Choosing the right rinse.

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Choosing the right rinse.

Twenty years ago plain hot water was considered the ultimate rinse agent for carpet cleaning, and a touch of an acid, near any acid, was used as a soure to correct pH. However, in the last eight or so years, almost every cleaning chemical manufacturer has been busy refining products to perform a combination of rinse aid and acid pH correction.

Still today, many will purport that using plain water works best. Indeed it may be true if, and only if the prespray, or anything else in the carpet at the time of the rinse procedure is water rinse-able, with the small amount of water desirable for this procedure. Carpet manufacturers recommendations, the standard of care, and the science of carpet cleaning all tells us that we should minimize the amount of water to prevent over wetting, especially the backing. Over wetting causes backing degradation, increased dry times due to trapped moisture not extracted, and can cause wicking of soils embedded past the face yarns. Pre-conditioners, such as traffic lane cleaners, typically contain high HLB balance emulsifiers to accomplish emulsification, and actually rely on the lower HLB emulsifiers in either alkaline or acidic "rinse" cleaners or emulsifiers to couple the preconditioner surfactants to the aqueous rinse solution. That being the case, water alone is a poor rinse choice in most cases. The lone exceptions are either preconditioners that specifically designed for water rinsing, which also means that it is a poor oil/grease emulsifier, and rare in this industry. Granted, the so-called "soap free" products usually meet this criteria, but are also low performance when used as a grease/oil cutting prespray.

The typical carpet cleaning scenario usually means the operator is using one favorite prespray that covers a wide variety of cleaning situations, from mildly dirty to downright filthy. Then in this same scenario, the carpet cleaner wants to remove the emulsified soiling, while using minimal effort, time and moisture to get the job done. Also we've been taught that in using the high-powered surfactant preconditioner, usually with an elevated pH, that we also want to leave the carpet in a favorable pH state closer to neutra, maybe even slightly acidic for dye and protectant stability.

The problem is, not very many of them really address the core issues with a degree of balance. An “Acid Rinse” implies two basic characteristics; that the product acts as a rinse agent AND also be an acid soure, presumable for pH correction. Since soils are generally acidic, alkaline cleaners are generally used to take advantage of opposing chemistry to interact with these soils rendering them more easily removed by water flushing/vacuum extraction. However, potential alkaline residues have their own problem. They generally impart a stiffness and a residue of their own which leaves the fiber with a negative perception of clean. These same cleaning agents also use aggressive surfactants designed to break down and emulsify oily soils. These same surfactants, which do such a great job of degreasing, exhibit negative characteristics if not completely rinsed. They are generally soil attracting or “sticky”, which also certainly contradicts the perception of “clean”. Moreover, the better a surfactant is at oil emulsification, the more water, hot or cold, it takes to rinse said surfactant. Enter “Fiber Rinses”. The ideal product aids water in surfactant rinsibility, as well as a soureing agent to impart pH correction/alkaline rinsing.

Choosing the right rinse from the products on the market means taking a look at the effectiveness of the product to perform its dual function in an efficient manner, as well as not leaving a residue itself which has negative properties. Certain acids can actually contribute to resoiling, or interact with other cleaning compounds already in the fiber to create negative residues. Often it is complex organic acids, such as citric acid or gluconic acid, which have been used unsuccessfully in rinse products. The best “candidates” for correction include hydrochloric, hydrofluoric, phosphoric, sulfuric, sulfamic and nitric acids. However, from this list, sulfamic has the mild chemical properties, for fibers, ecology and safety, which seem to make for a prudent product overall. Others may find this conclusion subjective, though. Next, a good rinse aid additive is paramount. One that will not leave a negative residue, but will make for a marked reduction in water needed to rinse sticky surfactant residues. The reduction of water is important insofar as using copious amounts of water can lead to problems in dry times as well as carpet construction degradation. Seemingly paradoxically, it is a specialty type of surfactant that works best to aid water in rinse-ability of bad (sticky type) surfactant residue. This class of surfactant is not generally used for cleaning soils, but as a specialty rinse aid. The very best in this class dry to a free flowing powder at normal room humidity levels, permitting vacuuming of the inevitable trace amounts left behind. Among the very worst choice for a rinse aid surfactant is a touch of the same surfactant types that you are trying to rinse out in the first place. Believe it or not, it is quite commonplace for chemical manufacturers to put exactly the same surfactant they use in their cleaning agents as they put in their rinse! That is, if they even address the rinse-aid issue at all. Alternatively, many of the supposed rinse products are nothing more than soure agents simply relabeled as rinses to join the bandwagon. It is this very bad sort of marketing, which has been responsible for some people’s reluctance to try good rinse products when they see in their prior attempts, that plain hot water worked just as well for them.

