Are any of our TM manufacturers "Union shops"?

[harryhides]

Just curious.

I have not seen or read a better synopsis of everything that is wrong in our financial and manufacturing system ie the current disease that is afflicting the North American "worker'.
This was written by the President of Knox Machinery in Franklin Ohio.

http://prideofamerica.wordpress.com...achinery-criticizes-gm-president-for-bailout/

Whaddya think, is he right or wrong ?

 

[Sticky]

I know HYM is not...I don't think any of them are...that I know of...

 

[Dolly Llama]

at the same time that our factories have been filled with the worlds most overpaid, arrogant, ignorant and laziest entitlement minded “laborers”

Obviously Mr Knox doesn't know many union rail road or union miners.....


..L.T.A.

 

[rhyde]

There’s little money in small manufacturing unions target industries with large business interests where they can milk good money.

 

[DRScrivner]

I grew up in Colorado. My uncle, his son (my cousin) and both my grandfathers worked at the C F & I Steel Mill. Hell even one of my grandma's worked there for a while back in the 50's or 60's for a few years too. One of my grandfathers lost a leg when it got run over by an ore cart on the tracks.

Back in the 50's, and 60's the mill treated them all VERY well. Pretty decent pay and job security. In the 70's after my living grandfather retired all that stayed at the mill was my uncle.

I watched as a teenager as he went from a VERY HIGH amount of pay (I was told over $60 an hour- in the 70's- he was a HIGH RISK welder on the smoke stacks) down to taking less then $10 an hour and keeping his job due to his 30+ years on the job.

The ONLY reason he survived financially. When times were good he took the lessons he learned from his father, who had lived through the depression working a cotton farm, and invested very wisely.

This all happened because the American Steel Industry (just like todays banks and auto industries) were greedy and power hungry and lived for today- not looking toward tomorrow.

Like a runner in a race they looked over their shoulder as Japense Steel came up behind them. And they laughed over their shoulder at Japanese Steel.

As they were side by side American Steel just kept grinning and moved along at the same pace- not making strides to get back in front of Japanese Steel.

As American Steel kept moving at the same pace they watched Japense Steel surpass them. All the while American Steel thinking "this is America, nobody can do steel better then we can."- Yeah when GREAT leaders like Carnegie and Schaub were in the front VERY TRUE, but they were LONG GONE!

As Japenese Steel went around the bend and passed out of sight, it then became a bury their head in sand proposition becasue they were "The Old Dogs" and long term they would win in the long run, because it was meant to be.

When American Steel came to the finish line they were actually stunned to see that Japanese Steel had beaten them, even though they watched it all happen right in front of their eyes.

IMO- Unions HAD a place in this country at one time- when workers were worked and paid unfairly they kicked some ass for the Average Joe. Then over the years it all turned against themselves......Kinda like the CRI/SOA.

There are Federal, State and Local laws to protect ALL workers these days.

Personally I have no use for unions. Others may and that is A-OK by me, but I would NEVER join one, I saw the LONG-TERM ramifications first hand.

 

[Greenie]

When American Steel came to the finish line they were actually stunned to see that Japanese Steel had beaten them, even though they watched it all happen right in front of their eyes.

IMO- Unions HAD a place in this country at one time- when workers were worked and paid unfairly they kicked some ass for the Average Joe. Then over the years it all turned against themselves......Kinda like the CRI/SOA.

Very good post Del!

After watching some shows on China and it's mining progress, we are 5-10 years from China totally dominating the steel market with cheap labor and a sharper pencil.

 

[Art Kelley]

Thank God there is 1.3 billion Chinese to replace those 200.

 

[DRScrivner]

Now see that is what a Union is for right there.

But when the job is done, the job is done. Don't make up crap and be petty to justify your existance and make a buck.

 

[SRI Cleaning]

I totally agree with Dell's post. Unions had their place but are not beneficial today. Between salary, taxes, pensions and other costs, GM winds up paying their employees $71+ dollars an hour. Even for people who are putting the damn stickers on the cars! How can they possible afford to do that? Imagine if we had to pay our new hires even $45 an hour?! None of us would be able to stay afloat.

 

[Walt]

I totally agree with Dell's post. Unions had their place but are not beneficial today. Between salary, taxes, pensions and other costs, GM winds up paying their employees $71+ dollars an hour. Even for people who are putting the damn stickers on the cars! How can they possible afford to do that? Imagine if we had to pay our new hires even $45 an hour?! None of us would be able to stay afloat.

Interesting how people are offended by 71 bucks an hour (which includes the benefits). How much do you make per hour - including benefits? How about the president of GM - how much does he make?

I agree that the union model is a dated one. But returning to the days of cheap and oppressed labor is not the answer. Least we forget the mistakes made in the past.

 

[DRScrivner]

Honestly, MOST of the time I don't make my $100 an hour goal. And I don't have health insurance. So $71 and hour- including bennies is better (finacially) then I am currently doing. BUT I am happy cleaning carpet so that is MY decision.

