Are TM's too complicated?

[DevilThomas]

It seems to me that you need:

A vac...this can be accomplished in a couple of ways...for big vac... a motor, a blower, a small generator...in one module.

Pressure...0-1200psi adjustable warm water 180 degree electric pump...gives you 140 degree water for 1200psi tile work.

Heat....lil giant #3 or #4

Waste Tank...rotomolded plastic

No complicated heat exchange systems, mix boxes, sensors, etc....

4 simple modular components...what am I missing here?

 

[daniel@procarpet]

It seems to me that you need:

A vac...this can be accomplished in a couple of ways...for big vac... a motor, a blower, a small generator...in one module.

Pressure...0-1200psi adjustable warm water 180 degree electric pump...gives you 140 degree water for 1200psi tile work.

Heat....lil giant #3 or #4

Waste Tank...rotomolded plastic

No complicated heat exchange systems, mix boxes, sensors, etc....

4 simple modular components...what am I missing here?

To answer your question yes they are. I asked a prochem rep why they needed the sensors, computers, and complicated EFI and his response was to keep it compliant with epa regulations. On smaller machines it is not needed, but larger machines over 1000 cc need to be regulated to make sure they are compliant. So you can't just take a 50 hp motor, blower, heater, and pump and go clean carpet atleast not legally in some states.

 

[Bob Foster]

Some call what constitutes most modern truckmounts as progress and I completely disagree.

In a nutshell, a truckmount is nothing more than a motor that drives a PD blower and a pressure washer attached to a water supply that is heated somehow and a waste tank.

The bells and whistles hung on TMs are the things that often negatively effect their price, cost of operation, ease of maintenance, self serviceability, reliability, longevity and cleaning performance. While others will disagree with me this is my opinion based on first hand experience.

I believe that there is a sea change of attitude where many more people have, by their own experience, come to believe that a TM does not have to be complicated to be a top performer on all criteria. Regrettably there are not too many manufacturers that deliver this to us.

Many new base engines that have well matched power characteristics meet the new EPA requirements (such as the new Kohler) and they in themselves have not been made more complicated in order to meet this compliance.

 

[Greenie]

The question is:

Do you need a 50hp motor to clean carpet?

Sometimes, Less is More.

 

[renegade_cowboy]

It seems to me that you need:

A vac...this can be accomplished in a couple of ways...for big vac... a motor, a blower, a small generator...in one module.

Pressure...0-1200psi adjustable warm water 180 degree electric pump...gives you 140 degree water for 1200psi tile work.

Heat....lil giant #3 or #4

Waste Tank...rotomolded plastic

No complicated heat exchange systems, mix boxes, sensors, etc....

4 simple modular components...what am I missing here?

Ryans TM giving you problems?

I agree there are alot of bells and whistles on these newer TM. Maybe to help drive up price or try and be different from the competitors.

My TM is a very simple design. I love it and actually putting the engine, blower and pump on a newer, lighter frame. Was going to dump the waste tank I have now and get the Mytee triple tube one.

 

[Shawn Forsythe]

I think the variety is evidence you will never find a consensus on just what this industry needs.

Simplicity is the goal of just about all of them. However, many people asked, nay demanded, equipment that would take advantage of the so-called "free heat" that is being expended by the engines and blowers.

The complexity of TM designs was the result of attempts to maximize the heat potential of heat exchanger type truck-mounts. All along though, once you reach a heat goal, then the priority turns to simplifying the design to reduce costs of production and to the end user in maintenance and repair.

There are some really good heat exchanger designs out there, all being the result of all the prior work that went into them with the versions that preceded them. But to many, the old time simplicity of burning a secondary fuel will likely be with us for some time.

For every user, there is a favorite, and for every group the preferred example. That's what keeps it interesting for the supplier and distributor who serves them all.