Now here’s the really difficult part. Talking to salespeople about the chemical attributes of their available rinses to find the ones with the right properties, or close ones to maximize your efficiency in the application of these products. You have to ask really pointed questions. “What acid is in this product, and why?” as well as; “What does the product have to rinse surfactant residues?”

If customers push their suppliers for answers that really work, that will force them to find out what they might not know. Moreover, the low quality of some of the poorer rinse products will be pushed by demand for better products, and the relative inferior nature of plain water will shown more clearly.

I didn't write this to sell product, nor did I even name any, but in an effort to harbor people to contemplate the truth. Ask questions. If you get the right answers, give them a try. You will be pleasantly surprised by the increase in the quality of your work, and so will your customer.
 

Loren Egland

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Thanks for taking the time to write this Shawn.

I am not a clear water rinse guy. On certain occasions I will use a rinse agent that is acid, but mostly I still use an alkaline rinse.

In your opinion, when would you use an alkaline rinse? Depending upon the preconditioner you use?
If in doubt, is it best to use a preconditioner and a rinse from the same company for compatibility reasons?
Powders or liquids for rinse agents?
Encapsulation rinses?
Does it matter whether a rinse agent is alkaline or acid when it comes to leaving a soil attracting residue?
How hard is an acid rinse on the truck mount?

And you thought you answered all the questions. :lol:
 

TimP

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So what products should we be using......???? PM me if you don't want to name them on the board and are willing to tell.....I want to know.


Personally I've had very good luck with Powermax preconditioner and Judson O2. And I've been rinsing them with Bridgepoint Point Blue....probably different surfactants in both....maybe that's why it works well?


I've been wanting to try a soap free STPP product as a rinse but it takes what seems like ages to get rid of a powder emulsifier, which I already have and can't see buying something and likeing it so much I may leave an unused product behind.

I like acid rinse too but I've gotten lazy and spoiled and found that using an emulsifier with a good preconditioner is way easier to clean carpet with and it does not cause resoiling. As I've used the rinse in very high traffic areas and not seen one bit of resoil!!!
 

Blue Monarch

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Hydramaster's Clear Water Rinse is the cats azz for me.

1. Smells good, so it gives the impression of cleanliness.
2. Descales my QD's which makes me happy.
3. Rinses pre-sprays damn good.
4. Very concentrated.

What else can you ask for?
 
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Loren Egland said:
In your opinion, when would you use an alkaline rinse?

If my goal was not an ideal end state, so much as an appearance change. One might select this option, providing the choices of such products were sound, if the client or cleaner was not fastidiously mindful of slight resoiling due to residues, and a slight harsh hand to the fiber was not a problem.

Loren Egland said:
Depending upon the preconditioner you use?
in short, Yes.

Loren Egland said:
If in doubt, is it best to use a preconditioner and a rinse from the same company for compatibility reasons?
Sometimes, but sadly there is no general rule here.

Loren Egland said:
Powders or liquids for rinse agents?
What is your definition of "rinse agent"? The same as mine, or any extraction emulsifier?

Loren Egland said:
Encapsulation rinses?
The same rule follows for these products. They are new, in a relative sense. As such, the products vary widley in performance and even definition at this time.