Do I make more per hour then at my last crappy job at the Water Department- Heck Ya (when I am busy).

My point is that the unions went WAAAAAAAAY past the stage of defending the American Worker to fleecing their own pockets, and pushing so that it became a situation where all the workers were paid better then they should be- just like Anthony said. Sorta like everyone is a well paid Communist.

As an owner, I should get paid more per hour. I have ALOT of costs that an employee does not have and I have taken risks that an employee does not. And I have alot of equipment that an employee has not had to invest in.

I am not saying cheap oppressed labor is the answer either- NOT AT ALL. Somebody should protect the Chinese miners. But when guys are making $50,000+ a year (plus bennies) to do menial labor it adds up and we as American Industy in general have gotten fat and lazy and developed an attitude of deservence. We are now starting to pay the price.

So I say let's remember BOTH what it was like BEFORE the unions, DURING the reign of the unions go forward and kick some serious ass- like the UNITED SATES of AMERICA should be doing!

 

[CapeCleaner]

I believe unions do still have a place when it comes to protecting workers...whether it's safety or pay and benefits issues. However, too many unions/union officials go too far, literally holding businesses hostage and the UAW is probably the worst of all of them.

I for one was not in favor of bailing out the Big 3. Being forced to reorganize under bankruptcy would not have been a bad thing.

By the way,

How about the president of GM - how much does he make?

In 2007 Rick Wagoner, GM CEO, made $5,032/hr for a 60 hr week; $4,313/hr for a 70 hr week. Not too shabby for running a company into the ground.

 

[harryhides]

I always knew that Del had his head screwed on straight.

 

[DRScrivner]

Thank you Tony.

I am a very small fish in a medium sized pond, but I can be vocal at times.

 

[R W]

I was a UAW member for 31 years. I've got a nice pension (so far), and the decent wages helped me raise a family of 6 kids. For those that critise that UAW for the high wages, you obviously have never worked in or on an assembly line running at full speed, with no breakdowns. Of course, the older senority guys got the good jobs, and the new hires had the grunt jobs. A mid-August day on the line would be your worst resturant cleaning job, times 8 or 10 hours.....what ever GM wanted to run for the day. Imagine stroking that wand for 35 seconds, walking to the next area in 5-10 seconds, and starting over....and over......and over, with no break for hours. If you couldn't handle it, out the door you went. The average line production worker earner his pay of the day.

Now......my biggest complaint was the "skilled trades"...electricians, millrights, pipefitters.....these guys made the most pay, worked 80 plus hours a week, and for the most part, did very little. There were good workers, but most were bums.....milking the system. Now we have to pay the price. I personally hope that their jobs are subbed out to outside contractors.....that would save the auto companies $$$$$$.

As for TM manufacturers....I would think that most shops are small. They don't produce 1000's of units a day, like we did in our prime. Most of their workers have to be multi-talented to go from assembly to painting to wiring, or one employee, or a team, might stay with and assemble one unit at a time. That's how small job shops operate. I would doubt that they would be Unionized.

Or not.

 

[Walt]

Honestly, MOST of the time I don't make my $100 an hour goal. And I don't have health insurance. So $71 and hour- including bennies is better (finacially) then I am currently doing. BUT I am happy cleaning carpet so that is MY decision.

Do I make more per hour then at my last crappy job at the Water Department- Heck Ya (when I am busy).

My point is that the unions went WAAAAAAAAY past the stage of defending the American Worker to fleecing their own pockets, and pushing so that it became a situation where all the workers were paid better then they should be- just like Anthony said. Sorta like everyone is a well paid Communist.

As an owner, I should get paid more per hour. I have ALOT of costs that an employee does not have and I have taken risks that an employee does not. And I have alot of equipment that an employee has not had to invest in.

I am not saying cheap oppressed labor is the answer either- NOT AT ALL. Somebody should protect the Chinese miners. But when guys are making $50,000+ a year (plus bennies) to do menial labor it adds up and we as American Industy in general have gotten fat and lazy and developed an attitude of deservence. We are now starting to pay the price.

So I say let's remember BOTH what it was like BEFORE the unions, DURING the reign of the unions go forward and kick some serious ass- like the UNITED SATES of AMERICA should be doing!

You've made some good points - I think most of us are on the same page. But would like to point out that many people believe that carpet cleaning is menial labor. And that 50k a year isn't what it used to be. The real problem may be one of entitlement on every level. The head guy thinks its fine if he makes 7 million a year and takes huge vacations. The worker thinks its great to make double over time but call in sick on his regular work days to go fishing. The pride of workmanship and diligence seem to be a thing of the past.

Here is an example that makes me sad. I know someone who works for the union. She makes 26 an hour plus amazing benefits. Every holiday plus sick days, vacation etc. I know personally that she calls in sick at least 6 times a month. She always has a note from the doctor. She also has had extended time off with pay. Then come a holiday, she will volunteer to work and then makes double time. Then she will call in sick and then take her vacation to extend it because she can't take the stress. It's really some thing. All of this is protected by the union. She has figured out how to use the system. And she seems to encourage it others around her. She honestly feels she is deserves it.

