Do you agree with this guys veiw on pre vacuuming?

[Mikey P]

The Pre-Vac Myth
Posted By d-day on 12/14/2010 at 9:25 PM

I have used Sanitaires for over ten years, and it is a good vacuum cleaner indeed. However, I no longer pre-vacuum unless the customer requests it and pays additional for it.

Why?

Well, do this little experiment for yourself: Run your Sanitaire (or whatever vacuum of your choice) over a room of carpet. Then pre-spray lightly. Then run a Counter Rotating Brush (CRB) machine over the pre-sprayed carpet.

You will be surprised to discover that

1) your pre-Vacuuming has not removed nearly as much hair, dust, lint, etc. as you think it does, as it leaves most of this debris in the carpet (and I mean most as in 80%+) and

2) Dry soil removal is not most effectively accomplished when dry. Dry soil removal is best accomplished by lightly pre-spraying and then removing it via CRB.

The assertion that dry soil removal is best effected by pre-vacuuming is simply an IICRC/Vendor created myths designed to sell you vacuum cleaners.

If you are using a TM, then like it or not, the dirt and debris that you see in your vacuum bag/dust cup will be removed by your TM, and there is no need to pre-vac.

If you do not believe this to be so, then run the tests yourself using an external in-line filter in your TM vacuum hose - Seeing is believing, after all.

I recommend that you do the test yourself, rather than rely upon "tests" conducted by the CRI, IICRC, or any other profit- and power-motivated, self appointed, self-anointed industry board.

If you really want to maximize dry soil removal, dust, hair, lint, etc, then pre-spray and run a CRB prior to extraction.

That having been said, if I were to show up to clean carpet and said carpet were covered with kitty litter and bird seed, I would use a dry vacuum to remove said kitty litter and bird seed prior to pre-spraying and running my CRB.

Now, before any newly minted kool-ade drinking, IICRC certified newbie wing-nut comes out swinging and slinging the IICRC generated mantra about dry-soil removal, I say "Do the tests yourself." I was IICRC certified (techs and firm) for the better part of a decade. I've been a wand slinger since one week out of high school in 1986. I don't need some twenty-three year old unemployed would-be accountant turned carpet cleaner lecture me on the "dry soil/pre-vac" blah blah blah.

It is a myth. A lie. A deceit.

Carry on.

 

[juniorc82]

Dude ron werner is gonna issue a hit via canadian death squad

 

[TimP]

Dude ron werner is gonna issue a hit via canadian death squad[/quote

I think if he actually issued "hits" I'd already be gone.....

 

[Ron K]

How about are we to Lazy to test it out?




Great Mikeyfest test.

 

[Jim Martin]

I agree with him to a point....but..I pre vac every job....and weather I fill my vacuum half way or all the way...it is still less crap that I have to deal with clogging up a filter and causing me to lose some vacuum........

 

[Brian R]

I agree with him to a point....but..I pre vac every job....and weather I fill my vacuum half way or all the way...it is still less crap that I have to deal with clogging up a filter and causing me to lose some vacuum........

Great post. I think that says it all.

 

[Jim Martin]

[quote="Jim Martin":kx1va1jc]I agree with him to a point....but..I pre vac every job....and weather I fill my vacuum half way or all the way...it is still less crap that I have to deal with clogging up a filter and causing me to lose some vacuum........

Great post. I think that says it all.[/quote:kx1va1jc]



it's the .biz in me coming out again..........

 

[RIP IT]

Pre vacuuming is only one of the steps in impressing the customer, particularly when they see the crap filling up in the Dyson before you even turn the twuckmount on.

I don't care if you vacuum or not. People can convince themselves they are right no matter what the argument is.


Along with an inline filter it keeps the cleaning of my waste tank filters to something I have to do every second week instead of every day.

 

[Zee]

Blah blah blah.... This guy sure sounds like he is selling CRB machines instead of vacuum cleaners!

No wonder his tests came up bad. He was using a sanitare. :-)

I still believe prevacing is very imortant- on most jobs.

Last night I had a 700sqft small condo to clean (empty). Over an hour just vacuuming the powder and crap that was not visible if I just looked at the carpet.

Momentum was emptied 4 times...

Don't tell me just prespraying and CRB the carpet will take care of that much crap hiding.

That was gona be a wicking nightmare if I didn't spend that much time and effort vacuuming.

And my name is not even "ronwerner"

 

[Loren Egland]

Wow, a voice of reason. Who have thought? Mud cleans easier than dry soil! If it didn't, there would be little need for a carpet cleaner who uses moisture (any method) to clean the carpet.

This guy might also be surprised that Rotary Extraction (not just crb) works pretty well also.

Jim Martin wrote:
I agree with him to a point....but..I pre vac every job....and weather I fill my vacuum half way or all the way...it is still less crap that I have to deal with clogging up a filter and causing me to lose some vacuum........


I think a lot of guys prevacuum as a marketing tool more than anything. After all, some cleaners don't have much else to hang their hat on.

