CDS ...My First Breakdown on the job!

[gimmeagig]

No not me, but my Hydramaster CDS.
Third job of the day, everything was going fine, then the machine just shuts itself down.The sun was shining right onto my machine and I couldn't make out any warning lights.
I was running off my freshwater tank ( I like it because it saves me time and my water seems to get hotter that way).
So my first thought was: The waste tank is full, but the water had not reached the float switch bulb yet.
Second thought was: The pump from the onboard freshwater tank died. So I switched to the garden hose setup.Nothing...
There's a reset breaker on my cds panel.I have never used it and I don't know what it really does but I pushed it. still no result.Out of ideas
So I confessed to the customer, and old guy and his wife what had happened and they couldn't have been nicer. I told him that I don't know why the machine is not running and that I'd be troubleshooting it at home and probably taking it to my repair shop on Monday.
Fortunately the main living area was done and his life wasn't completely disrupted but I felt so bad.
He insisted on paying me and even gave me some veggies from his garden to take home.How nice is that?
Anyway, when I got home I drained the waste tank, cleaned the filters,wiggled around the float bulbs, cleaned some screeens inside the tank,opened up the rear panel and made sure that all the electrical connections were tight and then started up the machine. It runs perfectly now. Unfortunately there was nothing obvious that was wrong and now I'm wondering what could have been the cause.
My girlfriend ( who used to own a machine shop so she's not stupid) says the machine must have overheated since today was a pretty hot day, but I don't know if there is some type of a shutoff mechanism for that in my CDS.
Tomorrow morning I'll be cleaning my own carpet( way overdue) to make sure it still works and hopefully I'll be going back to my customer's house to finish the job.
Do you guys have any idea what might have happened? I don't know too much about float switches, what the components are that typically fail and what happens when they go bad. Could it be that the switch erroneously signaled a full tank?
I'm totally stumped and I'm going to be on the edge on future jobs now, waiting for another glitch......
Anything else I should be looking at?
Thanks for your help!

 

[joe harper]

Roxy,

Disconnect your FLOAT SWITCH...!

Just be careful to monitor your waste level....!

This will ELIMANATE the question as to the Float switch FAILURE... :idea:

If the problem occurs AGAIN...at least you KNOW it is NOT the Float Switch... !gotcha!

 

[gimmeagig]

Do I have to run some type of bypass or is disconnecting it enough?

 

[joe harper]

Do I have to run some type of bypass or is disconnecting it enough?

A pic would be nice... :?:

Should only be 2 wires....Most have a CLIP ...you can Disconnect...?

If NOT trace the wires through the wiring harness & remove from the POWER source...!


If this is too complicated...simply take a wire or rubberband & strap the float in the DOWN position ! While this will NOT isolate the switch...It will NOT allow the float to activate...

 

[gimmeagig]

Doesn't sound too difficult.I'll give it a shot, thanks.
Do you think that that is most likely the culprit?

 

[Royal Man]

Vehicle overheats and shuts off CDS

The high-temperature shutdown switch has activated or is faulty. Unplug the
219 degree hi-temperature shutdown sensor from the top coolant heat exchanger see if
the machine starts. If it does start, inspect the vehicle cooling system for the following:
Low coolant level in the vehicle. Check coolant level of the truck to make sure it
is full, including the overflow bottle. If coolant level is low, check hoses, fittings, water
pump and radiator cap for leaks. Repair or replace as necessary.

From: http://www.hydramaster.com/portals/0/ma ... lshoot.pdf

 

[Out of Character - 0]

I don't own a Hm, if your van runs and your blower/pump turn then you should never be unable to clean in clutch drive pto.
Spend some time leaning how that thing works. You should be able to build one after an hour or 2. FYI, the clutch on the pump and on the front of the drive shaft turn on if they receive 12volts, ie a wire from the battery to the clutch. Obviously you don't want to make it run if the van is overheated

 

[gimmeagig]

I don't own a Hm, if your van runs and your blower/pump turn then you should never be unable to clean in clutch drive pto.
Spend some time leaning how that thing works. You should be able to build one after an hour or 2. FYI, the clutch on the pump and on the front of the drive shaft turn on if they receive 12volts, ie a wire from the battery to the clutch. Obviously you don't want to make it run if the van is overheated

Not sure that was the help I was looking for.Maybe you can learn how to build a machine in an hour. Not me, that's for sure. I agree that I need to spend more time getting to know my machine, I used to own a 1962 TR4 and maintained it for 13 years, so Im not totally clueless but I'm just a regular guy trying to learn something new on every job and not break anything.

