CRI Seal of Approval, Five Years Later

[green research]

What's with all the NASA innuendo? If they can't even be completely honest with that, what does it say about any information that come of of there. :shock:

Conjecture: perhaps CRI signed a Space Act Agreement that included promoting NASA as part of NASA's commercial spin-off program, which helps justify NASA's existence to the taxpayers. In other words, maybe more people will be happy to support the space program if it has tangible monetary use.

 

[green research]

I have one major problem with any program that'll be ever made. No matter all the money spent on testing on soil removal and blah blah blah, ect.

When it comes down to it, it doesn't matter the machine, product, whatever; because a failure in results or unsatifactory results is always going to end with the USER and NOT the equipment. Or atleast most if not all of the time because that is one VARIABLE that will never become constant. In order to have a true scientific experiment you need to have a CONSTANT variable.

IMO laboratory testing with never out-do real world testing.

However, the concept is admirable.

Thank you for bringing this up. This is a really important point--the variable issue. And I agree with you that laboratory testing won't out-do real world testing. But if people want meaningful testing, variables have to be controlled.

I agree with you almost about a failure in results being due to the user and not the equipment... let me throw this out: what about when a customer has let a carpet go so long that you go in and clean the best you can for the money they're willing to give you, and then you have to go?

An unsatisfactory result is then simply due to infrequent cleaning, and not the cleaner and not the equipment. Do you agree?

What if you just had the chance to come back to hit it again? Wouldn't that likely satisfy things? And (dare to dream) what if you could then go in quarterly or whatever... betcha there wouldn't be any more problems.

We all know this though; I know I'm preaching to the choir. I bring it up because if fingers are going to start pointing when somebody's not happy with how their carpet looks, maybe it shouldn't be at the carpet, the machine, OR the person using the machine... I think we should think more about frequency.

 

[Eric Valentine]

[quote="Steven Hoodlebrink":t59z0oy4]I have one major problem with any program that'll be ever made. No matter all the money spent on testing on soil removal and blah blah blah, ect.

When it comes down to it, it doesn't matter the machine, product, whatever; because a failure in results or unsatifactory results is always going to end with the USER and NOT the equipment. Or atleast most if not all of the time because that is one VARIABLE that will never become constant. In order to have a true scientific experiment you need to have a CONSTANT variable.

IMO laboratory testing with never out-do real world testing.

However, the concept is admirable.

Thank you for bringing this up. This is a really important point--the variable issue. And I agree with you that laboratory testing won't out-do real world testing. But if people want meaningful testing, variables have to be controlled.

I agree with you almost about a failure in results being due to the user and not the equipment... let me throw this out: what about when a customer has let a carpet go so long that you go in and clean the best you can for the money they're willing to give you, and then you have to go?

An unsatisfactory result is then simply due to infrequent cleaning, and not the cleaner and not the equipment. Do you agree?

What if you just had the chance to come back to hit it again? Wouldn't that likely satisfy things? And (dare to dream) what if you could then go in quarterly or whatever... betcha there wouldn't be any more problems.

We all know this though; I know I'm preaching to the choir. I bring it up because if fingers are going to start pointing when somebody's not happy with how their carpet looks, maybe it shouldn't be at the carpet, the machine, OR the person using the machine... I think we should think more about frequency.[/quote:t59z0oy4]
I think Steven was meaning when the carpet isn't beat to s#!t from being improperly maintained. If the soil is able to be removed, the extractor is running correctly, proper cleaning solutions, and proper methods are used, then the soil should be removed. If everything else is good, but the wrong cleaning solution, wrong method, or wrongly used method are done, then it is the CLEANER at fault.

 

[Hoody]

I do agree there. Not to side track this thread, but we all know that is where educating and prequalifying the clean/job is important.

There are only a few reasons why carpet is not maintained properly. First off financials for the consumer. But I also know that its a lack of communication/education on the mills, retailers, and sadly the cleaners. And lastly how we've(industry) let what we do become more a commodity rather than necessity, the consumer will continue to buy based on price and not quality. I don't think we'll ever win, with the market saturation that we have for cleaners, but we can try. That is why the mills will point the fingers at the cleaners, and the cleaners will point back.