I agree with Jim Martin's point, if I understand it correctly. If a pair of pants with two pockets has 2 pounds of dirt carried in the pockets, does it matter if the pair of pants has one pound of dirt in each of the two pockets, or if one pocket carries 2 pounds of dirt and the other pocket carries none?

Yes, there are times prevacuuming is prudent. But my money for the best clean is on the guy spending 3 hours Rotovacing over the guy that spends 1 hour vacuuming along with 1 or 2 hours cleaning.

Ultimately the customer will decide. So pay more attention to your clients and making your business profitable than to common industry chatter, i.e. "makes mud so doesn't clean as well".

The truth is all cleaning methods make mud by adding moisture to soils in the carpet in order to remove them.

Just another point of view. Am I right or am I wrong?

 

[royalkid]

if you don't pre-vac, your a fookin' hack!! I can't imagine a single customer saying, "wait a minute, are you seriously going to pre-vac, why the hell would you do that"?....never gonna happen, but I'VE heard lots of customers say, "wow, this is the first time a cleaner has pre-vac'd my carpet, thank you so much". On average, it shouldn't take more than 15 minutes...you WILL remove dirt and clean better. Stop looking for reasons to be lazy hacks! Or don't...and the "real" cleaners will come in and steal your custy's :mrgreen:

 

[Loren Egland]

I had a customer this week who was prevacuuming the carpet. She spend a LONG time, many times 15 minutes for three rooms, hall and stairs. She explain that she felt she would do a better job than letting the cleaner vacuum. She was right, eh?

 

[Brian R]

the customer IS right...like it or not. Maybe not right to us...but right to them or we're not working for them.

Royalkid is wrong.

 

[royalkid]

Well, think about that.....why does she feel/think she'll do a better job than you?? I'll make sure my custy's know that i will do a quality job and not to worry, my actions will speak loud-n-clear. Just take your time, be thorough, CARE, and whamm0...custy/cheerleader for life. If you splash-n-dash and don't do the "extra's" then you're nothing special to them...set yourself apart and show em' you care.

 

[royalkid]

corky, i disagree with you. If you have custy's that believe they can get more dirt out of their carpet than you...you have a problem. Educate your customer, explain WHY/HOW your system/process works and that's what YOU'RE there for, remember, to CLEAN their carpet.

BTW, how's your VLM cleaning division working out....? Leave the "quality" cleaning advice to the real cleaners corkster :roll:

 

[joey895]

Well, think about that.....why does she feel/think she'll do a better job than you?? .

Ummm, because you just said you wouldn't take more than 15 minutes "on average" to vacuum their entire home.

 

[royalkid]

Well, think about that.....why does she feel/think she'll do a better job than you?? .

Ummm, because you just said you wouldn't take more than 15 minutes "on average" to vacuum their entire home.

Joey, where did i say "entire home"? I said on average...do you clean 8 areas in every job?? Probably not, some 2 rooms, 3 rooms, 5 rooms etc. Some jobs might take 1 hour to pre-vac (but not many), the next job (2 rooms) might only take 5 minutes. I said "On average"...just for you, let's say 15-20 minutes on average...is that better? And I never said I "wouldn't" spend more than 15 minutes. Try reading a little better next time. Let me guess Joey, you don't pre-vac?

 

[Zee]

Brian you are wrong in this case!

Many many times the following happens to me: I show up and custy informs me that she just vacuumed or just putting away the vac cleaner as I walk in.

They tell me they vacuum very well all the time. I excuse myself. Saying let me test it for myself to make sure its up to my standards.

They always say they don't want to pay more because I vacuum. I tell them its already included in the price.

When they look at me weird why I think I need to vacuum again I just smile at them nice and let them watch and watch and watch in disbelief how my vac cleaner is filling up with THEIR dirt from THEIR carpet THEY had just vacuumed 10 minutes prior.

Trust me its worth making them understand (in a subtle way) that I know more about cleaning carpets and that I care- in a long run those are the custys that keep coming back and bring their referrals too!

 

[Brian R]

corky, i disagree with you. If you have custy's that believe they can get more dirt out of their carpet than you...you have a problem. Educate your customer, explain WHY/HOW your system/process works and that's what YOU'RE there for, remember, to CLEAN their carpet.

BTW, how's your VLM cleaning division working out....? Leave the "quality" cleaning advice to the real cleaners corkster :roll:

All customers are/have problems and we are problems solvers.

The arguement is whether or not you have to prevac...not whether or not a customer can vac better.

What's the point of having the big TM if you have to utilize a little vacuum.

Now with my system, I vacuum before and after because I don't use extraction wet cleaning. Whatever I turn to mud, I pad clean. Then any mud left behind...if any...turns back into a vacuumable substance.

It's working just fine...how are the TM payments?

 

[Brian R]

the "I vacuum better than my customer" Sounds like Arrogance to me.

 

[royalkid]

"whatever i turn to mud, i pad clean"

didn't i tell you to leave this to the "real" cleaners :!:

BTW, no TM payments here. I own my vans/TM and all equipment. shiteatinggrin

Cork, Not sure how long you've actually cleaned carpet, but you really come across as a true hack. :shock:

 

[Zee]

the "I vacuum better than my customer" Sounds like Arrogance to me.