 

[mirf]

I think the float swich may be the problem also. You may have to connect the wires after disconnecting. However I would probaly leave it in place and just see how to do it if it happens again.

 

[gimmeagig]

The coolant level on my van and it was low,maybe about a quart.I refilled it and tested the machine last night.It started and was working fine again. This morning I ran it and cleaned parts of my house.No problems. So I called my customer,finished the job( he was very happy and so was I) then I did another job and the machine ran flawlessly until I was just starting to pack up.This time I could see that the control light "Engine Temp" was lit. So that's the problem.
We had temperatures in the high 90s which seems to be too much for my machine.
I did change out my 195 thermostat to a 205 to get hotter water. I've been using the van like that for quite some time now without any problems but it's been hot and I'm doing more jobs in one day than I used to.
So what do I do now? Should I change back to the 195 for the hotter days?
How long might it be before the overheat protection resets itself and if it does, how long might I have before the machine shuts down again? I always have dryers on my truck I could run an extension cord to my truck and hook them up to cool down the radiator. That would look really bad though and it might not even work....
I've been using my onboard freshwater tank to get the water even hotter.It works!
But if it is really hot outside, would it help if I connected to a faucet for a colder source of freshwater?
Is there a way to change the shutdown switch to give me a few more degrees?
Would that be too risky for my motor?

 

[joe harper]

A quart is not really that LOW...

Keep a close ckeck on the fluid...EVERY morning for a while...

Check for any small leaks in the system & hoses...

If you are NOT loosing fluid EXTERNALLY....?

You may have a small leak in your HX...

If a leak in your HX gets bad...You will see water coming from your OVERFLOW on the raditor..

Hope your problem is solved... :!:

"Good Call Dave...!" 8)

 

[Chris A]

Roxy, get a set of electric fans for the van engine, but you can also pop the hood of the van on really hot days

 

[Jim Martin]

when was the last time the antifreeze was replaced..it may be broken down and not doing its job.........90 degrees is really nothing to run the machine with a 205 stat....I ran mine in anywhere from 100 to 114 degrees with a 205 stat with no problems at all....and a quart of anti freeze is not going to effect nothing as far as how hot it gets...when was the last time the radiator was cleaned off...there should be a A/C condenser sitting in front of the radiator....normally crap gets stuck between the condenser and the radiator and blocks the air flow from the fan....check the fan clutch......it may be going out and not pulling enough air to cool the radiator...

Like Chris said...put a electric fan on the out side of the condenser/radiator....but ...hook it up to a switch on the dash...that way when the weather cools off you can turn it off so that the machine will heat up in the cold weather...

 

[Royal Man]

a 205 thermostat and a 219 thermal sensor. Could be a problem. Or the sensor could be bad and shuts off too soon.

 

[Jim Martin]

a 205 thermostat and a 219 thermal sensor. Could be a problem. Or the sensor could be bad and shuts off too soon.

plenty of playing around room there if it is cooling its self down the way it is supposed to.......but you are correct that if the sensor is getting weak it will start to give you bad readings..

 

[gimmeagig]

So here's the latest.yesterday the machine shut itself off (after I was done with the job,engine temp)It started right up again this morning but the engine coolant was a exactly a quart low.
I have the truck running ( machine off)outside my garage right now looking for leaks.After that I will fire up the machine and let it run to see if it will shut itself down again and what the engine temp is at that point.
Tomorrow I'll have the coolant checked and the system pressure tested. The shop could do a chemical flush and a service if it is needed.Is a chemical flush a good idea?
I like the idea of opening the hood to help with the cooling.
Here's another thought I had: When I run my machine I always set the heat control lever to hot on the dash. What if I also turn on the interior fan on full blast.....? Would that help dissipate the heat of the engine and give me a little more help keeping it from shutting down?
One more question:Where is the heat sensor that shuts down the machine located and is it a DIYjob to replace it?
Thanks

 

[joe harper]

Roxy...it may be as simple as a radiator cap.... :idea:
Get a NEW one ...they are cheep..!