I know the CRI, SOA, IICRC are trying, but it looks to be an uphill battle to me.

 

[KevinL]

Are they really trying to get the info out to the consumers regarding frequency and proper cleaning? I'm not seeing any information passed out to new carpet buyers as it should be.

 

[sweendogg]

Alot of these points is exactly why we decided to enter cleaning as a retail store. We wanted our quality products to be cared for properly, and if we provided the exceptional service our town lacked in care for quality products, AND we educated our customers about proper care and frequency of care, there would be no excuse for poorly performing carpets other than the customer simply did not follow our advice and thus the problem belongs to the customer and can not be blamed on poorly performing products.

 

[harryhides]

David, that makes a lot of sense to me and for the long term future of your business.

However many Retailers and manufacturers seem to think that if the carpet does not last that long then the customer will be back to buy wood, laminate or whatever often products with a higher profit margin.
(Same goes for some cleaners that purposely use extra detergent to ensure being called back more often.)

What is your response to that line of reasoning and do you have any numbers like with repeat or referral business since you started the maintenance division ?

 

[sweendogg]

For us Carpet has always been our bread and butter and while we offer all styles of floorcovering from higher end wood floors, ceramic porcelain and alot of different types of stone. (and lots of area rugs as well about 800 on display right now.) We have always been known for quality carpet. While we do quite a few wood, stone and tile jobs and sell alot of area rugs, we do most of our business on carpets that if properly cared for last from 10 to 50 years (if its a woven piece and a stuborn customer who refuses to accept that the carpet has gone out style!) So we can tell when a carpet is being maintained well as we won't see the customer for 10 to 15 years unless we doing other work.

That gives a lot of time for the customer to forget us so cleaning keeps the customers products looking great with a business they can trust and we keep our name in front of them as well as the additional revenue.

Unfortunatly there are alot of stores that do just as you described Tony.

 

[Larry Cobb]

Debbie;

Have you researched any other potential "soil testing" done by other labs.

Shell did some "oily soil" testing years ago, by using oil that was rendered slightly radioactive.

They then checked after cleaning for the amount of "radio-tagged" oil left in the samples.

It seemed to me to be a valid and repeatable method of testing soil removal.

And as any cleaner understands, oily soil IS the most difficult to remove in extraction cleaning.

It is also the soil under-represented in the SOA testing.

If you are interested, I believe I still have some reports of the original testing.

Thanks for presenting your arguments. I hope they will institute some changes in the CRI procedure.

Larry Cobb
Cobb Carpet Supply

 

[randy]

To me the merits of the CRI SOA program has always been more of an legal issue than a scientific one.
Auto makers once tried to require that maintenance be performed by their dealers, they lost in federal court.
They then attempted to require certified mechanics for all maintenance in order to maintain the warranty, they again lost in Federal court. When Jiffy lube and other quick oil change businesses started opening up all over America, they again tried to place illegal warranty requirements on consumers & service providers and it cost them millions.

The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act 15 USC 2301 enacted in 1975 and several Federal Anti-trust laws specifically prohibit what the carpet manufacturers are attempting through the CRI's SOA program.

There are many disadvantages to residing the the DC metropolitan area, however occasionally I do find it makes a few things easier. A few weeks ago I met with the counsel to the assistant attorney general of the anti-trust division (each department within Justice has it's own assistant Attorney General ). We talked for about 45 minutes about what has occurred within our industry and my concerns about it. He openly expressed shock that carpet makers would attempt this.

In a few days a P.O. box in DC is going to be set up for the collection of any input you may want to have attached to a formal complaint regarding the SOA program that will be hand delivered the the assistant attorney general for anti-trust. Submitting a complaint letter, white paper or brief on the issue to the Justice Department will in no way waive our future legal remedies should involved parties decide to pursue class action litigation.


Please note : this has nothing to do with pursuing the Mills in private legal action, it is only a formal complaint to the Justice Department.

Any current warranty information that requires certified technicians, approved chemicals or equipment in order to maintain warranties is of vital importance.

 

[Mikey P]

I've been glowing at night since the day I visited Larry chemical room..



