Another yellow page question

[daniel@procarpet]

The sales reps have been hitting my phone hard the last couple of months. I have tried blocking everything they say out. Today on a job I started thinking about what the sales rep actually said. I told her that yp attract price shoppers and I am refuse to pay for another ad. She explained their new pay for performance system. Basically you only pay for each call or lead you get. Well in this directory you can put your price or minimum so if you put 125 minimum or whatever in big bold letters with a classy well designed ad I would think that would keep price shoppers from calling and you would know you are dealing with someone who wants a quality job and would only pay for each call. Who cares if they want to sell you the number. You are going to give the customer a magnet and all your other goodies with your acutal number on it right? Is this a scam or legit?

 

[Brian R]

I don't believe any of their reports.
I wouldn't do the tracking number thing.

All I have been getting is the price shoppers and crap jobs from the phone book.

I will stick with the internet.

The phone book for me was for "free" and it's almost not worth that.

Bad day today....phone book job.

 

[daniel@procarpet]

Everytime I get the nerve to do another ad I get the same "How much you charge fo three rooms" or "Is yall running any specials" calls. No but you can call this other company. I think I will start subing out all of my calls from old phone bookd ads to other cleaners for 50 percent.

 

[Wayne Miller]

I wonder how many price shoppers call the guys at the front of the section with the expensive full-page ads? Not many I bet. Why would they, they gotta be just as expensive if they can afford that ad.

We get a lot of work from the YP's, always have. We're in four or five books now, all but one are preforming consistently. We don't get anymore price shoppers from the YP than we do anywhere else.

Don't price shoppers look for coupons anyway? What would drive them to the yellow pages when ValPak, SuperCoops, the Penny Saver, next week's newspaper TV insert and any number other discounts show up every week?

Just my humble opinion, if a YP ad is generating an inordinate number of price shoppers there's probably something about the ad that's whispering, "Call me, I'm cheap." Afterall, that's the purpose of the cheap-price and fine-print advertising so many of us seem to loathe, right? Look! Three rooms and a FREE hall for $29....we accept all competitors coupons, we'll beat any price! Other things can suggest we might be willing to bargain.

I'm not suggesting their fingers never do the walking, but price shoppers have plenty of price-based advertising to keep them occupied.

A good way to almost guarantee yourself a mediocre ad that blends in, and, who knows, perhaps does a fantastic job of attracting price shoppers is letting the YP folks do your ad.

Need convincing?

Here's what they do for you,

Then, they turn around and do these for themselves,

For you,

For them,

You,

Them,

You again,

And, them again,

Interesting contrast between what they do to promote their own products and services and the effort they take to promote the products and services of their advertisers, huh?

In our experience, there are a few things to keep in mind.

Don't let the YP's do your ad.

Do everything you can NOT to look like a discount cleaner....unless, of course, you are.

And, possibly most critical is placement. You don't need to be all the way in the front but you don't want to be buried in the back either. See who's in your directory and what they're doing. Pick the size and color options based on what you think will give you the best placement. The first half-page is just as good, maybe better, than the last full-page. If every ad your size is b&w, maybe you should do color. If every ad is color, maybe b&W with white knock-out would make you stand out more. Don't wing, give it some serious thought.

The YP's are hurting. They're wheeling and dealing. We're paying a fraction of what we did four years ago. Not only that, there's far fewer advertisers competing for attention. Personally, I think it's a good time to buy.

 

[Brian R]

Good point Wayne...my mood didn't help with my answer last night. Sorry.

I've said it's usualy the ad not the ad company that makes it's work.

What does your YP ads look like.

 

[billyeadon]

Well this is perplexing. I hate the YP and speak against them every chance. But and this is a big but Wayne certainly makes sense. I agree a well written ad will help separate the price shoppers from the people who are looking for a good job for a fair price. In other words they want value.

Now a question for Wayne. How do you know what position you are going to receive in the next years phone book. Each year companies change size or drop out continuously.

My feeling is that I prefer direct mail, websites etc. Sending customers to the phone book exposes them to all the competition.

Whatever anyone does I think they should contact Wayne to develop an ad for them whether it is in the phone book or a postcard.

Wayne, hopefully we can talk about these issues on our program in Nashville at MikeyFest.

