Divert Exhaust vs Divert Solution

[Johnny]

Seems it would be simpler and more effective to control solution temperature by diverting solution around all HX units (exhaust, blower, engine coolant) with a mix valve and short length of solution hose than to divert exhaust around only the exhaust HX with an exhaust diverter unit and exhaust plumbing.

Another benefit should be cold solution at low flow for cleaning delicate fabrics.

Would HX units overheat with less or no solution flowing through them?

Is there a practical thermostat-controlled mix valve available? (A manual valve should work in conjunction with a Dema-controlled tank-dump.)

Would this be a viable alternate mod for a machine without an exhaust diverter vs an exhaust diverter? (Water-cooled engine.)

How do units that advertise temperature control without exhaust diverter or tank dumping work?

 

[Duane Oxley]

Hey, John...

Actually, what you're saying is the same thing that many owners of HX systems have been saying: "Why does this have to be so complicated?".

In truth, it doesn't. And in a few weeks, I'll be revealing my "take" on that in more detail (based upon a patent application that I'm just now finishing up...).

There are, as you said, two basic ways that exchanger systems regulate temperature... bypassing either heated solution (to dump heated water and therefore allow for unheated water to enter the system and be heated as a result) and bypassing exhaust gas (regulating the amount of heat applied to the solution in the first place.

Regulating via dumping solution is reliable and tried- and - true... but it has a major drawback... it fills the recovery tank up waaaay too quickly. (It's not a drawback if you don't have a recovery tank though...)

Regulating via exhaust gas diversion is limited as well, in a way in particular, that I can't get into at this point in time, because of the patent situation I mentioned above...

But the answer to the question, "Why does this have to be so complicated?". Is simple... It doesn't. But it seems to be made more complicated than it has to be, in order to be better compatible with dealer / distributor support. In other words, there seems to be a prevailing philosophy, that you should have to be dependent upon your distributor for support. That's o.k. if you have quality support and never need to... or want to... do maintenance yourself... But it's not uncommon for a simple thing like belt replacement... or a hose replacement... to take 2 hours on some of the more complex systems available today.

(I had a guy call me two weeks before Christmas, with a nationally- known system that features a Nissan motor. He needed a hose replaced and his distributor told him that they could get to him on Jan. 3rd! He purchased the hose from them to do it himself... but couldn't. He was desperate and was very thankful that I'd do the work for him. It took 2 solid hours and special 90- degree wrenches, to be able to get the job done... which included removing the starter for access...)

I've stated many times that "Whoever designed this, should have to work on it for punishment.", regarding most of the HX systems I've seen. (I changed a water- cooled motor out in one about a year ago... It took 8 hours... and much of the plumbing of the system had to be disconnected in the process...)

So my answer is simple: "It simply doesn't have to be that complicated."

You're hitting around some ideas that I've taken a look at in the course of designing the two HX systems that I've recently completed. Be patient... the answer is on the way...

 

[Greenie]

I see the answer as being larger mix tanks, and a steady flow of recirculated water.

That should be sufficient, but I can see one more item to make it full proof, a second radiator used just for bypassed water.

Somebody will use this idea, I'll be looking in my mailbox for a check.

 

[Lee Stockwell]

split it with me...

Re: How can I cool my TM down????
Posted By Lee Stockwell on 7/17/2006 at 11:38 PM

Run the bypass either on the ground as Mike noted (we do just that on a 405) or if you need to run it back to the solution tank first run it thru a radiator cooled by an electric fan as needed.

 

[Duane Oxley]

Great, Greenie...

I hope everyone else thinks the same way... That will ensure that my idea stands out as being a simple and unique as I know it to be... 8)

 

[Lee Stockwell]

Fox truckmounts use a very simple (and backwards to conventional wisdom) system.

 

[Jimmy L]

Duane ....and that is why I will never buy a Prochem again!

 

[Greenie]

Well maybe Duane can teach some old dogs new tricks.

This industry is all about reinventing, could it be something really new?

Lee, if these ideas occur to us, why not the mainstream, or maybe they do, but why not production units? Surely these simple ideas work?

 

[Bob Foster]

What kind of temperatures at the wand are we talking about with one of these systems?

 

[R W]

I prefer the solution bypass as opposed to exhaust bypass. I've had experience with both, and the exhaust bypass that I run has a tendency to overheat in hot weather. Plus, it has too many wear-out parts. If your running dual wands, and are moving at a good rate, you don't bypass that much water.

 

[Duane Oxley]

Bob F.

As far as temperature, I'll be able to speak with more experience about it in about 3 weeks, regarding the entry level system (Kohler 20 / Tuthill #006), but I feel certain that 180 ATW at 1.5 GPM is not unreasonable to expect. (That's a bit more than a Little Giant #3 does, actually, to give a reference point...)

On the subsequent systems, the principles at work are very different and feature a much more efficient means of heat transfer. They'll cost more and generate more heat. I fully expect another 30 degrees rise, using the same, "entry- level" components of 20 Kohler / 36 Blower configuration. The first systems dump solution in order to regulate temperature... The subsequent ones do not dump at all.

The reason to produce 2 lines of dissimilar equipment is related to cost vs. retail. There is a serious market for "entry level" systems out there... systems in the $10,000 and under range, complete with accessories such as hose, reels, wand, etc. Unfortunately, the systems in that bracket are virtually always under- powered and under- perform as a result. I know without a doubt that I can make a system that will seriously "walk all over" any entry level system I've seen to date... and I've seen the ones made by most every manufacturer out there.

At the same time, there is a market for a seasoned cleaning professional.. One who wants to be able to turn the heating part of his system "OFF" and do water damage for 4 hours, etc. And an entry level system simply can't do that, due to it's pricing limitations...

We'll see in due time, but as a manufacturer of "High Heat / High Flow" propane systems for over 10 years, I'm not about to sell out now, in order to make a buck...

High heat at solid flow rates is the goal, as always.

 

[Lee Stockwell]

25 hp 4007 not exactly underpowered. got five good years on them.

 

[Duane Oxley]

"Unfortunately, the systems in that bracket are virtually always under- powered and under- perform as a result."

25 hp 4007 not exactly underpowered. got five good years on them.

Hi, Lee...

I'm speaking mainly of the major manufacturers when I use the term, "entry- level". Their idea of entry level systems has historically been #33 blowers, 16 to 18 H.P. motors, and #4 jets in their wands, etc., in order to lay claim to higher heat levels.

And of course, I suspect that you know I wasn't referring to a 25/47 system as "under- powered", or entry- level. And unless things have changed, that system isn't the smallest component one that Nick makes.

... but as an "aside", I don't see huge components (4 cyl. motors / #5 blowers, etc.) as being as necessary as it seems, to produce decent heat...