Yeah...arrogance. :roll: It's not arrogance- it is a fact- I vacuum better than 99% of my customers> This is what I do. I'm supposed to be better- I am the professional. And they believe it too- that's why they called us!

What do you tell your customer that has wicking issues? Do you tell them- Mrs. Piff I cleaned the carpet but you vacuumed and because you didn't vacuum right now we/you have dirt wicking back up, so it's your fault Mrs.Piff!!!

Customer isn't always right.

 

[joey895]

Well, think about that.....why does she feel/think she'll do a better job than you?? .

Ummm, because you just said you wouldn't take more than 15 minutes "on average" to vacuum their entire home.

Joey, where did i say "entire home"? I said on average...do you clean 8 areas in every job?? Probably not, some 2 rooms, 3 rooms, 5 rooms etc. Some jobs might take 1 hour to pre-vac (but not many), the next job (2 rooms) might only take 5 minutes. I said "On average"...just for you, let's say 15-20 minutes on average...is that better? And I never said I "wouldn't" spend more than 15 minutes. Try reading a little better next time. Let me guess Joey, you don't pre-vac?

Yes, I pre-vac. Although not EVERY job I would say I vac 80-90 percent of them. I skip it on most commercial and most rentals that are getting my bare minimum pricing unless it's obvious that they would benefit from it.

Maybe I just don't do as many small jobs as you. I would say my MINIMUM time would be 15 minute range, maximum up to an hour, average probably 30-45 minutes. You really should go have a beer and chill out, it's just vacuuming for crying out loud and I was simply pointing out why the home owner would think she does a better job of vacuuming, I think most cleaners who pre-vac go too fast for it to be really effective, the same way most extract way to fast for it to be effective.

 

[royalkid]

ah, joey joey, never said i do a lot of "small" jobs, guess you're having a hard time wrappin' your mind around this whole "average" thing :?: BTW, i am currenty enjoying a cold beer !gotcha! I'm actually very chilled out, but when people mis-quote me, i have to set them straight. :mrgreen:

 

[Ryan]

Have the custy prevac, it also results in them picking up all the little crap you usually have to throw on beds.

 

[steve g]

I could not disagree with this guy more. Yeah the CRB picks up the bigger debris like hair etc. but what about all the fine silty soil that the vac pulls out?? also I don't think a wand does all that great of job picking up the big stuff that the CRB has pulled to the surface. I also feel that in most case the CRB only really works on frieze type carpets, and less so on saxony cut piles.

the reality is I feel most jobs don't need a prevac, I would say only about 10% do. what I do is check the carpets if the customers vac has been not working good or if they haven't been using it its easy to see an abnormal amount of hair and debris during preinspection just sitting on the carpets. if this is the case I pull out the vac.

here is an example to prove my point. several years ago the carpet in my own home kept getting dirty really fast, I normally cleaned them every 6 mos, but dark spots seemed to be cropping up everywhere after 3 mos. this went on for nearly a year. my wife always did her normal vac routine so I didn't think anything about it. Well it turns out that the belt was off the vac and I never checked to see if it was on or not, because the vac would still pick up larger debris inspite of not having the brush turning so we thought it was working. I finally started noticing debris on the carpets which prompted me to check out the vac. The fact is vacuuming will extend by I say at least double the length of time the carpets stay clean.

 

[dealtimeman]

I have had jobs where the customer is a little annoyed or offended, initially, that I vacuum after they have already vacuumed. Until I ask for a bag so that I can empty the canister full of crap.

 

[RIP IT]

the "I vacuum better than my customer" Sounds like Arrogance to me.

not if their vacuum cleaner is a pos


I've lost count of the number of times I've heard "but we just vacuumed before you got here".

lots of my customers have gone out and bought Dysons after seeing the difference.

 

[Zee]

I have had jobs where the customer is a little annoyed or offended, initially, that I vacuum after they have already vacuumed. Until I ask for a bag so that I can empty the canister full of crap.

eee......xactly!! my point!

 

[Mikey P]

Mikey's Board is Out of Ideas - Pirates them from ICS
Posted By d-day on 12/17/2010 at 6:33 PM

Mikey's Board is hard-up for interesting discussion topics, so Mikey pirates my pre-vac post from here, copies it and pastes it to his own bulletin board, sets up a poll concerning this post, and then removes my permission to respond via posting to his forum. I presume if I pay up and become a "supporting" member that I'd be allowed to post and respond to those who are responding to my ICS post but on Mikey's board.

I wouldn't pay to participate in any internet forum regardless, but I would certainly not pay for a board that needs to pilfer discussion threads from ICS rather than being able to generate interesting threads on its own.

At any rate, it is rather poor form to cut and paste another person's post from one forum to another and then not allow that individual to post to that discussion.

Also, I'd think that ICS would hold the copyright to any posts voluntarily posted here, and that others would should ask ICS for permission to re-print elsewhere. But, then again, I'm just a carpet cleaner wondering out loud, and not a copyright attorney.

Sue me Dday.


sour grapes his thread on ICS never went anywhere.