 

[rwcarpet]

I'd say that the complexity of the bigger TM's is so that any dummy can operate them without blowing up the neighborhood. Most cleaners with the simpler TM's have experience and have been cleaning for a while. They know what to do if something goes wrong and overheats (at least most do). How complicated are the SS'ers TM's? They've got new people running those trucks all the time. They need a TM that can be self-running and not cause problems in the field, at least when they are new.

My Genesis is a handful, but I'm so used to keeping it running that I can cope with any problems that show up during cleaning. The Genesis is not overly complicated, but it's got a few miles of wiring and a few saftey features that can cause headaches if they poop out.

 

[Todd Anthony]

It seems to me that you need:

A vac...this can be accomplished in a couple of ways...for big vac... a motor, a blower, a small generator...in one module.

Pressure...0-1200psi adjustable warm water 180 degree electric pump...gives you 140 degree water for 1200psi tile work.

Heat....lil giant #3 or #4

Waste Tank...rotomolded plastic

No complicated heat exchange systems, mix boxes, sensors, etc....

4 simple modular components...what am I missing here?

I think that you have described the SAVAGE TM. His has a pump out instead of the rotomolded tank. And a big a$$ heater.

 

[Guest]

A 13/ 33 in most cases can get the job done , however I prefer the slide in units because I can train an new employee in a matter of a few days how to properly operate it.

 

[bob vawter]

A 13/ 33 in most cases can get the job done , however I prefer the slide in units because I can train an new employee in a matter of a few days how to properly operate it.

coop...yous on the big dawg porch now....that 13/33 shit ain't gonna cut it!
what are you sellin' now?

PLUS you BANNED me already...you big dumb ignurt hillbiLLY!

 

[DevilThomas]

Does anyone make a motor, blower, waste tank only unit...?

 

[Shawn Forsythe]

Hydramaster makes the Boxxer H2O
BlueLine the Super Extraction System
Sapphire Scientific, the Big Gulp
to name a few....

 

[DevilThomas]

Does anyone make a motor, blower, waste tank only unit...?

http://www.tcsatl.com/flood.html
http://www.acceleratedtruckmounts.com/F ... terMax.htm

Hydramaster makes the Boxxer H2O
BlueLine the Super Extraction System
Sapphire Scientific, the Big Gulp
to name a few....
Hydramaster makes the Boxxer H2O
BlueLine the Super Extraction System
Sapphire Scientific, the Big Gulp
to name a few....

Now thats what I am talking about...probably do not need something as large as those for the average carpet cleaning ...but that is the Idea...add a small generator to the setup... 1... 110v 20a outlet... or run a cord and you could...

For pressure ...http://www.pressurewashersdirect.co...le&utm_source=froogle&utm_medium=shop+portals

Comes with 5 year commercial warranty on pump

Connected to on site hot water ...less than 180 degrees..at 1450 psi... to do tile work.

Turned down to less than 600psi connected to cold water then run through lil giant #3 or #4 for carpet cleaning.

Heat ...LiL Giant #3 or #4

Simple...kick ass vac, great adjustable pressure, scorching heat.

In cold weather just take the 68lb pump inside at night.

The pump and heat can be had for about $2000
Wonder what they would charge for a 18hp motor, #3 blower 11hg, and 50gal waste tank with continuous pumpout option...only system.

 

[Greenie]

to be fair....at some point we would like to display a professional unit, not somethign that looks like a garage sale, so for that alone, maybe paying a few extra bucks for a "nice" package might be worth the overall expense, especially when expensed out over say.. 5 years.

 

[DevilThomas]

that actually seems more complicated to me.........


no reason the engine shouldn't power the pump
heat exchangers aren't complicated....trying to get every btu of waste heat possible is

The simplest system would have a "moderately" efficient heat exchanger either using some exhaust/blower (not restricted) heat or the waste from the cooling system to provide a moderate heat boost. Then scorching heat provided by another fuel.

or simply the heater alone adjusted to desired temps.............of course this increases fuel usage


the real complications come in with the fail-safe parts, milking the heat, using ec engines*, and trying to remain compact imo

*nothing wrong with electronically controlled engines except the average dipshit can't diagnose problems.........its not that it is complicated

I see your point...but an easily replacable modular pump that you can easily protect from freezing has some appeal...at least to me.