Debbie, just how does this effect a guy like me with 1.5 trucks, lots of loyal clients and loads of referral sources that have never heard of any of this, retailers included?

 

[Hoody]

Randy brings a good point. When Mohawk tried to run the Mohawk Floor Essential program in the industry - It had a lot of popularity but then shut down very quickly. Having A LOT of involvement in that program myself, being associated/working for Millers I had great hopes of it. The plan was to use "authorized service centers" to only be the ones to maintain the warranties. But after finding out the whole concept was illegal well - it went to the waste side.

 

[randy]

You know Steven, the thing that blows my mind the most is I hear that one of the largest mills in the country never even had legal review their new warranty. Amazing. Apparently they assumed our entire industry was dumb enough to fall for this. Just another case of manufacturers underestimating our trade.

I predict that the illegal SOA /certification requirements will be over and gone within a year. Magically it will just disappear from warranties. The whole mess came out of one particular trade association where the leaders (at the time) had a cozy relationship with someone at Shaw.

I wonder if those individuals have given any thought to the civil remedies available under the RICO Act and to their personal exposure. All it takes is one predicate act and you can sue all involved parties personally. There are both civil (you get sued) and criminal (you pay a huge fine & or go to prison) sections within the RICO ACT. One of the attorneys I originally met with said he could see both coming into play in this situation. People forget , when you violate anti-trust laws or Federal Statues, you are committing a crime. When you get together a group for the purpose of planning,directing or executing that violation of Federal Law a separate charge of conspiracy comes into play.

It's going to get really interesting.

 

[Fletch]

I can't believe anything that Debbie has to say: she doesn't wear a white lab coat! Besides, the SOA people all wear lab coats! A whole room of people wearing lab coats is all I need to know, even if they were all given one right before the picture was taken! It's SCIENCE!

 

[green research]

And how well do other experts in the field feel that XRF technology works for measuring soil in a carpet?

In the XRF field?

I talked to a lot of people, from the EPA, to geologists, to people at the Smithsonian, to XRF manufacturers (the ones that would call me back), to European professors, to grad students, to municipal health departments, to epidemiologists... whoever. All of them had multiple reasons why it can't work the way it's set up. I also did an exhaustive literature review which agreed.

That being said, however, people used to think that the earth is flat... it sure seems like it is sometimes, just like it seems like a Rug Doctor shouldn't beat out a truck mount. It just doesn't make sense to our brains. But that doesn't mean our brains are right. Heck I've come around to believing that the earth is round.

So what science dictates you do when you wonder about something is start off by asking for validation for it in various ways instead of just accepting it or rejecting it.

Look, it IS actually round!

That picture is meaningful evidence that validates the roundness of the earth. Round like a plate, anyway. But is it a SPHERE? Can't answer that with just one fuzzy picture swiped off the internet -- you need other evidence, like seeing earth's shadow during lunar eclipses, or sailing for so long that finally you end up back home and get to say Hey I didn't fall off! Now I'm convinced that the earth is indeed roughly spherical.

No, other XRF experts don't think that carpet is a good sample for XRF. But they can't say it's not; all they can say is that if you want to get useful results, you need to do X, Y, and Z, and if you don't, then you need an extra pile of proof.

 

[green research]

I can't believe anything that Debbie has to say: she doesn't wear a white lab coat!

I do have a gray lab coat, but it says "Chuck" on it. Does that count?

 

[Jim Pemberton]

I think that handles the "ray gun".

So: Carpet or dirt?

 

[green research]

Debbie;

Have you researched any other potential "soil testing" done by other labs.

Shell did some "oily soil" testing years ago, by using oil that was rendered slightly radioactive... If you are interested, I believe I still have some reports of the original testing.

Yes, but I haven't seen this Shell work! I'd love to see it if possible Larry; thank you.

 

[truckmount girl]

This has been excellent work Debbie and Jim, I'm so sorry I've been so distracted with life lately I haven't participated as much as I would have liked.

A question was raised about the NASA designation....come on now, we all know what that is about...positioning. Those who purchase the right to use the ABSOLUTELY MEANINGLESS - yes meaningless, there are no performance standards for it - NASA designation get preferred placement in the CSP listings. It's expensive. Notice if you peruse the list of CSP's who has bought it? Franchises. Who is the vast majority of CSP's on the list.....franchises.

