Chem reverse engineering

[Dolly Llama]

Dumb question.....
What prevents chemiesters from cloning known/proven winners?

Are the chem facilities able to analyze/determine every ingredient to precise volumes?

..L.T.A.

 

[Jack Zipper Zerkie]

Not sure but I still like budwieser better.

 

[Lee Stockwell]

Able? Yes, some of them.

 

[J Scott W]

Learning approximately what makes up a cleaning product is not very difficult if you have some equipment. Analysis down to precise amounts would require more expensive equipment and those trained to operate the equipment (spectrograph for example). It could be done but probably not worth the time and money required.

I have never spoken to a chemist or formulator who did not think he could improve upon a competitors products with his own tweaks and adjustments. They may want a product to perform a similar function, but I don't think they want to make an exact copy.

 

[Sierra Clean Care]

Product in original package, SDS sheet, and a competent chemical engineer.

 

[The Great Oz]

Dumb question.....
What prevents chemiesters from cloning known/proven winners?

The cost of doing a complete chemical analysis. Only low volume products are safe from being knocked off.

 

[The Great Oz]

PS: A Steamway product that we liked a lot was discontinued. We couldn't find a replacement anywhere, as it seemed the rest of the industry was OK using a lesser product that didn't work for the same purpose or products that had added stuff that caused problems for us. We took a gallon to a local chemical producer and had them make it for us.

 

[Mikey P]

There is a very pricey gadget that you can pour any chem into and it will give a the complete recipe.

 

[SamIam]

Learning approximately what makes up a cleaning product is not very difficult if you have some equipment. Analysis down to precise amounts would require more expensive equipment and those trained to operate the equipment (spectrograph for example). It could be done but probably not worth the time and money required.

I have never spoken to a chemist or formulator who did not think he could improve upon a competitors products with his own tweaks and adjustments. They may want a product to perform a similar function, but I don't think they want to make an exact copy.

And be known as the copy cat! R cough cough A knock off of oxyblaster cough

 

[Andy]

PS: A Steamway product that we liked a lot was discontinued. We couldn't find a replacement anywhere, as it seemed the rest of the industry was OK using a lesser product that didn't work for the same purpose or products that had added stuff that caused problems for us. We took a gallon to a local chemical producer and had them make it for us.

What Steamway product was that?

 

[Matt Middleton]

I believe Rob-O has spent his entire life reverse engineering and knocking off others accomplishments.

 

[Desk Jockey]

We would periodically get a chemical rep that would say he could make us our own line and save 1/2 of what were were paying.

It still wasn't worth dicking with. Our chemical costs were under 2% of our sales.

I needed someone to show me how to cut my labor, insurance, health insurance in half.

 

[Tim Baker]

The majority of the chemistry in cleaning products we see in our industry today are very old and unsophisticated formulas. The art is well known on how to formulate or "duplicate" a competitor's product. Many of the products on the market today from so called "manufactures" are simple private label products from industrial chemical blenders that make low cost laundry detergents, cheap degreasers, and floor wax strippers. They simply slap a new label on them and call them carpet products.
At Legend Brands our chemists have over 80 years of combined experience formulating products dedicated to the cleaning and restoration industry. We are not interested in copying or duplicating old technologies. Our goal is to develop new, safe, and more efficient ways forward for our industry. Legend Brands has invested in very expensive, state-of-the-art laboratory instrumentation that allows us to create new chemistries that will be the new standard for the next 30 years. Just take a look at some of the products Legend Brands created lately, such as Unleashed, Ultrapac Extreme, Ink Exit, and a few new products in development, as well as new technology updates to existing formulas. The new advancements that Legend Brands is incorporating into our formulations are so innovative that we are confident our competitors will not be able to duplicate them.

 

[Hack Attack]

yep run a sample through a spectograph and it will print a recipe out, used to use them regularly in wine industry for nutrional balance of leaf and juice samples..(and the odd hort chem sample )

I contemplated buying a specto at a laboratory equipment auction bout 6 months ago it went for $200

but then I'd have more pieces of equipment in the garage collecting dust, still have to source raw product and then blend etc.. would only have been worth it if I was going into commercial production but easy to do

 

[Hack Attack]