 

[Brian R]

When people look for carpet cleaners, they are going to go (or try to go) to where the carpet cleaners advertise.

If you can tell them ahead of time who you are, that's great. But isn't always the case.

I think that if you advertise where your good customers will go to look for a cleaner then you will have a better chance of landing a quality customer.

I like the internet because if someone finds you there, you know they at least have half a brain...not always...but usually.

They can at least be convinced of what you are doing and understand it.

Phone books are too easy and it's just a thing of the past.


The ad is still the most important thing. I try to make my potential customer think that I am the cats meow when they come to my website.

I will still attract price shoppers but the guy who wants what he pays for will still be the guy to call me.

The law of averages at work...just try to make them in your favor.

 

[ACE]

Wayne is right; bigger more attractive ads get more calls and better jobs. The YP are good if you need to grow a customer base fast and are able to retain most of your customers. Most of the YP reps I have meet with are lying dirt bags that will screw you if they can, so you have to negotiate hard to get a good deal. When I got off the phone with a rep yesterday I doubled the size of my current ad for $2.00 more a month.

 

[Wayne Miller]

Boy, what Ace said!

I can understand anybody's mood when it comes to YP advertising. While I'm a big fan of YP advertising, I'm not a big fan of YP companies, their statistics, their policies, most of the YP reps we've done business with or the systemic lack of concern all YP employees share when their products fail to live up to even the minimum of expectations. Everything is about up-selling something bigger, more colorful and more expensive. Here's the graphs and flip charts showing how much more effective some study group suggests it might be. But, when it becomes a boat anchor and the monthly payment threatens to shut you down, "We're sorry it's not working our for you, sir. Maybe if we increase the size and add color next time...."

We're fortunate. Gena's background is in advertising and graphic design. My father was an advertising guy for 30 years. A friend of ours, and talented designer in her own right, was a treasure trove of information when we started expanding into YP advertising. Gena dragged me licking and screaming into the YP's. I wanted no part of it. You wouldn't believe the time and energy Gena put into making them work. I'm lucky I was there to soak it all in.

I don't discount the value or the advantages of the Internet. But, lots of people still use the phone book. You don't have to plug it in. It's the fastest way to find a local business. You don't always feel like sorting through two, three, four pages or more of search results to find somebody. The twenty and thirty-somethings are more likely to go online than the fifty and sixty-somethings. The the fifty and sixty-somethings have more incentive and money to call a professional.

I'd wager most business aren't nearly as web savvy as most of us are here. Never one to miss an opportunity, and realizing everything from technology to environmentalist wackos are hastening the demise of print directories, the YP folks added, what else, Internet products. Unfortunately, they'll be the ones introducing lots of business owners to the wonders of the Internet. When they don't put anymore effort into making it effective than they have the print directories, and they sell it in tandem with your print ad as "a way to get your feet wet," I imagine this will discourage a lot of businesses from renewing their Internet advertising, perpetuating the interest in print directories. Just my hunch, I don't see them going away anytime soon.

We've got a few different ads our, here's a couple of them,

 

[joe harper]

I disagree...We do great with our AD...WE SELL SERVICE....NOT PRICE...!

Internet is the worst for SHOPPERS...They sit on their ass...& shop with no PERSONAL
COMMITTMENT TO BUY...Just waste your time...with stupid back & forth e-mails...

Here is what the Y-Pages does...If a cleint has taken the TIME..To get off their ass
Find the book...search for a cleaner.. :!: "THEY ARE READY TO SPEND MONEY.."NOW."

They have a "personal" investment in the inquiry...because it forces them to ACTUALLY
have a conversation with a HUMAN BEING..."Hince".. the start of a relationship in the sale.

Many SENIORS..can't afford the internet....are not computer savey...Nor trust internet
businesses.... :!: They also ..TRUST...local businesses.... :wink:

Billy,

You control your position . By having First Position...This is Guarenteed by,Full page,color
ads...For consecutive years...!

If you dont' get a good response from the Y-P...It is probalaly because of your ADD

PS. I LOAD my ad with lots of COPY....Price shoppers are too Lazy..to read this must COPY
just like those of you that will not read this ENTIRE ad.. :roll: You are probably too cheap
for our SERVICE also.... :mrgreen:

 

[billyeadon]

Joe,

If I may ask how much is the annual cost for that ad and are you tracking so you know your ROI? What happens if Stanley or Chem Dry comes in with a double page ad?