CRI/SOA is just one more way for franchises to use their money to influence and manipulate both the public perception and the industry in their favor. They can pay people to camp out there and perform dozens of tests, to massage their "systems" to get the results they desire, which have no relevance to real life or their actual practices in the field. Owner/Ops can't do that. Small manufacturers can't do that. There aren't even follow ups done to see that products and systems tested are actually identical to those being used and sold in the field. There is no accountability to the program, the "systems" designation allows for anyone with enough time and money and people to write a protocol which will favor them and gets them the designation they want....and if they don't, they just re-do it.

If you are in restoration you've seen the influence franchises have on insurance companies and adjusters...and it is NOT to the betterment of work done.

So basically it's just a way for franchises and large manufacturers to position themselves advantageously in the market....and stick it to the little guy.

NASA is whoring out their logo with no meaning as far as performance. CRI is whoring out their testing by catering to "systems" and franchises who spend the money, mills are whoring out their warranties and products to the mega-retailers who purchase their wares and dictate it's quality and price....and it's planned obsolescence...many of these mills and retailers are in bed financially with many of the cleaning franchises who are the top representatives in the CSP's or have accepted their "influence" in much the same way big business lobbyists influence government.

We are all witnessing the death of small mom and pop enterprise in this country and if you don't think it will ever effect you, you are wrong. It is slow and insidious but relentless.

Take care,
Lisa

 

[Fletch]

"I do have a gray lab coat, but it says "Chuck" on it. Does that count?

I don't think that it is the right color if you ever go to the Whitehouse, but my guess is that you actually have a legitimate reason for having a lab coat; not just issued one for a photo opportunity!

Good work that you have done Debbie! I'm just poking fun at the lab coat issue and not you!

 

[LisaWagnerCRS]

Jim and Debbie - thank you for what I believe has been one of the most informative, and surprisingly polite, threads I've seen here. Nice work. And I appreciate all the responses to the questions.

On another note on the point that this is an evil scheme to kill of the independents - the fact is that the "big boys" do not know how to market and thrive in a struggling economy any better than the small guys do. They are looking for an easy path to try to find more jobs to feed their families.

And CRI - is a big bureaucracy, and just like the government, has a small well of creativity to pull from, and so again is trying to create money from more regulations/requirements rather than doing what we "small independents" do - which is create MORE value in order to receive money in exchange from our clients.

If we do not deliver a "wow" - we don't get paid. Period. Larger organizations do not suffer that type of immediate accountability. So it keep us always innovating while the larger organizations just try to regulate their way out of lowering revenue.

Piranha Members are creating their own warranties - as part of their maintenance programs - to make this issue disappear completely. Think about it - if you properly care for a homeowner's carpet, and are in there every 12 or 6 months for cleaning - wouldn't you be willing to back up your work and guarantee the life of that carpet for 20 or so years? If only YOU were cleaning it... and cleaning it that often?

All we eed to do it think outside the box, and we win. The independents are never going to lose this game, unless they refuse to innovate and get good at it. We are having our best year ever... it's not rocket science, it's just good marketing and great work.

Lisa

 

[green research]

Debbie, just how does this effect a guy like me with 1.5 trucks, lots of loyal clients and loads of referral sources that have never heard of any of this, retailers included?

Mike, you pressed a button. Sorry in advance for the length of this post.

What if what's in your "1.5 trucks" is not all-approved up and down by everybody it needs to be? So what, right? I might say "so what" too in the short run. (Cue music.)

But you are connected to your customers, your suppliers or distributors, and your products' manufacturers, and you chose those connections after a LOT of hard work. However, the more somebody else controls your industry, the less free you are to choose your connections.

For instance, say you have a non-SOA truck mount or system. It works great. You love it, your customers are happy. One day, you go to your supplier to get a part that you used to be able to get right then. But now you're told that they don't stock them anymore: not enough sales on it so it's not worth stocking regularly. But you're welcome to use their phone if you like to call the manufacturer to order it. Connection #1 breaking.