Loren Egland said:
Does it matter whether a rinse agent is alkaline or acid when it comes to leaving a soil attracting residue?
pH alone has absolutely no correlation to the soil attractive nature of the residue. More often than not it is the surfactant residue which is responsible. However, some acids/alkali's are hygroscopic and sticky at typical humidity conditions, whereas others are reactive with other compounds and can form tertiary substances which are sticky. However, this is not a function of pH.

Loren Egland said:
How hard is an acid rinse on the truck mount?
Big question. Too large actually for this thread. Some are, some are not, while others "harshness" are entirely dependent on the system design of the unit... i.e. last step versus first step. Fortunately, most acid rinses are designed to be quite compatible and are not significantly harmful, when used as directed. Mind you, nearly all TM manufacturers recommend that you do not permit chemicals to remain in the system when not cleaning. Purge at the very least, at the end of the day's jobs. In fact, at least periodic use of an acid rinse product can clear scaling and pent up alkaline residues in the plumbing sections it will contact.
 

Art Kelley

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Perhaps there does exist a more effective rinse agent than plain soft water applied at high flow rates and immediately extracted with a glided wand, but I have yet to see anything that will surpass it.
Sure, an alkaline "rinse" will allow you to wand faster, but the only times I have seen resoiling issues is when I have used such products, especially at the manufacturer's suggested application rate. One should aspire to use only enough prespray as the soiling conditions reguire, augmenting broad wand spraying with hand-held trigger sprayers containing a more concentrated mix of your general prespray for heavy deposits of oils and soils. A quick once over with a floor machine, be it a bonnet or a brush or a pad, will eliminate any need for additional chemicals in your rinse, and indeed will provide the best visible results obtainable with the least resoiling problems.
 

Able 1

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I use an akaline rinse and so far I like it alot... When I went into business I talked to an old schooler that said the best was the Blitz (from HM) and clear water rinse. The thing I have a problem with is I like to scrub with the wand on spots and traffic lanes and It was probably in my mind but I felt like I was neutralizing my cleaning ability.

Keith
 

Larry Cobb

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Keith;

If you want the better-cleaning alkaline rinse, then you should consider an "encapsulate" rinse.

They can offer the best "anti-resoil" characteristics and additional cleaning effectiveness.

Larry Cobb
 

SRI Cleaning

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Dirk Wingrove said:
Hydramaster's Clear Water Rinse is the cats azz for me.

1. Smells good, so it gives the impression of cleanliness.
2. Descales my QD's which makes me happy.
3. Rinses pre-sprays damn good.
4. Very concentrated.

What else can you ask for?


I just trier HM rinse for the first time and I agree, it does smell pretty good and you only need 16oz per 5 gal tank!
 

Lyman

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Shawn, here is my problem with "acid" rinses. A little history first. 10 years ago I got certified in carpet cleaning by doug hieferman. A great instructor but also sold bridgepoint products. So when I left the class and his shop, I left with gallons of green acid rinse. I would prespay, aggitate, rinse with a bidgepoint product and then spray the carpet with acid rinse and then dry extract. As the years past, know I am prespraying with powermax and soft water rinsing. There are a lot of us that are doing this now. The latest craze is one plus one equals three when using one companies products. Were I live one plus one equals two... What I would like to see is facts and pics to validate your info. I have done my own testing with rinses in an acid form and alkaline form and soft water. Todays machines with greenies improvements recover more water then ever. So high flow water doesn't over wet carpets. I have not seen any acid side rinse that "encapsulate". So, What I am trying to say is after 14 years of cleaning is, I have to see things work before I buy in to theory.
 

Brian R

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I will take a PM from Shawn on the best prespray and rinse combo.
Help a brutha out will ya? :mrgreen:
 
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Brian Robison said:
...the best prespray and rinse combo.

There is no "magic bullet" combination.