Of course I love the products in the ad .

If you are running that ad again correct the spelling. Commercial.

If it is working as you say then don't listen to anyone on this board or anywhere else. Nothing like phones ringing and money in the bank to prove an opinion.

 

[Wayne Miller]

Bill......

Sorry, Bill, I missed your post.

I agree, it's impossible to know exactly where you'll land next year. The YP reps, of course, won't help you gain much insight either.

Gena spent hours and hours trying her best to sort things out. I always knew when renewal time was coming because I'd come to bed and find her asleep with a half dozen phone books covering the bed or I'd find her nestled on the couch with an armful of directories for days at a time.

It was a ton of work but the rewards are well worth it.

 

[joe harper]

Joe,

If I may ask how much is the annual cost for that ad and are you tracking so you know your ROI? What happens if Stanley or Chem Dry comes in with a double page ad?

Of course I love the products in the ad .

If you are running that ad again correct the spelling. Commercial.

If it is working as you say then don't listen to anyone on this board or anywhere else. Nothing like phones ringing and money in the bank to prove an opinion.

Hey Billy,

$473 per month...Plus a Half-Page add in Tile & grout cleaning...+ a 10% Off coupon add..
It should be NOTED..That I am in a rural area..

I have an agreement ...In writing ..!!! with the book...That they must give me written
notification if my 1st position is in jeopardy.. In your senerio..Yes..I would have to puchase the same amount of SPACE to retain my position..!!

I understand my market area very well...been here 31 years...
I will agree with you on this point...If you are NOT going to commit to a FULL PAGE ad..
you are wasting your money...

Here is a little info to some of the guys here..."as billy says"..If you want to DOMANATE
the book...&...really piss-off you main competition.. :idea: "SUCK-IT-UP" and take their #1
position away...with a 2 Page add.. :x

You will almost always get your investment back!!!! & run them out of the book.. :idea:

pS Billy...ALWAYs "mRs" SpEll one word in your advertising.. :wink: It will make the EdUMaCaTeD...client...serch the add more thourally for anuther mistcake...."GOTCH-U".

 

[billyeadon]

You are right I did search the ad so I guess it worked.

Joe,

If I may ask how much is the annual cost for that ad and are you tracking so you know your ROI? What happens if Stanley or Chem Dry comes in with a double page ad?

Of course I love the products in the ad .

If you are running that ad again correct the spelling. Commercial.

If it is working as you say then don't listen to anyone on this board or anywhere else. Nothing like phones ringing and money in the bank to prove an opinion.

Hey Billy,

$473 per month...Plus a Half-Page add in Tile & grout cleaning...+ a 10% Off coupon add..
It should be NOTED..That I am in a rural area..

I have an agreement ...In writing ..!!! with the book...That they must give me written
notification if my 1st position is in jeopardy.. In your senerio..Yes..I would have to puchase the same amount of SPACE to retain my position..!!

I understand my market area very well...been here 31 years...
I will agree with you on this point...If you are NOT going to commit to a FULL PAGE ad..
you are wasting your money...

Here is a little info to some of the guys here..."as billy says"..If you want to DOMANATE
the book...&...really piss-off you main competition.. :idea: "SUCK-IT-UP" and take their #1
position away...with a 2 Page add.. :x

You will almost always get your investment back!!!! & run them out of the book.. :idea:

pS Billy...ALWAYs "mRs" SpEll one word in your advertising.. :wink: It will make the EdUMaCaTeD...client...serch the add more thourally for anuther mistcake...."GOTCH-U".

 

[Brian R]

In books or internet I have said that if you go into it ....Go big.

These guys who spend $100.00 on internet advertising wonder why it doesn't work.

 

[Wayne Miller]

I don't know if I'd agree a two page ad will always pay off. An $1800 two page slot in one area might be several thousand more in another area. And, while we've overall netted a positive with our YP efforts, we have had books that didn't always pan out. We have one of those now.

The books we use are relatively cost effective. For the money, it's a good value. If we were in the position to spend thousands of dollars more every month, though, you can bet we'd put it most of it into direct mail.