If it is the cds sensor...AGAIN..it can be disconnected to verify...

Remember...Your unit acts as a radiator itself...removing the addition heat from the engine
"while @ high rpm stationary"... :idea: Your van ENGINE should have a sensor for overheating ....that will shut it down @ extreme temps...@ least an IDIOT light... :!:

IS YOU VAN ENGINE...TEMP GUAGE or LIGHT...reading HOT.... :?:

ps..I have NEVER been a fan of CHEMICAL FLUSHING of radiators...IN HIGH MILEAGE PTO.. :!:
The flush is very corrosive...&...can damage "SOME" HX units... that hurts


pss If this is occurring ONLY in the summer...? You can attach a QD with a short hose & a
ball-valve "SLIGHTLY CRACKED" to relieve excessive heat & pressure... :idea: You can
run that line to you FRESHY tank & pre-heat your fresh water... :idea: OR you can run it to you WASTE-TANK as a by-pass... !gotcha! EITHER WAY...it will function as a TEMP SENSOR !

 

[Jim Martin]

WWJD.......

 

[gimmeagig]

Alright,I found the coolant leak.The clamp for the hose on the bottom of the water pump is not tight enough.Unfortunately it's the kind that you can't tighten.To replace it I'll have to also remove the hose so I'll have to catch all the coolant in a bucket
( I have one that fits under the truck).I'll try to get it tested somewhere that way I'll know if that was part of the problem but I'll replace the coolant while I'm at it just to be safe.It's been a while since my british car tinkering days.Is there a specific type that is better than others for our trucks or are they all the same?
While I'm at it I'll try to hunt down a 219 degree switch.I'll get a new cap just to eliminate another possibility.
I called tech support at hydramaster and Like so often I got an impatient tech on the phone.Sometimes they make me feel like I'm bothering them.Maybe they don't really want to talk to anyone who's trying to keep an older machine running.Or maybe they are just unfriendly and short with anyone.They don't seem to be too concerned with the fact that I will be buying another machine eventually.
Anyway, they don't have the switch anymore but the tech at least told me where it was located on the machine so I'll take it out and go to the auto parts store to see if I can find a match there. I don't have a job today so I'll be trying to get it handled.
That's it for now wish me luck!

 

[gimmeagig]

WWJD.......

???

 

[Royal Man]

Sometimes when a leak is near the water pump it can be the weep hole in the pump and the pump needs to be replaced.

 

[joe harper]

Sometimes when a leak is near the water pump it can be the weep hole in the pump and the pump needs to be replaced.

CORRECT....If you have run it LOW on fluid & HOT...You could have PuKeD the PumP.. :!:

 

[gimmeagig]

That would be bad! I got the hose off and Im getting one of those screw clamps to replace the old on and see if that helps. I wonder if epoxy putty or JB weld around the base of the pump might plug the leak if that's what it ends up being.probably not....

 

[Jim Martin]

Sometimes when a leak is near the water pump it can be the weep hole in the pump and the pump needs to be replaced.

CORRECT....If you have run it LOW on fluid & HOT...You could have PuKeD the PumP.. :!:

so why does it run all day and then when it gets hot outside it decides to puke...I am sure that the little leak is not playing nice..but from what I am understanding he has lost no more then a quart.. but if that was the case then would it not do it all the time instead of just when the temp ambient temperature is around or above 90 degrees...it should be giving him problems as he is driving from job to job and if it was not circulating correct wouldn't the needle peg up to hot or a light come on.......but..as he is driving he has more air pushing thru the radiator keeping it cool....when he is at a job and it is sitting there at an idle...he has less air flowing thru the radiator trying to keep it cool...that why I am thinking he has more of an air flow problem then a water issue...

and no...IF water is coming out of the weep hole that is an indication the pump is bad and plugging the hole is not going to fix it.....

 

[joe harper]

Jim I am NOT familiar with the CDS...

I only have experiance with the BUTLER...
I have NOT gotton an answer YET...as to if the VAN itself is overheating...?

I agree a quart of fluid is NOTHING... :roll:
I do know that sensor's can be disengaged or by-passed to ISOLATE the issue...

