are you setting air srubbers on every job??

[packfancjh]

Sorry man, your team is still going to suck this year!

 

[Desk Jockey]

John
You're still twisting it, re read the thread, I said we use them but they refuse payment on us. Some how you've made it into I'm telling people don't follow the Standards, I've never said that.

My advice to you, if you can't give them real world experiences is don't give advice.

Class room time is just that, it's not the real world!

The real world is has no absolutes it's gray!

It is also aery BAD IDEA for the moderator of this forum advocating as much.

You're right, Mike, take me off as moderator and replace me with Steve G.

Then I don't have to hold back and I can tell you how I really feel! :shock:

 

[Mikey P]

I think this was Connor posting as Chavez again..

 

[steve g]

I have been setting air scrubbers more and more, I did a job for some older people that had state farm, they had some areas that had some mold on the drywall, so we just cut it out, small area it was wet, this is pretty typical I would say half of my jobs have at least a small area with mold, so with this and the people being old I felt it really needed the air scrubber, now if I go and tell the insurance adjuster well you see they had a bit of mold we took out from a pre existing damage, that will get my scrubber charge denied for sure. on this one I delt with a desk adjuster out of colorado, we played phone tag leaving messages, he left me a message asking why we had an air scrubber and wondered if it was cat 3 water or something. I messaged back and said the IICRC standards require it to be set on all jobs, he replied back and said something to the effect of he knows about IICRC standards and all but essentially they where not that big of a deal. finally I just told him it was cat 2 water that had been sitting a day or two, which was true. and it got paid on that one. another one I got by saying that the people where hyper sensitive health wise, which they where. I think craig has a point if someone is sensitive to health issues, if you approach it from this angle you stand a better chance of coverage.

 

[John Olson]

Chavez don't get mad. That's the end of the debate when you get angry.

I'll make this pefectly clear since subtlety didn't work. If you end up in court the scum sucking bottom feeding lawers ar going to find everything the can to take everything yo got. It may notmseem ke a big deal to thumb your nose at the standards and call it just a book and post you are willing to break the rules for a buck,friend or adjuster. So if yo willin to do that what else would you do? This is called the slippery slope and brother your on it head first. A half assed lawyer will come to court with every st you ever made on any message board that could bring doubt as to your decision making.
Thus is why I said this is not just a bb. Something major happens lawyers and reporters will be all over the boards trust me i'm involved in a sport thzt people die and reporters and lawyers are all over our community board.

I enjoy a good debate
and haven't taken anything personal I think we want the same thing and possibly agree more then you think but that not available for public record

 

[Desk Jockey]

I don't get mad, there are 4-of us brothers and if we're not arguing it ain't family. I was just beginning to enjoy it! :mrgreen:

We've in this business 42 years this winter and we've yet to be involved in a lawsuit.

It's not luck that's kept us out of it, it's making smart business decisions and limiting risk as much as possible.

Slippery slope, tsss you don't know me or my family or you'd know how ridiculous that statement is, but it's no biggie, you'll only trying to help.

 

[Craig Lindquist]

John,
One question...
How many instances have you set an airscrubber on a job and were intially denied payment but were able to ascertain payment by quoting the standard?

Richard is out there every day down in the trenches not behind a desk or a screen, are you? Or, are you just quoting text book scenarios?

Please reference some of your restoration projects.

 

[packfancjh]

I've heard of Ostriches sticking thier heads in the dirt but Richard what in gods name are you doing sticking your ding-a-ling in the ground! Don't you have a wife? Distributors may not have all of the hands on experience needed to understand what goes on in the trenches but when we have a customer come in and ask us the proper way do to a water damage job it is our obligation to follow the standard so they understand the "legal" way of doing it. Once they get thier feet wet then it is thier discretion on whether they want to go by the book or not. If we just tell them to fly by the seat of thier pants that could get us in trouble as well. I fully understand where John is coming from on this issue. When those customers build the relationships with thier adjusters then it is up to them on what they will or won't charge for but at least we gave the the "ammunition" to go after those fees for scrubbers among other things.

 

[Rex Tyus]

It is still an unregulated industry. There is no "legal" way to do it. There may be a right way and a wrong way. But there is no "legal" way. That is why they don't HAVE to pay for the damn thing. I only do cat 1 class 1 simple stuff for existing customers so I am certainly no authority. But let us not forget it is still an unregulated industry. There is no State Code Or State board to answer to. You can not make anyone pay for it. They make the decision whether or not to accept the risk of not utilizing every imaginable precaution.

 

[Craig Lindquist]

Rex,
You started a topic for a new thread!

 

[WISE]

While we have been very successful at getting paid for air scrubbers on every job I have put them on....about 8 out of 10 losses;

I will have to agree with Richard on the FACT that following the standards set forth in the S500 does not mean you will get paid for it. The only weapon we have found to combat this is to do the following:

When an adjuster says they "ain't paying for that" I go this route:

I understand your position, however, I am certain the homeowners policy, or contract with your company, provides coverage for the proper mitigation and repair for this loss; and by proper I mean by the ANSI Industry Standard S-500. I have a copy in the truck if you would like I can show you the passage that applies to this. If you still decline coverage or payment for this, then I will need you to sign a waiver and hold harmless agreement which basically states that you personally and XYZ Ins. co declined the recommendations by my company and the S500 and agree to hold us harmless and for you and your employer to accept responsibility for any problem arising from this going forward.

And even that doesn't always work.

I had blackwater soaked into OSB subfloor and was told "we aren't gonna get into tearing out subfloors son, just spray some bleach on it and seal it with some Kilz." I went into my spiel as above...he laughed, and said he wasn't "signing jackshit, and I ain't paying for subfloor". With that, I looked at my man that was there doing some repairs and said....take this subfloor out now.

We didn't get paid for it. He won.

On THAT part of the deal.


WISE

 

[steve g]

You can not make anyone pay for it.

actually you can, however its not gonna be pretty on what you are gonna have to do, the customer and the insurance will be pissed as all hell.

 

[Desk Jockey]

Man this thing is still going? John wore me out yesterday with all this, and after yesterday all I can say is John is wrong and I'm right! :roll:

But seriously I understand where they are coming from, but I still disagree with it.

If you're selling them a Standard ($125.00 Ouch! We have 4-of them ) and telling them everything they need to know is addressed in this book, but it really isn't going to help you with real life experiences, then who is doing the real disservice????????

To me if you want to help the guy in the field, you need to help him with the real tough decisions. The ones that are not black and white. The ones that are between the lines of the Standard.

If you can't do that, which I understand you can't, then maybe you'll have to leave the giving of advice to those of us that can give real world experience. ???

:|

 

[harryhides]

Standards are a two edged sword - yes they can help you but can also work against you.

Plus, Standards change and on occasion contain errors. For example a hotel in UK with over one million dollars worth of wool carpet was cleaned with a product with a pH within the iicrc Standards proscribed range but damaged the wool carpet nonetheless. The iicrc Standard is different from the Woolsafe Standard which accounts for buffered vs unbuffered products when measuring pH which is not accounted for in the iicrc Standard.

Do you think that the iicrc will be paying for the cleaner's loss on this one ?

I do think that everyone will agree one one thing and that is training both in class and in the field.
Forums like this provide yet another and invaluable asset and that is the free flow of information and debate. The best Instructors are those have actual "in the trenches" experience in the field that they teach. eg: Barry Costa has tons of real experience in carpet installation and repair but not much in Water Damage, so far as I know.
I've known Barry for 16 years and have taken and learned from his carpet repair class twice.

 

[John Olson]

I don't think you where wrong Chavez your brain is just stuck in reverse Put it in drive and move forward.

I want to make this perfectly clear. I DO NOT sell anyone a standard and tell them it contains all the answers. If you think that then sir you have absolutly no Idea who I am. My statements have been clear on what I can or cannot say as a supplier. Chris gets it and for some reason your brain is just not getting it. I will always always always err on the side of caution. IMUST think in worst case scenarios and how to protect my cutomers and their buisness.

I have a very large network of friends so when someone needs "real world" advice I first give them the "right" answer then give them the numbers of the people I trust that are out there every day in the trenches.

You see Chavez the thing is, I know what I write is here for the world to see and can be used against me if one of those worst case scenarios happens. I must protect myself and my friends. It is not my job to tell someone what they "might" be able to get away with. I MUST tell them what they can prove in court.

I also have the responsibillty to help my friends provide the nicer things in life for their famillies. If they are having trouble getting paid for things or are not charging for things or flat out don't know they could be charging then it is my duty to help. Telling them NO WAY, you'll never get paid because in Chavez's area his adjusters won't pay. Well Sir I don't believe in can't,won't,never or forever. Everything is possible even the impossible. You see sir every day i'm alive is a miracle and I have seen the impossible become just an every day occurance

Rex I have to disagre with this statement

It is still an unregulated industry. There is no "legal" way to do it. There may be a right way and a wrong way. But there is no "legal" way.

If you end up in court you will be held to the S500 standard period. You can argue all you want but it is the accepted standard in the industry by ANSI and soon ISO and no matter how much you stomp your feet and jump up and down screaming we are un-regulated and nothing is legal you will be wrong. You do not have to take my word for it call up your lawyer and go play what if with him.

 

[Desk Jockey]

Eassy Francis didn't mean to get you riled again.
Truthfully it's not personal so don't take it that way.

Chris see's it your way because you are both distributors, although maybe he is a visonary...naw he like the Packers without Farve, he doesn't know chit either.

Brain in reverse, yea I've been accused of it, but I won't admit it. Damm we've sunk so low we're taking personal shot's now? Are mother's and wives excluded?

I understand the liability for you guys, so why advise at all, especially if you have liability issues to worry about?

Telling them NO WAY, you'll never get paid because in Chavez's area his adjusters won't pay. Well Sir I don't believe in can't,won't,never or forever. Everything is possible even the impossible. You see sir every day i'm alive is a miracle and I have seen the impossible become just an every day occurrence

I'm not suggesting you say that, but what I would say is be realistic in your expectation 100% paid for, sounds great but I would say it's unrealistic.

I believe it as much as the guy that tells me he sells Scotchguard on every carpet job! :roll:

I'm glad you're alive today....who else would I argue with? :wink:

 

[John Olson]

LMAO I enjoy the verbal sparing and in no way have I taken anything personal. I apologies if my jokes about your brain hurt you feel bads :wink: was just pokin' fun (did you see what my wife posted about me in the bird room?)

I do want you to know there is more of your side that I agree with then you know but I am not gonna post it cuz then what would we have to argue about

 

[packfancjh]

Man what is this world coming to. A guy that supports the Bears is telling me I don't know chit. I think I'm going to go put a bullet it my head!

 

[steve g]

just got an air scrubber covered by state farm infact its use was not even brought up, his main concern is why we needed 21 air movers to dry a whole basement. he said if you need that many just cut out the drywall, I didn't argue as he was paying for it anyways, oh well maybe he would rather pay for drywall and insulation repair, cleanup, repaint etc, and post construction cleanup of all the sanding dust etc. and still have wet studs and framing that are not dried properly. thats just an example of the stuff we have to deal with. man I sure would like to see this adjusters reaction to one of UDK's bills where they set 70 air movers to dry a 2200sq ft basement!!!!

 

[Desk Jockey]

You could set Air Scrubbers up for dust control during the tear out and reconstruction phase, we get paid on 99.99% of those jobs.

 

[Rex Tyus]

John Olson" data-source="" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch">

Rex I have to disagre with this statement

It is still an unregulated industry. There is no "legal" way to do it. There may be a right way and a wrong way. But there is no "legal" way.

If you end up in court you will be held to the S500 standard period. You can argue all you want but it is the accepted standard in the industry by ANSI and soon ISO and no matter how much you stomp your feet and jump up and down screaming we are un-regulated and nothing is legal you will be wrong. You do not have to take my word for it call up your lawyer and go play what if with him.

John you can disagree all you want. You can even jump up and down stomp YOUR feet call me an ignorant redneck and all that. But if you use words like "legal" and "illegal" and end up in court for fraud don't say you were not warned. You guys are confusing accepted practice with regulated. Don't misrepresent what the S500 is. Civil liability and legal liability are COMPLETELY different.

Don't try and get me sucked in to whether to or whether not. I am just saying it is WRONG to use the term "legal" or "illegal" as it concerns the S500. I am aware that failure to follow "accepted" protocal or industry standard can land you in court down the road. That is NOT the premise I was making.

 

[prodrying]

We set air scrubbers on every job and have for years. After having done this for years I usually don't have a problem now.

Kevin Pearson

 

[Desk Jockey]

Hey Kevin,
Good to see you here!

In the beginning did they ever question you? or Have they always just paid it?

 

[J Scott W]

A quote from the introductory material on S500. You can find it under the heading "Importan Definitions."

Ultimately, it is the responsibility of the restorer to verify on a case-by-case basis that application of this Standard and Reference Guide is appropriate.

The possible variations on water damage losses are infinite. The standard allows for the experienced restorer to decide what is proper on each job. When someone does vary from the standard, the restorer should have a valid reason for deciding to do things deifferently. Some day he may be called on to explain something.

Over 28 + years operating my own business, we were sued twice. Once on a water damge loss once a fire loss. We did both jobs according to the standards. #1 was settled by our liability insurance for less than it would cost to defend. #2 the judge said he did not care one bit about the standards. The customer was awarded $8,000. He settled for $2,500, likely knowing that he would lose on appeal.

Scott Warrington

 

[Rex Tyus]

The terms STANDARD AND REFERENCE GUIDE sure ring loud. Doesn't say anything like LAW,ORDINACE, hell even requirement or code. :shock:

Following the "standard" will limit your RISK of a lawsuit. Not make you immune. There is currently NO GOVERNING BODY. At least not in my state. They tried to regulate Mold once but it failed in the state legislation.

ScottW thank you for sharing that. It is more valuable than many can imagine.

 

[Desk Jockey]

Thanks Scott!
It validates most of what I said, the rest was some BS to get John's underwear in a bunch!

 

[steve g]

nice to see you here KP, hope all is well in the lone star state

 

[John Olson]

Ok Scott since we are breaking out the Standards.

Limitations, Complexities, Clmplications and Conflicts (chapter 12 page 212)

"only the owner or the owners agent NOT the restorer or others can impose limitations on the performance of a project"

"Limitations placed on any project that are inconsistent with this standard can result in conflict"


Conflicts

Limitations, complexitites or complications that result in a disagreement between the parties involed about how the restoration project is to be performed are called conflicts. When limitations complexities or complications devolp or are placed on the project by the owner or the owners agent which prevent compliance with this standard, restorers can choose to negotiate an acceptable agreement decline the project, stop work or accept the project with the approproiate releases and disclaimers. Conflict resolutions should be documented in writing and the releases and disclaimers should be reviewed by a qualified attorney.

You chose a line that was really ambigous Scott ,that made it seem the restorer has a right to "choose" they do NOT.

 

[Desk Jockey]

ambigous.....the Standards? :shock:

Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area?
Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area?
Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area?
Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area?
Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area?
Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area?
Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area?
Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area? Grey area?
:mrgreen:

 

[John Olson]

ROFLMAO Chavez. Ok that posts wins


P.S. This has been fun Richard and I have learned somethings from you (not much but some ) I just hope you know that I really care what happens to everyone of you guys out there and want you all to make as much money (and KEEP IT) as you can.