The majority of the chemistry in cleaning products we see in our industry today are very old and unsophisticated formulas. The art is well known on how to formulate or "duplicate" a competitor's product. Many of the products on the market today from so called "manufactures" are simple private label products from industrial chemical blenders that make low cost laundry detergents, cheap degreasers, and floor wax strippers. They simply slap a new label on them and call them carpet products.
At Legend Brands our chemists have over 80 years of combined experience formulating products dedicated to the cleaning and restoration industry. We are not interested in copying or duplicating old technologies. Our goal is to develop new, safe, and more efficient ways forward for our industry. Legend Brands has invested in very expensive, state-of-the-art laboratory instrumentation that allows us to create new chemistries that will be the new standard for the next 30 years. Just take a look at some of the products Legend Brands created lately, such as Unleashed, Ultrapac Extreme, Ink Exit, and a few new products in development, as well as new technology updates to existing formulas. The new advancements that Legend Brands is incorporating into our formulations are so innovative that we are confident our competitors will not be able to duplicate them.

nice spin.. guess you've never worked in a lab

 

[Lee Stockwell]

I worked for Vanderbilt Chemical for several years. The lab there could duplicate anything. However they specialized in stuff many times more expensive.

 

[The Great Oz]

What Steamway product was that?

Yellow Eliminator. It was a tartaric acid based product designed to remove yellowing from carpet-mill over-application of Teflon and off-gassing related yellowing. Once the mills got a handle on Teflon application and pad makers changed their formulas, yellowing went away and so did the main need for the product.

 

[Cleanworks]

I always liked Steamways formula O and their cotton/wool products. Formula D was a good non detergent sour.

 

[Desk Jockey]

Formula O was good stuff. Loved the smell but when it came in the 5 gallons some of it fell out of solution. Crystals were always at the bottom.

 

[Dolly Llama]

The majority of the chemistry in cleaning products we see in our industry today are very old and unsophisticated formulas. The art is well known on how to formulate or "duplicate" a competitor's product. Many of the products on the market today from so called "manufactures" are simple private label products from industrial chemical blenders that make low cost laundry detergents, cheap degreasers, and floor wax strippers. They simply slap a new label on them and call them carpet products.
At Legend Brands our chemists have over 80 years of combined experience formulating products dedicated to the cleaning and restoration industry. We are not interested in copying or duplicating old technologies. Our goal is to develop new, safe, and more efficient ways forward for our industry. Legend Brands has invested in very expensive, state-of-the-art laboratory instrumentation that allows us to create new chemistries that will be the new standard for the next 30 years. Just take a look at some of the products Legend Brands created lately, such as Unleashed, Ultrapac Extreme, Ink Exit, and a few new products in development, as well as new technology updates to existing formulas. The new advancements that Legend Brands is incorporating into our formulations are so innovative that we are confident our competitors will not be able to duplicate them.

thanks Tim

are you in the chem development/formulation part of Legends, or the sales part?

..L.T.A.

 

[Cleanworks]

Formula O was good stuff. Loved the smell but when it came in the 5 gallons some of it fell out of solution. Crystals were always at the bottom.

Is your name Willy?

 

[Cleanworks]

Steamways original neutral cleaner (cotton/wool) was really good. Seemed like there was pulp from lemons in it, then they changed the formula.

 

[Desk Jockey]

Is your name Willy?

I didn't bitch and complain about it. I did show my rep and he suggested just buying case lots, which we did for awhile.

 

[Ron K]

PS: A Steamway product that we liked a lot was discontinued. We couldn't find a replacement anywhere, as it seemed the rest of the industry was OK using a lesser product that didn't work for the same purpose or products that had added stuff that caused problems for us. We took a gallon to a local chemical producer and had them make it for us.

601??

 

[Ron K]

Steamway had some good juice!
I miss Ralph.

 

[Ron K]

And their machines would make Daenerys jealous!

 

[Lyman]

oxyblaster knock off even looks and smells the same

 

[Tim Baker]

thanks Tim

are you in the chem development/formulation part of Legends, or the sales part?

..L.T.A.

I am the category manager for cleaning chemicals and work with all things chemical related including working with our chemists on a regular basis.

 

[Desk Jockey]

I am the category manager for cleaning chemicals and work with all things chemical related including working with our chemists on a regular basis.

You can tell him Tim, chemists, not dikhead carpet cleaners asking stoopid questions that they already know the answer to.

Larry's only saving grace is that he was a Prochem user.

 

[Lee Stockwell]

Knowing or copying a "recipe" does not automatically make you a good cook.

Remember your grandma's legendary recipe that your crazy aunt always ruined?