There are MANY reasons the unit can shut down under load...
On a PTO unit ...most are ELECTRICAL..."Right in your wheelhouse".. :idea:

Clutches can overheat or loose ground,sensor failure,weak fuses,poor grounds, ect.ect.ect !

IF THE VAN ENGINE IS NOT OVERHEATING......The problem is with the unit....!

ps ...AIR FLOW is not the issue...if the VAN is operating with-in normal temp ranges...

Soooo...IS THE VAN OVERHEATING...?????????????????????????????????

 

[rcl1006]

leave your hood open , see if that helps

 

[gimmeagig]

So I put it all together and the water pump seems to be OK, changing the clamp out and re-tightening every thing stopped the leak.
But here's something that worries me. I let the truck idle for about 20 minutes in my driveway to check for leaks and I have never checked my temp gauge when the truck idles this long.It went almost to 260 degrees!!!I drove it for a few miles and the temp went down to between 190 and 200 degrees. So my problem is when the truck is standing still and that must be why my machine shut down, but I don't know what the cause for the high idle temp would be. The waterpump works if the belt turns it and it is not leaking right? The shrouding around the radiator is in placem I have new coolant in the van. I forgot to buy a new radiator cap,I don't know if that could be the cause. The oil level is good.
The overheat shutoff switch is probably doing what it is supposed to but I don't know what to look for now.
Do you guys have any ideas?

 

[Jim Martin]

OK...you have a 205 stat...so really it should of opened around 210 and then the temp should of dropped.....

what you need to do is let it cool down so the stat closes.....take off the radiator cap and start the van...let it run up to temp and look in the radiator..once the stat opens then the anti freeze level should drop to where you can not see it..start filling it up until you can see the anti freeze and you can see it is circulating...then it will be all the way full and you can see if the pump is working....put the cap back on...

if all this checks out ok...shut it off and let it cool down...start the van...run the machine wide open..put a good air mover on a stool or something pointing right at the radiator...and see how hot it runs.......

I still think it is a air movement problem...when you let it sit and idle..it heated up....when you drove it you forced air there the radiator and it cooled down....plugged radiator..fan clutch...belt slipping...you have got to have good air flow thru that thing to keep the anti freeze cooled down so that it cools the engine.....

 

[gimmeagig]

Ive got good news. Seems like I'm ok. When I had drained the radiator about 21/2 gal of fluid came out. When I refilled it I could only get 1 1/2 gal back in.
The way I refilled was with the engine off I filled the radiator directly and then I put the cap back on and started the engine. Then I added into the overflow tank until it read full.
My triumph TR4 had no overflow so there I poured directly into the radiator until the therostat opened up and then added to it.
I just remembered that.... So I guess my truck thermostat had not opened up and that's why I was only able to get 1 1/2 gal back in. when I came back from my drive the overflow tank was empty and I filled it up to the right level but I'm still only at 2 gal. I'll keep checking it but my truck has been running with the machine on for about 30 min now and the temp is 200 degrees and no leaks.
So thank you very much for taking the time to help me.
I'll have a couple of jobs tomorrow and I'll find out if the machine shuts down again.
But with the correct oil level( it was about a pint low and so am I right now )
fresh coolant and no more leak I might be ok.
I will be looking at that switch but I need to get my seat out because it is stuck in the far back position and the bolt's that hold it in place are rusted.With the seat in place it's very tough to get access to it. I have some Liquid wrench on it and I'll try again tomorrow.I replaced the bolts on my passenger seat with wing nuts so that one is very easy to get out for better access on the rear panel.
Again, thanks a lot everybody!

 

[joe harper]

Jim is spot on...with his assessment...

Now that you have the proper fluid level...the stat...should function properly...

I noticed in a previous post...you said you were moving the interior thermostat
control to the HOT position...DON'T do that..!!!...This will delay the stat from
opening @ the proper time..! Plus you are robbing HEAT from your unit...!!!

I truly hope your problem is SOLVED...!!!!
If you continue to loose fluid..? The next area to look for is a "sucked" head gasket or "cracked" head.... :shock:

PTO units are famous for cracking heads...due to the LACK of air movement while operating.
You can only over-heat them ...so many times...