I agree, Brian. You can't be afraid to open your wallet. Sure, it might be risky but it's necessary. And, if you give up before your advertising has had a chance to take root you run the risk of losing the cummulative value of everything you've done up to that point.

 

[joe harper]

Wayne,

I agree that a 2 page ad is overkill...

But it will usually ASSURE you the coveted 1st position...

The Y-Pages...are in a lot of trouble as ALL print media...

I have for the last 10 years...recieved the standard 5% discount...for payment in full..

This year I negotiated that rate to 20 %.... :shock:

 

[daniel@procarpet]

Harper are you serious? You are getting a full page ad in the yp for less than 500 dollars a month. We have two books in Memphis. The Real Yellow Pages or ATandT and Yellow Book. The last time I checked a full page color ad with internet exposure was around 50,000 per year. I did a third of a page full color ad and it was right at 1500 per month.

Ace. Large display ads only get more calls if none of the ads have pricing in them. I did a in-column ad with low price points and averaged 200 calls per month. I only needed one decent job to pay for the ad as it was only 350 per month. The large displays I have done averaged around 50-75 calls per month and 90 percent of those were price shoppers or people calling needing just one room cleaned etc.

In the past if you placed an expensive ad and it did not produce you still had to pay for the ad. If I did another ad in the Real Yellow Pages I could put in the book 100 dollar minimum charge in big bold letters and I would think this would keep price shoppers for calling. If I get no calls then I wouldn't have to pay full rate. I think a well crafted ad that targeted service and not price could work.

 

[joe harper]

"Danielsaun"

you are making NO sense... :?

If you want CHEAPER Y-Pages RATES.....................MOVE................

If you advertise a cheap price...guess What..? You will get cheap callers..

If you put a BIG red...$100.00 min....? You will PISS all callers OFF...

The ADD is only to generate the CALL... :!:

It is your JOB to BOOK the caller ... :idea:

If your ADD generated 200 call a month... :!: "It did its job" 8)

If you had CLOSED....50% of those calls.. :?:

Your truck would have been BOOKED..for 2 months... :wink:

 

[Royal Man]

Why is bigger always better? If that was true all businesses would have double full page ads.

Having to net $2000 or more just to break even can be a fastest way to the poor house. Especially when you have to come up with the cash in the middle of winter. Many businesses have failed this way. (A bigger shingle is not all it takes.)

That is quite a risky gamble jus to advertise along with your competition.(The last place you should be, because you're watering down your advertising dollar.))

Even with the web more more money doesn't guarantee better placement. Being #1 is even more important on the web than it is in the Yellow Page. (Most YPs will not guarantee placement)

I've been asking my customers and others if they use the Yellow Pages and very few even know where their book is. They find it easier to surf while at work or home.

While the YPs can work I have found that it has diminishing returns and now day there are much better ways to get a better ROI and still have great visibility.

 

[joe harper]

Dave ,

Which one of your "2"...clients could NOT find the BOOK....

 

[daniel@procarpet]

"Danielsaun"

you are making NO sense... :?

If you want CHEAPER Y-Pages RATES.....................MOVE................

If you advertise a cheap price...guess What..? You will get cheap callers..

If you put a BIG red...$100.00 min....? You will PISS all callers OFF...

The ADD is only to generate the CALL... :!:

It is your JOB to BOOK the caller ... :idea:

If your ADD generated 200 call a month... :!: "It did its job" 8)

If you had CLOSED....50% of those calls.. :?:

Your truck would have been BOOKED..for 2 months... :wink:

Ok so what you are saying is it is my job to convince someone with nasty carpets who has family coming in town to use me at a higher price than someone else. I can definetlely do that. I also closed the majority of the calls I got because I had a great sales script. Yes I made a lot of money but I got sick and tired of the constant upsell dealing with price shoppers with the dirtiest carpets. You said if I put in my ad 100 dollar minimum that it would piss all callers off. Really you are saying I will not get very many calls because most people looking in the yellow pages really just want an affordable deal. You just answered my question for me. Thanks. There are way better ways to advertise and promote a cleaning business than to try and compete with every other cleaner in the book. With the yp it is how much do you charge and how soon can you come. There are some exceptions. Harper I do wish I lived in a better place but Memphis is loaded with extremely wealthly people. I just need to focus on getting my name in front of them and I am smart enought to do that without the yp. I have done very professional display ads targeted towards higher end clients and they never work. I wasn't booked out for two months but I was usually booked out atleast a week AlWAYS. Now I have steady work and any new customer is through a referral. If the yp agreed to let me place an ad with my minimum which is 109 and only pay for each call then I would do that if it was legit and not rigged. Anyone with common sense should know they are going to have to atleast pay 100 dollars to get a decent job. I am interested in what your response will be. You are very smart and I appreciate your wisdom and experience.