Heat exchanger systems offtimes require water feedback loops and mix boxes...more to freeze or leak...and sensors that can stop the whole show if bad.

I agree that a large part of the problem is in the failsafe and squeezing the engine and blower btu's...I would eagerly trade those waste btu's for more simplicity and reliability.

 

[DevilThomas]

Hey Greenie...if you are only running a blower...could a 18hp motor run a blower larger than #3? If so, how much larger?

 

[Jack Zipper Zerkie]

Had a few over the years. I like slide in models. First was a white magic water cooled, because of the heat way south Florida. Really poor engine problems. Then a
Hydramaster 470D water cooled also heat problems, it was down so much that they exchanged it for another unit. They were trying. The second was a total rebuild so thy say. I do all of the required maint. or had it done at the local dealer. They changed the carb, the cat, converter modified the blower and fluid changes. All of the things I couldn,t get to because of the limited space due to the cages. So then I wanted a Judson water cooled, but things are tight and I don,t know how many years I have left. I didn,t want propane. So I purchased Larry Cobbs cheapest unit he sells. The unit is the best investment I,ve made for a long time. It sets wide open nothing in a cage . The only change Iv,e made was the air cooled is a little noisy, so went to local muffler shop and for $200 it,s really quiet. Yes simple and very basic is what it,s all about jack z.

 

[Duane Oxley]

Does anyone make a motor, blower, waste tank only unit...?

We do.

And an 18 can run up to a 45 blower. It runs one better if the blower is slightly under- driven for less load on the engine, though.

It runs a 36 well, though.

 

[Bob Savage]

Thomas, we make all you are asking for. If you are looking for simple, this is about as simple as it gets.

A separate pressure pump, and a choice of 3 different ones - 60-600 PSI, 60-500 PSI High Flow, 60-1200 PSI 3.5 GPM.

The 2 smaller ones weigh only 22 lbs., and can go anywhere:

Then there's the 60-1200 PSI unit, which is also easily placed anywhere:

The separate vacuum unit, with 30 GPM APO, can also go anywhere easily, as it weighs in at 42 lbs, and sits in a base which is mounted to the van floor. This vacuum unit will also keep up with extracting flooded carpet as in a water intrusion, because of the 30 GPM APO. The APO uses a standard garden hose for discharge:

The heater will easily out-perform the Little Giant, as far as heat produced, and as far as maintenance, because our heater is virtually maintenance free.

Neither of the 2 SAVAGE LP heaters that we use for carpet cleaning have ever been out of the van in several years for any maintenance.

Then there is the feature of not having to ever light the pilot (it comes on automatically), nor do you need to turn it off (automatic again). These heaters are built to last for years of constant use, with their sch 80 black pipe coils.

With either of the 600 PSI pressure pumps that we offer, the entire system (vacuum, pressure pump, 30 GPM APO, and LP heater) will run from a single 15 amp 110V circuit!

Yes, it is very simple and very compact, but don't let it's compact footprint fool you. It will keep up with the BIG BOYS, even being able to dual wand by adding a second vacuum system, and using the 60-1200 PSI pressure pump (3 -15 amp circuits for that).

All parts are readily available, and sold to you at my cost, as I am not in the parts business to make a profit.

 

[Chris A]

I don't think most TM's are over complicated, no. I like the idea of turning a key and having a unit give me vacuum, pressure, and heat without having to do anything else. Most have major electrical problems with their machines when they close them up in a van or pile shit around them and they overheat...

 

[Nate The Great]

Then there's the 60-1200 PSI unit, which is also easily placed anywhere:

PM sent Bob.

 

[hogjowl]

I want one where you don't have to remember to turn the key.

 

[Lee Stockwell]

No key Martin, just use a screwdriver...