First, it should be explained that anyone who even chooses to use an acidic rinse agent is doing so specifically because they have chosen to use a certain philosophy for cleaning their client's carpet, which would not necessarily be anything close to universal.

One chooses an acid rinse as their in-tank cleaner because the particular cleaning situation meets a set of criteria set by the customer or the situation.

The match might look like this:

The customer wants:
1) "squeaky clean" with no potential soil attractive residues- stays cleaner longer
2) soft fiber hand

The situation:
1) carpet is able to be "cleaned" and soils emulsified with only the prespray, since a good rinse adds little to cleaning.
2) Carpet is not terribly soiled
3) Customer wants protector. A good rinse facilitates good protector/fiber bonding

The cleaner wants:
1) Mild descaling of the chemical and hose system


This is but one of a few scenarios where an acidic/surfactant rinsing fiber rinse methodology would make the best sense.

In most cases like this scenario, you would select a high-performance prespray like Ultrapac or Zone-Perfect and rinse with a good rinse like HM Clear water rinse, MasterBlend's Clear Water Rinse, or BP's Green Balance Neutralizer Rinse.

I have to re-iterate that what I wrote was a guideline recommendation so that your choices could be made with better information, and the right questions for your supplier. It matters far less what I might mention, versus the right way to choose yourself. What I mention is limited to my exposure, and have no doubt that the industry has many good and poor products of which I am unaware and/or do not mention.
 

B&BGaryC

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Lyman said:
Shawn, here is my problem with "acid" rinses. A little history first. 10 years ago I got certified in carpet cleaning by doug hieferman. A great instructor but also sold bridgepoint products. So when I left the class and his shop, I left with gallons of green acid rinse. I would prespay, aggitate, rinse with a bidgepoint product and then spray the carpet with acid rinse and then dry extract. As the years past, know I am prespraying with powermax and soft water rinsing. There are a lot of us that are doing this now. The latest craze is one plus one equals three when using one companies products. Were I live one plus one equals two... What I would like to see is facts and pics to validate your info. I have done my own testing with rinses in an acid form and alkaline form and soft water. Todays machines with greenies improvements recover more water then ever. So high flow water doesn't over wet carpets. I have not seen any acid side rinse that "encapsulate". So, What I am trying to say is after 14 years of cleaning is, I have to see things work before I buy in to theory.

I only run ten flow, and this all could just be in my head, but I notice softer fluffier carpet (Yes, I said fluffy) when I use end zone as a rinse as apposed to power point (Liquid point blue). I never feel right using water as a rinse unless it's for a product like UPS...
 

Brian R

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So far the best I have found is Bridgepoint
Zone perfect or Flex for prespray (this is the CA. Flex)
and Prolon to rinse.

Carpets are soft and clean with no resoil issues. I have done it on my house plenty of times and have checked out carpets on repeats and no problems.

Carpets are easier to clean the second time than the first time usually. Is that because I left residue that is "protecting" the carpet...or am I leaving it in a condition where it is not resoiling as quickly.
Generally the carpet is not as soiled but that may be because the first time I clean it, it has been years...then the second, it is only 6 months to a year because of my fabulous customer retention practices. :mrgreen:
 

Loren Egland

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Loren Egland wrote:
Powders or liquids for rinse agents?
Shawn Forsythe wrote:
What is your definition of "rinse agent"? The same as mine, or any extraction emulsifier?


I realized I didn't get this answered. By rinse agent I meant the in tank cleaner run through the truck mount. Would the slight residue left behind vacuum up easier if it starts out as a powder? It sure seems more economical.
 

ruff

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Shawn Forsythe said:
[quote="Brian Robison":1geb7rqq]...the best prespray and rinse combo.

There is no "magic bullet" combination.

First, it should be explained that anyone who even chooses to use an acidic rinse agent is doing so specifically because they have chosen to use a certain philosophy for cleaning their client's carpet, which would not necessarily be anything close to universal.

One chooses an acid rinse as their in-tank cleaner because the particular cleaning situation meets a set of criteria set by the customer or the situation.