You spend ten minutes on hold with the manufacturer, trying to figure out with a new temp who is obviously still in high school what the part number is. Where did the good customer service people go? The temp finally comes back only to tell you that they're backordered and it will be a couple of weeks. Thank goodness you still have .5 trucks you can use in the meantime to do your jobs! Hope nothing goes wrong with that half a truck. You slam the phone down. Connection #2 breaking.

You shrug and go to get your favorite non-certified juice. The price has gone up. Dang. The price has gone up on the juice not because the maker had to pay CRI to get tested -- the price went up because the maker did NOT get the SOA and sales are down because of it. They have to raise the price to stay profitable. Your margins were already pretty tight, and now you'll have to think about raising your prices again if you want to keep using that juice. You have to decide between a product you know works for you and your customers, or starting over with experimenting. Connection #3 breaking.

While you're standing in the distributor warehouse, staring at different bottles and thinking about switching, a truck with logos all over it parks across the street from your customer's house and she sees it. She's happy with you, but times are tighter than they were, and she can't help but wonder what the person in that truck with logos all over it charges. She doesn't care what the logos are, but they sure look professional so there's no harm in checking the price... Connection #4 breaking.

Over time, the connections you chose crumble. What choices are left? The ones that other people decided you would be left with.

Okay now I'm going to flip it around -- say you're the same guy with 1.5 trucks, loads of customers, and loads of referrals, but this time you've spent the money to have ALL the certifications and more than anybody would ever need. You are a marketing superstar, and you can confidently walk in to anywhere and do a dang fine job and not worry about a thing. Comfortable place to be.

So why should this guy care about any of this?

Because it's not right.

If that's not enough, how about: when doors like this are opened and left open, they set precedents that allow others to do the same. Maybe next year your marketing will be all wrong and you'll be starting over or worse. Or, how about: when you look in the mirror, you'd like to know that when your customers call, it's because you're awesome and not because they have to.

Okay that was a bit heavy. Somebody say something funny.

 

[Lee Stockwell]

To some extent that's happening already...

 

[sweendogg]

Two guys walk into a bar... third one ducks!

:mrgreen:

 

[sweendogg]

Some people have brought up a lot of warranty issues and that companies like the soa, big mills and such can't require certification to perform work because of past problems.

However, you have a government setting requirements for other professions like electrical, plumbing, requiring permits for building, requiring certified inspections for all kinda of different building and manufacturing services.

Yet they won't let an industry govern itself to protect its products.. granted most of the government issues protect personal saftey in a lot of those issues and we are probably better off not having the current soa type certificaitons in place while some industry standards are still a great idea to have around.

But the problem that raises in my head is not that the government can say that the industry has no right to implement specific requirements for its products, but if the government could easily decide tomorow that another government agency is now responcible for all of the standards, certificaiton and envforcement of the cleaning industry and there wouldn't be a lot of of reprecussion action taken by the industry.

 

[Able 1]

[quote="green research] So what, right? I might say "so what" too in the short run. (Cue music.)

This one. :shock:
k]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwSg3a4lxzok]

 

[KevinL]

Did you hear about the two old ladies standing outside the retirement home having a smoke when it starts to rain. The one lady pulls out a condom and bites off the end and slips it over her cigarette. Her friend says what are you doing? She says I'm keeping my cig dry. Her friend says well what is that? She says it's a condom. Her friend says where did you get it? She says down at the drug store. The friend thinks that's a pretty good idea as it does rain often while they are out smoking so she goes down to the drug store and tells the druggist in a load voice as she is hard of hearing" I NEED SOME CONDOMS". Well the druggist is a little shocked but he composes himself and asks the lady,"what kind would you like?" She says it doesn't matter what kind











as long as they fit on a camel.

He faints.

 

[green research]

I'm officially falling behind on some posts here since you guys have brought up so many things but for now all I can say is, Keith: BRILLIANT with the Metallica.

 

[truckmount girl]

Of the 978 Certified Service Providers, at least 640+ are franchises. What does that say about this program and who it is geared/engineered/manipulated to benefit?

Take care,
Lisa

 

[Mikey P]

I'm gonna start a company that certifies vinyl logos for their authenticity.