 

[DRScrivner]

Honestly, MOST of the time I don't make my $100 an hour goal. And I don't have health insurance. So $71 and hour- including bennies is better (finacially) then I am currently doing. BUT I am happy cleaning carpet so that is MY decision.

Do I make more per hour then at my last crappy job at the Water Department- Heck Ya (when I am busy).

My point is that the unions went WAAAAAAAAY past the stage of defending the American Worker to fleecing their own pockets, and pushing so that it became a situation where all the workers were paid better then they should be- just like Anthony said. Sorta like everyone is a well paid Communist.

As an owner, I should get paid more per hour. I have ALOT of costs that an employee does not have and I have taken risks that an employee does not. And I have alot of equipment that an employee has not had to invest in.

I am not saying cheap oppressed labor is the answer either- NOT AT ALL. Somebody should protect the Chinese miners. But when guys are making $50,000+ a year (plus bennies) to do menial labor it adds up and we as American Industy in general have gotten fat and lazy and developed an attitude of deservence. We are now starting to pay the price.

So I say let's remember BOTH what it was like BEFORE the unions, DURING the reign of the unions go forward and kick some serious ass- like the UNITED SATES of AMERICA should be doing!

You've made some good points - I think most of us are on the same page. But would like to point out that many people believe that carpet cleaning is menial labor. And that 50k a year isn't what it used to be. The real problem may be one of entitlement on every level. The head guy thinks its fine if he makes 7 million a year and takes huge vacations. The worker thinks its great to make double over time but call in sick on his regular work days to go fishing. The pride of workmanship and diligence seem to be a thing of the past.

Here is an example that makes me sad. I know someone who works for the union. She makes 26 an hour plus amazing benefits. Every holiday plus sick days, vacation etc. I know personally that she calls in sick at least 6 times a month. She always has a note from the doctor. She also has had extended time off with pay. Then come a holiday, she will volunteer to work and then makes double time. Then she will call in sick and then take her vacation to extend it because she can't take the stress. It's really some thing. All of this is protected by the union. She has figured out how to use the system. And she seems to encourage it others around her. She honestly feels she is deserves it.

Two things:
1) Entitlement was the damn word I was looking for when I wrote deservence- good one!
2) Exactly Walt.

OK 3 things...
3) This kind of crap is why I left government work. I was hurt on the job, attended doctors appointments and physical therapy during work hours as instructed. BUT I still had work assigned to me and I would complete 80-90% of a days work EVEN though I was hurt and misssing time at the doctors visits.

I refused to take Light Duty status and do what I could. On the other hand out of 15 total workers 3 were on Light Duty for WELL over 3 months straight and didn't due crap all day long.

They never gave the guys on Light Duty a hard time. They were afraid that they would claim a "Hostile Work Envirnment" and complain. So they did piddly "stay busy work", causing the other 11 guys, and 1 girl to carry the slack.

When I completed 80-90% of a days work + being hurt + doctor's visits do you think the boss could say- "Hey thanks I know you are hurt and doing the best you can to be a team player". HELL NO I get: "It's amazing that you cannot finish a days work" (YELLING)- in front of other employees.

I turned in my resignation the next morning and went from part time carpet cleaner to full time 2 weeks later and am MUCH happier now!!!!!!!!!!

So we are all pretty much on the same page.

 

[KevinL]

I would think the auto workers are very comparable to the UAW guys that work at Caterpillar around here. I have been in many of the plants working for other companies and I've seen some guys working hard but most are moving as slow as molasses.
I worked for a contract company at Cat back in the eighties during a strike and management was made to work in the shops and they moved like snails and told me and another guy to slow down. I was burned by the UFCW when I worked at a grocery store when I was younger. I hate unions.

 

[Dolly Llama]

I was a UAW auto worker for 13 years.
to blame the union on the Big Three's ills is missing the whole picture

the fault of the UAW is their persistence to protect lazy azzes .

the fault of the Big Three is a management problem, not the union


..L.T.A.

 

[DRScrivner]

I was a UAW auto worker for 13 years.
to blame the union on the Big Three's ills is missing the whole picture

the fault of the UAW is their persistence to protect lazy azzes .

the fault of the Big Three is a management problem, not the union


..L.T.A.

TRUE...they are not the only issue, one of many, many issues.

 

[cu]

history teaches that history teaches nothing at all
Rome fell after it got fat and thought nothing could stop them
the british empire fall after they got fat , by the end of ww 1 england was broke.

America rose to be the gaint along with the U.S.S.R
Which the u.s won against in the 80,s
over the last the last 50 years the u.s has got fat and lost sight of what made it great. which was not greed
now it,s the turn of the far east
either china or india will take the lead roll in world business and the u.s. will be left woundering what happend
Unless it takes major steps to change it's way of thinking and way of doing business on the world stage