One more thing. Evertime I got excited about a new well thought out ad coming out the constant price shoppers calling needing one room and hall cleaned brought me back to reality. The largest 20 truck company here STANLEY STEEMER doesn't have an ad in any of the books and haven't for years. Why? They know the books are for price shoppers and there are better ways to advertise.

 

[Royal Man]

Harper,
I'll just say; I guess it's obvious that Wayne didn't design your ad.

 

[joe harper]

RULE # 1....NEVER PRE-JUDGE A SALE.... :!: :!: :!:

RULE # 2....Refer "back" to rule #1....


for example : yesterday the boy's had a minimum...Liv & Hall...$99.00

The lady next door comes over "WALK-UP"...$338.68...We did it right then... :wink:

 

[joe harper]

Just "Pick-in" on you Dave.....

Relax....Enjoy the ride...There is nothing Really serious going on in this Thread... :wink:

 

[daniel@procarpet]

RULE # 1....NEVER PRE-JUDGE A SALE.... :!: :!: :!:

RULE # 2....Refer "back" to rule #1....


for example : yesterday the boy's had a minimum...Liv & Hall...$99.00

The lady next door comes over "WALK-UP"...$338.68...We did it right then... :wink:

Thats great. I am just happier knowing I don't have to pay for an ad that costs in excess of 1500 dollars per month dealing with price shoppers. I like being able to take time off and advertise if I need to. If I could get an ad like yours even just a quarter page ad for 500 a month I would definetely do it and take my chances. I am making more money than ever simply because almost every dollar I make goes to me and not someone else and every month my monthly gross is plus or minus 200 dollars the previous month so I am pretty consistent. I like the whole concept with fliers and plan on using them in creative ways to get quality customers. I can target customers and areas I want to work in and stop and start when I want. You never did answer my initial question. What are your thoughts on pay for performance. I guess the sales reps have been hearing a lot of "Why should I place an ad in your book when you let companies advertise 5 rooms, hall, sofa and loveseat for 99 dollars?" They responded to me "place a high minimum and that will let people know you charge more and you will only have to pay for each lead or call you get and not have to pay for an ad that doesn't get results."

 

[Royal Man]

Live by price, die by price I always say.

Direct the the client pick your company by something other that price.

What's your USP?

 

[joe harper]

daniel,

There is no way to MONITOR ...the results in the Y-P format...They can & will
put a "tracker #" on calls to a "dummy #"....that will be Call-Fowarded to your #.

This will tell you how many calls you got from your ADD...But they have NO way
to know if you were able to DO the job...!

There is NO "pay per click" in the Y-Page world...

 

[daniel@procarpet]

daniel,

There is no way to MONITOR ...the results in the Y-P format...They can & will
put a "tracker #" on calls to a "dummy #"....that will be Call-Fowarded to your #.

This will tell you how many calls you got from your ADD...But they have NO way
to know if you were able to DO the job...!

There is NO "pay per click" in the Y-Page world...

Yea something sounds fishy to me as well. I wonder if they pay people to monitor your ads performance and call just to meet their minimum guaranteed call volume?

 

[joe harper]

Nothing fishey...

1st they Don't guarentee a minimum amount of calls...

You could have designed a "shitty ad"....and nobody calls..

Simple Process: They set up a RCF line (remote call forward line)...

So everytime someone calls the # in your add...It is fowarded to your #

There is no-charge for the RCF line...

BUT...You are NOW advertising a #...that you do NOT own....


They do this for Guy's like you..!!! "Sceptics"
So if you DEMAND PROOF....they will give you PROOF...!

Kind-a-like a ...S.O.B. bag from a mechanic.... :wink: