Carpet/Fiber Producers Influence over our Industry

[Jim Pemberton]

How much control do these groups really have over your business?

When I was a teenager, the carpet manufacturers either neglected our industry, or made casual nods toward low moisture systems or franchises. There was not a lack of cooperation between the cleaning industry and the manufacturers of carpet, nor even a dispute. Their was mostly mutual neglect.

The cleaning industry did just fine without them.

Then there was (as a few here might remember) a revolutionary event that occurred in both industries in 1986: The advent of Stain Resistant Nylon.

Right after that, and after a brief romance with a national franchise, Dupont made what appeared to be a concerted effort to reach out to the cleaning industry. The IICRC responded with a special one day "update class" to qualify their registrants to be referred to clean this new carpet fiber.

With that training came all sorts of new recommendations on how we should clean. Some, like a heat requirement (who remembers "no more than 150 degrees", which became "no more than 180 degrees"?) vanished quickly.

Others, like the "Less than 10" pH rule stuck around, though it really didn't reflect the complexity of the pH issue, and the fact that most products in the "safe range" erase stain resistance readily.

And what ever happened in regards to the dark warnings of carpet replacement by cleaners who used "the wrong stuff"?

I don't deny that we've had some good things happen with the "more open" relationship. It has allowed some better mechanisms for a few cleaners to market their services and develop stronger retailer relationships.

But overall, we've labored under too many restrictions for too few benefits. If we believe that the people who make carpet really care about our industry, we are mistaken. We are not their partners in their minds, but a necessary evil at worst, and a naive and splintered group of people that they treat with a kindly paternalism like one might treat a developmentally challenged child who lives next door, at best.

I don't want to feel this way, but you only need read the recent "CRI Rebuttal" to the study done by Debbie Lema regarding SOA testing to see just how little understanding and regard that they have for us.

And you only need to look at where your customer base really comes from to know how little we really need "them".

 

[Mikey P]

To prove this, go into every flooring retailer in town and ask them about the rules and regulations concerning cleaning of all the different fiber types they have on sale.

 

[Lee Stockwell]

No offense to my friend Ira Wagner and Rug Doctor, but the CRI did their own industry no favors by their short-sighted approach to certifying products and procedures to service their products.

 

[Jim Pemberton]

Mr Wagner deserves all the credit in the world for getting his product listed so highly.

Its the CRI that should be embarrassed.

 

[Shawn Forsythe]

Here's what I will find most curious.....

Will we actually experience a plethora of post/2008-installed residential mill claims denied using "improper maintenance" as the primary reason, where carpet has not been cleaned by IICRC certified firms using CRI approved equipment and chemicals?

If that happens, we'll see fireworks like none ever seen.

 

[Hoody]

Isn't that against the Fair Trade Act anyways ?

 

[The Great Oz]

It's all in the politics of the organization. The CRI has a program that's bringing in cash, so they need to defend it. Reputations and wallets are at stake! I'm not sure they understand that they could adjust the program and keep their integrity, and maybe short-term cash losses would be offset by long-term gains in credibility and acceptance.

I can't quote the man, but I can tell you there is a least one very well respected person working for a rug mill that thinks the Rug Doctor certification damages the credibility of the CRI program. I would guess that there are others in the CRI membership that feel the same, but like most associations members they don't pay much attention if it doesn't affect them directly.

 

[Lee Stockwell]

Magnuson-Moss.

 

[Desk Jockey]

If we believe that the people who make carpet really care about our industry, we are mistaken. We are not their partners in their minds, but a necessary evil at worst, and a naive and splintered group of people that they treat with a kindly paternalism like one might treat a developmentally challenged child who lives next door, at best.

Sad statement but I'm sure that's truly how they feel.

 

[Jim Pemberton]

Richard, I cleaned up my concluding comments from some more pungent things that I wanted to say.

Bryan, I think that the Rug Doctor issue created their biggest black eye, and that the way they've attempted to defend it has just cost them credibility at every turn.

In the time since, its given people enough time to dig deeper and see all of the other flaws of their testing and the entire program.

Its not uncommon for corporate American to dig its hills in and stick to a losing proposition. That's their problem. But when it affects the cleaners who care enough to study their craft with reading, research on line, and class attendance, it ends up punishing the conscientious.

I have just finally lost my patience with the entire issue of "we're from the carpet manufacturing industry, and you are our friends" approach.

That smile "they" put on in their public discourses is as insincere as the smile a vet gives a cat before he neuters it.

 

[Desk Jockey]

That smile "they" put on in their public discourses is as insincere as the smile a vet gives a cat before he neuters it.

:mrgreen:

I agree in fact I say punish them with their blunders every chance we get until we earn a little respect. That might wipe away the condescending smile from their faces.

The internet can be a powerful tool for change, if used correctly.

 

[Lee Stockwell]

A bit of punishment is due the other entities in our industry who have betrayed us.

Media who breathlessly solicit the CRI point of view to the point of being accomplices in their deception with an eye to advertising profits are first on my list.

 

[Jim Pemberton]

I see I'm not the only one feeling angry today Lee.

On one hand, it really doesn't affect us too much. Cleaners with a strong sense of self as well as a strong customer base can ignore a lot of this. But all you need is one strong retailer relationship that hinges on the SOA, at least from a PR point of view, to make you have adjust to their way of doing things.

And, bottom line, its simply not right.

 

[Desk Jockey]

But all you need is one strong retailer relationship that hinges on the SOA, at least from a PR point of view, to make you have adjust to their way of doing things.

I hadn't even thought about that. That could be a real problem if they buy into the SOA blunder. :x

 

[LisaWagnerCRS]

The one big advantage we have is that this big corporate clown is horrible at marketing with any impact ("Carpet... it just feels good" - millions later, no mark at all on sales), and apparently equally as horrible at creating an effective testing system for sucking up dirt out of carpet.

You would think they would be awesome at sucking, based on their past performance.

The weakness OUR industry has is a complete lack of one unified voice. The IICRC is polluted (sorry Jim and Tony - you are the only clean spots in that room), the trade associations have been dying for ages, the media readership is on the downslide, and the forums are disjointed - where educated cleaners and idiotic cleaners get to voice their opinions equally.

That said... I have yet to see any "professional" cleaner here, or any other place, stand up and say "you know what, this SOA program is really solid and what is best for the consumer."

So perhaps we could actually get cleaners from all corners to sign on to a petition criticizing a few of the biggest weaknesses in the SOA program, and get some meat behind the complaints to where the big corporate clown would not be able to just write complaints off as a few isolated ones.

Numbers make people pay attention.

Other than that - any good marketer will be able to work around any CRI efforts - where the trouble will come is from some of the savvy Rug Doctor, Home Depot, or franchises who are able to make consumers believe SOA actually matters. Their livelihoods rest on a program like this saving them. Though I have no issues with franchises - I do have an issue with them holding out a designation that could actually require equipment and chemicals WORSE for their home health than other UNapproved items. That is a crime.

Lisa

 

[ruff]

The one big advantage we have is that this big corporate clown is horrible at marketing with any impact ("Carpet... it just feels good" - millions later, no mark at all on sales), and apparently equally as horrible at creating an effective testing system for sucking up dirt out of carpet.

You would think they would be awesome at sucking, based on their past performance.

The weakness OUR industry has is a complete lack of one unified voice. The IICRC is polluted (sorry Jim and Tony - you are the only clean spots in that room), the trade associations have been dying for ages, the media readership is on the downslide, and the forums are disjointed - where educated cleaners and idiotic cleaners get to voice their opinions equally.

That said... I have yet to see any "professional" cleaner here, or any other place, stand up and say "you know what, this SOA program is really solid and what is best for the consumer."

So perhaps we could actually get cleaners from all corners to sign on to a petition criticizing a few of the biggest weaknesses in the SOA program, and get some meat behind the complaints to where the big corporate clown would not be able to just write complaints off as a few isolated ones.

Numbers make people pay attention.

Other than that - any good marketer will be able to work around any CRI efforts - where the trouble will come is from some of the savvy Rug Doctor, Home Depot, or franchises who are able to make consumers believe SOA actually matters. Their livelihoods rest on a program like this saving them. Though I have no issues with franchises - I do have an issue with them holding out a designation that could actually require equipment and chemicals WORSE for their home health than other UNapproved items. That is a crime.

Lisa

Just as they have some influence over us (not much as far as I know. however, I have no idea how many clients I may be loosing) we should also practice our muscles.

I think that Lisa nailed it. We are an industry of loners. If we can unite we can have a tremendous influence.

How so?

I have hundreds of active clients. I worked hard and for years to gain their trust. I tell them to call me when they want to buy a new carpet for free advise. I don't sell carpet. Most of my clients will call me for that advise- they trust me. And I am quite sure that they trust me more than they trust say: "DuPont."

I will not recommend a company that produces a bad carpet or that slanders or attacks carpet cleaners (steam, whatever etc.) So in a sense I can potentially influence hundreds of buying decisions.
If more cleaners will unite and act in the mutual interest of our clients and our business, yes they do not have to contradict, we can have a huge impact.

I, as just one carpet cleaner, can be the gateway to hundreds of homes. Together we can be the gateway to millions of purchasing decisions.

Alas, we can not even agree between us if we need to vacuum to the left or to the right.

Personally, coming from the left coast, I think it should be pretty clear.

Can we speak as one voice or at least a coherent one?!! A voice that will act in both ours and our clients' interest?

YES WE CAN!

 

[Jimmy L]

.

 

[Mikey P]

What are the chances that Larry Cooper would ask Jim to speak on this subject @ Vegas?

 

[ruff]

I am a lone hunter and I follow no one.

Everybody can KMA.

Hunters follow their prey............
JUIMMY!

Are you back?! Is it final?

We are such a sorry bunch of loners, we can't even agree on who is going to KYA first!

 

[Ron Werner]

Well, when the SOA gets marketed and WHEN a client calls and asks about it, then we will either seem like a professional when we tell the truth about it or seem like someone trying to duck the system.

What are the chances of getting a booth at Connections when cleaners can sign a petition and/or discuss the topic?

 

[LisaWagnerCRS]

What are the chances that Larry Cooper would ask Jim to speak on this subject @ Vegas?

So, unless there is money in it for him, I don't see Larry doing anything for the "good" of the industry - least of all taking a stand against a big corporation (which might mean potential $$$ for him in some way).

You might approach some of the association presidents, as they are the OWNERS of Connections (Larry just acts like he is).

I've been tossing around the idea of Piranha getting a booth at the show for the hell of it, and to support the associations. I won't have anything to sell because our event will be sold before then.... so if you all don't pool together moolah to have a "CRI Lies!" booth - I would be happy to be Complaint Central. If we get a booth, I'll volunteer space for that. By then I'll already have irritated everyone involved on "their" side because I've decided to have a SOA-reenactment at the Piranha Conference this year. I want to take every ranking, and put it to the test with real-world cleaning, with real-cleaners on real-dirt embedded in real-carpet.

I am going to have a cleaning circus all around the event, and document the whole damn thing. I know our members will have fun with it, and our vendor partners will appreciate us showing how good their products work without us extorting money from them for some fake science testing.

(By the way - great blog post today on Bill Bane's site on CRI at http://baneclene.blogspot.com/)

If there is consensus between the associations, the cleaners on these forums, and pretty much everyone but Jimmy of course - let's see what the reaction is. There will certainly be statements, some forceful, from cleaners on this to CRI - I'm curious to see if they will continue to deem the "barking dogs" as not worth paying attention to... or the barking bitch in my case.

At some point, they are going to need to face the lack of fact or science in their program. And with the petition, if we start one, and the testing at the Piranha event (and how I leverage that in PR) - if there is no sense of course-correction, and they move ahead with attempting to convince retailers to only send work to SOA approved companies, then we can play dirty... since we are the specialists at dirt.

The Piranha network is as large as some of the largest franchises in our industry today. Each has database sizes ranging from 700 to tens of thousands of homes. I know this because the #1 marketing tool that most of them use is the newsletter we print and provide to them.

I was looking at the numbers today, and if I really, really wanted to, we could reach millions of consumers in the US. "Warning: SOA scam by carpet mills harms homeowners." The earlier poster is right - who is the homeowner going to trust, a big bureaucracy, or the cleaning company they have allowed into their home for years? It would be pretty easy to make this program something to run from.

If this was a sound program, based on real case studies, and affordable for the manufacturers to participate in it - I would be supporting this, and having Piranha Members on the bandwagon. But when it is so clearly an attempt by the lesser-cleaning-mortals like Rug Doctor to get equal footing with the professionals through paying their way to the top, and doing harm to the homeowner in the process, that is worth fighting against. At least I think it is.

But who knows... maybe I'll just burn down DC instead. Only so many battles you can fight and run a business, or two.

I'm game with the booth offer if there seems to be any momentum here. I'll fight them regardless though... even if Jimmy doesn't approve.


Lisa

 

[harryhides]

Some points that the CRI needs to think about that I wrote this morning and mirror some of the comments above.

As a veteran carpet cleaner and Inspector having had ongoing communication over many years with hundreds of other veteran cleaners, I have no problem with a realistic "approval program", based primarily on training ( which is what we need in order to succeed ). Training, I might add that has not been imposed on Installers or on the Janitorial part of our industry, with any vigor, by the Mills.
I also feel that like you, there is a need for a credible test for vacuum cleaners and for independent tests for cleaning agents. As for equipment used by professionals, I believe that the market is a powerful force not to be ignored.
I would sincerely ask you to consider the following:

1/ The premise for SOA is false -
Every claims manager has publicly and on numerous occasions, in statements made to many Inspector's Symposiums refuted the notion that bad cleaners are the main cause of Mill claims in either Residential or Commercial market.
They have repeatedly confirmed what everyone in our industry knows - Installation and manufacturing related claims far outweigh cleaning related claims.
With cleaning related claims, the number of claims caused by janitors in Commercial buildings far outweigh cleaning related claims caused by professional cleaners in the residential market.
"Do it yourself" cleaning is a far larger problem than professional cleaning.
A lack of any realistic maintenance program is also a far larger problem that professional carpet cleaners have to deal with.
The SOA solution primarily targets the least of the Mills problems - the professional and trained cleaners.

2/ The disconnect between what the Lab tests for vs what our own experience in the field tell us is important.
We all know ( as does PTL ) that the following are most important factors that make cleaning soiled carpet a challenge -
Age of carpet - wear, untwisting and crushing of the carpet.
Age of the soil, compounded by being oxidized and by the effects exposure to sunlight.
Type of soil - oil based soils are by far the biggest challenge, especially on oil loving fibers.
This disconnect between what your Lab tests for and what we know is relevant is the main reason why this program will never be widely accepted.
The tiny number of CSP's out of tens of thousands of cleaning companies bears this out.

3/ Science must be repeatable, reproducible, peer reviewed and also relevant and realistic.
When your science meets these proven criteria, your results will be welcomed with open arms by the professional carpet cleaning industry.

4/ Our job is to make our customers happy and to make your product look to them, like it was a good choice.
We are also the largest and most qualified unpaid sales force you could possibly ask for, if you wanted.
We want to and should be wanting to work co operatively with the Mills so lets look back for a minute at this relationship.
First Dupont went into competition with us at the behest of an Instructor/supplier/consultant who with his own agenda profited handsomely.
Then Shaw went into competition with us and now Mohawk is competing with us each with their own well paid consultant whose interests were not those of cleaners.
These failed attempts to compete with us have not gone unnoticed.
And now you have come up with a "test" that attempts to tell us that our truck-mounted equipment is no better than a Rug Doctor.
Mr Braun claims that a majority of the CRI committee on this subject were cleaners when in fact they were primarily trainers, assorted consultants and equipment manufacturers with only their own interests to protect.

Short version -

Or to put this more succinctly, try to imagine yourself Mr Braun, for a moment, as a professional carpet cleaning arriving at your customer's house with a Rug Doctor and assuring them that this the best possible equipment for the job
Would you really expect that homeowner to take you seriously as a Professional ?

 

[ruff]

Well...I am in.

How about a simple email campaign?
Sort of like flexing our muscles.

Each cleaner on this and ICS board send an email (what is their email address for this matter?) to CRI. A simple 'friendly' one stating that:

"We (your cpmpany name) consider CRI's recommendation as doing harm to the homeowner. We find their tests to be contradictory to millions of hours of practical cleaning experience in the field. We suspect it to be an attempt by well financed companies to gain legitimacy and equal footing with the professionals carpet cleaner, through paying their way to the top at the consumer's expense.

We are greatly saddened by their choice and lack of regard for the consumer. As such,
unless it is changed bydate......) we can no longer in good conscience recommend their products to our thousands of clients.

Starting (date) we will only recommend............"

is there someone else we can recommend?

What have we got to loose? Beside Jimmy's lonely ass status?

It may certainly stir the pot a little.

 

[amazingcleansc]

A lack of any realistic maintenance program is also a far larger problem that professional carpet cleaners have to deal with.

I think the number of residential specialist pro carpet cleaners in the world would reduce SHARPLY if people figured out that they can encap their house with a sebo duo once a month.

I wouldn't bring that one up.

 

[Mikey P]

I was looking at the numbers today, and if I really, really wanted to, we could reach millions of consumers in the US. "Warning: SOA scam by carpet mills harms homeowners." The earlier poster is right - who is the homeowner going to trust, a big bureaucracy, or the cleaning company they have allowed into their home for years? It would be pretty easy to make this program something to run from.

What are the chances or odds that the Mills would start a campaign in O magazine warning homeowners about us evOl doers?


If that came about I'd use my Service Monster to send out a card with a nice "trust me" note in a heart beat.

 

[randy]

I think a Tea Party style protest in front of the CRI booth at Connections would be a good start, followed by everyone getting up and walking out whenever the " CRI's Joseph Goebbels " gets up to speak.

Ultimately litigation will be necessary to stop this whole atrocity of greed.
Personally I don't believe the mills will ever deny one warranty claim over SOA or certification standards. They know what they are attempting is 100% illegal in the United States. There are literally thousands of law firms that specialize in Class Action cases. All one of these boutique firms needs is ONE CONSUMER THAT HAS HAD A WARRANTY denied, they then go to court and easily show that the practice alleged to be illegal in the filing has the potential of effecting a whole class of people and boom, you have a class action certification from the court. The Mills then get to pay to mail every purchaser of their product an invitation to join the litigation. That's where the real bite comes from.

By the way, cleaners do have a "voice" . The IICRC & the trade associations have been trying for years to convince us they are our voice. Our liaison to the MILLS.

The IICRC betrayed us, Ruth Travis went out of her way to promote SOA while President. The trade associations, well this whole dam thing came out of one of the largest ones.
So maybe we had a "voice" that was corrupted and now needs to be replaced by a law firm.

 

[Mikey P]

Lisa, if you're serious about a Booth for SOA scam information I'd be glad to lend a hand and any MB association that may draw additional traffic to the festivities.

MB members @ Connections last year far out numbered any real association's crowd

 

[randy]

Lisa, if you're serious about a Booth for SOA scam information I'd be glad to lend a hand and any MB association that may draw additional traffic to the festivities.

MB members @ Connections last year far out numbered any real association's crowd

We are a REAL ASSOCIATION. We actually associate. Most of those other associations are just a long list of names, most of which joined to get a discount on Connections and never paid to renew their annual membership. I'm still listed on two associations and never renewed either one. They won't kick you out for nothing.

 

[Mikey P]

Randy just called himself a Mikey Boarder..


he he....

 

[Jim Pemberton]

The best in this board comes out when we talk about issues like this.

There are people on the "reasonable side" of the SOA that have said, in so many words, "Well you're right, but so many groups have so much money invested in this program that we can't just scrap it."

Once anyone uses the "We have too much money invested in it to drop it" excuse, that's when you know its failing.

Push back hard. Do it now.