin fibers are damaged.

 

[Tile Nerd]

"More then once I've seen white olefin that was turned grey from to much heat (previous cleaners handy work). "

curious how you know it was high heat?
Were you there?
Did you see the condition of the carpet before they cleaned it?
Know what chems and procedures were used by the previous cleaners?
What wand was they were using?
What jetting?

If you don't know those things, I think you're making some awful large ASSumptions

Have you ever measured temps ATF running 100ft of line and 180ATM?

..L.T.A.

No, I wasn't there. I'm taking the word of a local carpet inspector combined with my knowledge of polypropylene.

Chemicals generally can't damage 100% olefin. Read my previous post and test it yourself.

No need to chance it with the chemistry does the trick. If the brass can melt it, then water can braze it, turning white to light grey. Not an assumption... it's called application of science.

 

[The Cleaning Artist]

A strong acid WILL remove color from the poly family of carpets. I have fixed a few color loss problems.

 

[Tile Nerd]

A strong acid WILL remove color from the poly family of carpets. I have fixed a few color loss problems.

It couldn't have been 100% olefin then. It had to be a blend and it was the blended fiber that had a color loss.

 

[The Cleaning Artist]

100% polyester
with color loss


I have also seen it on olefin.

 

[Tile Nerd]

I guess I'm gonna have to agree..............






to disagree!



check this out: http://www.carpetinspector.com/olefin_carpet.htm

It is the most heat sensitive of all yarns. Solution couplers used in association with truckmount steam cleaning machines may cause permanent distortions and so will dragging heavy furniture across it.



and this is found at: http://www.housekeepingchannel.com/a_39 ... pet_Wisely

Olefin's favorable qualities include:

Water resistance (including water-based spills and acid dye spills, such as Kool-Aid)
Colorfastness (will not lose color because the color in olefin is "locked in" due to solution dyeing at the mill)
Chemical resistance (you can use very strong cleaning solutions when cleaning or spotting olefin)

 

[The Cleaning Artist]

I guess I'm gonna have to agree..............






to disagree!



check this out: http://www.carpetinspector.com/olefin_carpet.htm

It is the most heat sensitive of all yarns. Solution couplers used in association with truckmount steam cleaning machines may cause permanent distortions and so will dragging heavy furniture across it.



and this is found at: http://www.housekeepingchannel.com/a_39 ... pet_Wisely

Olefin's favorable qualities include:

Water resistance (including water-based spills and acid dye spills, such as Kool-Aid)
Colorfastness (will not lose color because the color in olefin is "locked in" due to solution dyeing at the mill)
Chemical resistance (you can use very strong cleaning solutions when cleaning or spotting olefin)

Solution couplers(hose)
DISTORTIONS NOT COLOR LOSS!


APPLY SOME BATHROOM TOILET CLEANER TO A POLY AND TELL ME WHAT HAPPENS!!!!

 

[Tile Nerd]

Solution couplers(hose)
DISTORTIONS NOT COLOR LOSS!


APPLY SOME BATHROOM TOILET CLEANER TO A POLY AND TELL ME WHAT HAPPENS!!!!

That's right "distortion not color loss"! Color can't be removed or changed with 100% polypropylene without heat because the color is added when the plastic is melted before the yarn is made. If the coupler will distort it, so will "mega hot" water (as someone called it) because of it's low melting point. The white to grey is a distortion from being brazed.

Nothing happened from the toilet bowl cleaner or the clorox except it got wet. Now you try it on a spare piece like I did.

 

[The Cleaning Artist]

Bleach will not remove color.

Give the toilet cleaner some time and you will see major color loss.

Been there, re-colored, collected check.

By your statments, no poly would ever loose color and color could not be deposited?


How long have you been cleaning?

 

[Dolly Llama]

"If the coupler will distort it, so will "mega hot" water (as someone called it) because of it's low melting point."

dude, are you paying attention??
the water is never that hot when it hits the fiber.
check the temps for your self.
You can buy a quick rise digital candy thermometer at Harbor Freight for $5 bukz.
Lay it on the carpet under the jet spray.
Crank your Powermatic thermostat all the way up.
peg the 280 temp gage.
Leave your wand triggered for at least 30 seconds to get peak heat flowing through the line and wand.

Read 'em and weep

If you're running 06 flow jets (what most CCers run) you won't get 140 degrees ATF running 180ATM


..L.T.A.

 

[adamh]

the V does not get 300 degrees. I wouldn't want a machine that does.

 

[Tile Nerd]

Bleach will not remove color.

Give the toilet cleaner some time and you will see major color loss.

Been there, re-colored, collected check.

By your statments, no poly would ever loose color and color could not be deposited?


How long have you been cleaning?

Brazing is not adding color, it is changing it by slightly melting, and streaking the fiber. I'm at a loss for how to explain this brazing affect any better then that.

The length of time cleaning has nothing to do with it. I was smarter then 80% of the cleaners in my area after 3 months in this industry because I took a class and learned how to clean olefin. I know guys in my area who have cleaned for 30 years that don't have the knowledge I have. I say that with humility and am thankful that I'm obsessed with researching and networking (my wife isn't so thankful though). My wife doesn't call me the "Talk Master" for nothing. We all learn different things at different rates.

I have always tried to surround myself with people who have more knowledge and experience then me. That's how I learn.

I also have carpet, tile & grout, a wife, 3 kids (9 ,6, & 2), and 100 lb indoor dog. Makes for a good training ground! The family room has white, nylon berber (the dog and the berber can be seen in the "a thousand words" forum in a post titled "Killer Bunny Rabbit") and one of the tiled areas has a 100% heat-set polypropylene area rug.