The match might look like this:

The customer wants:
1) "squeaky clean" with no potential soil attractive residues- stays cleaner longer
2) soft fiber hand

The situation:
1) carpet is able to be "cleaned" and soils emulsified with only the prespray, since a good rinse adds little to cleaning.
2) Carpet is not terribly soiled
3) Customer wants protector. A good rinse facilitates good protector/fiber bonding

The cleaner wants:
1) Mild descaling of the chemical and hose system


This is but one of a few scenarios where an acidic/surfactant rinsing fiber rinse methodology would make the best sense.

In most cases like this scenario, you would select a high-performance prespray like Ultrapac or Zone-Perfect and rinse with a good rinse like HM Clear water rinse, MasterBlend's Clear Water Rinse, or BP's Green Balance Neutralizer Rinse.

I have to re-iterate that what I wrote was a guideline recommendation so that your choices could be made with better information, and the right questions for your supplier. It matters far less what I might mention, versus the right way to choose yourself. What I mention is limited to my exposure, and have no doubt that the industry has many good and poor products of which I am unaware and/or do not mention.[/quote:1geb7rqq]
All the customer wants is:
A clean carpet, that will stay clean as long as possible and no unhealthy chemicals and residue. They also want the cleaning to be as hassle free as possible and that the carpet will dry fast.

That's it.

All the rest is marketing fluff.

If it helps one market their services better, that is a smart marketing choice. Do not confuse it with real performance.
If it makes the cleaner or the client feel better about themselves, then that is a whole new subject.

Acid rinses do not leave the carpet cleaner. They add more chemicals, so after the cleaning there are more chemicals left in the carpet, not less. No difference whatsoever in re-soiling. I used acid rinses for years. I compared re-soiling in areas where I used an acid rinse and where I used just an alkaline rinse, no difference in look or re-soiling. Experimented in my home and quite a few client's places. Less re-appearing stains with alkaline rinses.

What acid rinses do best is pad the manufacturers and suppliers bottom line.
INDEED they do.
 

Greenie

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I still think an acid rinse with alkaline properties (actually cleans) is the best silver bullet, the brighter, softer, squeeky clean aspects are just bonus.
 

ruff

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Greenie said:
I still think an acid rinse with alkaline properties (actually cleans) is the best silver bullet, the brighter, softer, squeeky clean aspects are just bonus.
Ha???!!!!!!!!!???????

Is that an alkaline rinse with acidic qualities?
Or and acid rinse with alkaline qualities?

Sounds a lot like the glideless glide.
 

Rambo

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We are on our 8th truck and finally settled in with Cobb's Powermaxx prespray and Judsons 02 rinse. Works for us. did I mention we use the Greenhorn wand w/10 flow.
 

Bob Savage

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I have used the ALL FIBER RINSE product exclusively in our truckmounts for a few years now, and like everything about them for leaving the hand of the clean carpet much softer and more residue free.

Thanks, Shawn, for your well thought-out post.
 

Greenie

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Ofer, I thought that would get an eye roll or two.

I mean a NEUTRAL rinse that has all the bennys of an Alk cleaner and an acid Rinse...in one product.

Judson O2
 

hogjowl

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The eye roll should be reserved for Ray's post. For a guy who made fun of TM operators for years, Ray has suddenly, with the purchase of one actual TM, gone from Mr. VLM to an 8 TM, operation overnight.

What's the meaning of the word is ... ?
 

Rambo

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Sir Loin of Pork, let me 'xplain it to ya. I have owned 7 truckmounts in the past, then I went to 100% VLM. Then we purchased another truckmount and are now 80% truckmount and 20% VLM. Making fun of truckmount was always tounge in cheek. I am the only person who showed up at the first VLM meeting in Macon, Ga with a truckmount. Congrats on your Vortex purchase, I would have bought your "old Truckmount" 2 months ago because I like the way you take care of equipment, but I'm all spent out right now.
 

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