Dual wanding.

[Becker]

Dual wanded today, 6 jobs. I feel my machine is borderline capable. Every job today was 100' per.

The more often a dual wand the more I love the idea of wanting to make it standard operation.

Clients love the speed of being in and out.

Besides and aerotech, what other machines do you feel are suitable for daily dual wanding?

The guy who wands with me has it down and we work well together.

Besides the cleaning speed, I like being able to wrap up with the client while the other finished packing up the van.

Anyone have or know someone who runs 2 med level slide ins out of a single box truck?

 

[Larry Cobb]

Becker;

I think a #56 blower is the minimum for a strong dual wand TM.

Engine needs to be 38-40 HP for top HX heat (230F).

View attachment 4017

Larry

 

[AshleyMckendree]

A 56 Is O.K with both wands always on the floor, and short hose runs. I assume thats what you have now?

While its no longer made, My Nissan Genesis 59 Dual wands great with the Mods I made (Removed the tiny 2" long blower filters, Changed inlets to full smooth 2.5)

It doesn't quite have that "OOMPH" my Vortex with the same 59 blower did (before I tore it all apart) I think its because there is allot of turbulence in the square tank vs the round V tank.

I would have to guess an Everest 650 or SS 870 would be your best bet.

 

[mwall2230]

We've been dual wanding with our 870 ss quite a bit lately. Can't really tell a difference in vac or heat. I single wand on medium and dual wand on high.

 

[hogjowl]

Every time Larry posts that chart, I think about the mixing instructions on Power Max.

I blink and move on.

 

[Johnny]

Becker;

I think a #56 blower is the minimum for a strong dual wand TM.

Engine needs to be 38-40 HP for top HX heat (230F).

View attachment 4017

Larry

Does a 45 really outperform a 47? Did I waste my hard-earned $ on a 47 when I shudda got a 45?

 

[Larry Cobb]

Does a 45 really outperform a 47? Did I waste my hard-earned $ on a 47 when I shudda got a 45?

Johnny;

A #45 blower can ALWAYS operate @ 2" more vacuum than a #47 blower.

That is why the #45 is best with the single 14" wand we tested with.

It delivered more LIFT.

Performance was measured @ the wand while extracting.

Larry

P.S. Marty - you never go by directions, anyway.

 

[Lee Stockwell]

Yes, according to Larry.

 

[Johnny]

Johnny;

A #45 blower can ALWAYS operate @ 2" more vacuum than a #47 blower.

That is why the #45 is best with the single 14" wand we tested with.

It delivered more LIFT.

Performance was measured @ the wand while extracting.

Larry

P.S. Marty - you never go by directions, anyway.

Seems counter-intuitive because a 47 is moving more air than a 45. Like saying a 350 develops more torque than a 396. Does a 56 blower develop more lift than a 59? The old adage, "there is no replacement for displacement" doesn't apply to blowers?

 

[Bob Savage]

Seems counter-intuitive because a 47 is moving more air than a 45. Like saying a 350 develops more torque than a 396. Does a 56 blower develop more lift than a 59? The old adage, "there is no replacement for displacement" doesn't apply to blowers?

The 47 does move more air, but the 45 has greater lift, according to Larry.

 

[dgardner]

With a fixed orifice at one end (wand on carpet), and a fixed vacuum level at the other end (inside the waste tank), you can only move so much air. It's true that a 47 can move more air under open flow conditions, but with the wand on carpet, having already reached the flow limit of the wand/hose/carpet, just bypasses more air through the relief. The only way to get more flow is to increase the vacuum level. The 45 can pull 2" more vacuum, so that's how it achieves more flow than the 47 under these specific conditions - single wand on the carpet.

 

[hogjowl]

I've never seen any credible source offering any information related to exactly how much "only so much air" actually is, so I'm not certain that you know how much that magic number really is. Until that number is actually determined, again by a credible source, what you are saying is just noise.

 

[dgardner]

Sorry to be so noisy....

 

[juniorc82]

Every time Larry posts that chart, I think about the mixing instructions on Power Max.

I blink and move on.

holy shyt litteraly just spit my oj out laughing lol

 

[juniorc82]

something just doesn't seem right about larry's chart. I notice a pretty un deniale difference between my 47 and a 45 machine. Ialso feel like you an get a little better distance on a 47. I don't notice a drop in vacuum till around a 200 ft run wih the 47 where as after 150 feet with 45 youcan begin to feel drop in suction

 

[tmdry]

Anyone have or know someone who runs 2 med level slide ins out of a single box truck?

Harper

 

[Larry Cobb]

something just doesn't seem right about larry's chart. I notice a pretty undeniable difference between my 47 and a 45 machine. I also feel like you an get a little better distance on a 47. I don't notice a drop in vacuum till around a 200 ft run wih the 47 where as after 150 feet with 45 youcan begin to feel drop in suction

Jon;

Every 50 ft. of vac hose loses some of the lift the TM generates.

Since the #45 is capable of 2" more lift . . .

it will have more lift at the carpet @ 200 ft. with a single 14" wand

(assuming both relief valves are set correctly)

Dan is correct in his explanation that more lift is required to increase airflow.

Larry

 

[Ron Werner]

a 45 working better than a 47 is presuming the 45 is actually operating at 2" more than the 47.
Given the same lift, which performs better? If a 45 and 47 are both operating at 15" of lift, which then gives the better performance , assuming 200ft of 2"hose with a 2" wand

 

[Able 1]

I notice pretty good amount of difference between my Peak(45) and Apex (47?). My Apex has way more lift.

On topic though, I think you are better off running two vans on bigger jobs then splitting off for the smaller ones..

 

[Larry Cobb]

a 45 working better than a 47 is presuming the 45 is actually operating at 2" more than the 47.
Given the same lift, which performs better? If a 45 and 47 are both operating at 15" of lift, which then gives the better performance , assuming 200ft of 2"hose with a 2" wand

Performance would be exactly the same . . .

but the #45 is capable of 2" more LIFT . . .

so set the relief valves to take advantage of that.

Larry

 

[rwcarpet]

A 56 Is O.K with both wands always on the floor, and short hose runs. I assume thats what you have now?

While its no longer made, My Nissan Genesis 59 Dual wands great with the Mods I made (Removed the tiny 2" long blower filters, Changed inlets to full smooth 2.5)

It doesn't quite have that "OOMPH" my Vortex with the same 59 blower did (before I tore it all apart) I think its because there is allot of turbulence in the square tank vs the round V tank.

I would have to guess an Everest 650 or SS 870 would be your best bet.

I'm with Ashley here.....my Genesis 59 (2003 Model)is still performing dual wand with great results. I too have the smooth bore 2.5 inlets and 12" long blower filters. I think the square tank does inhibit more performance. If you could find a low hour Genesis and are able to do your own wrenching, it would fit the bill. Other than that, I'd go with an AT, if you're going to dual wand most of the time.

 

[NobleCarpetCleaners]

Long time ago I ditched the filter box that came with my WhiteMagicHO(47 blower). I pre-vac and use a pantyhose on the blower filter(change that once a week). Occasionally (for the first year) I placed the box back in the van and plumb it in. I even built a free flowing metal mesh (3/32" openings) basket in place of the fine mesh pool filter bag to see a difference. The difference between the clean pre filter basket and no basked was startling at 150 feet. The progressive decline as the basket filled was depressing.

I've monitored the subject of lint/debris filtering on message boards for a long time. It boggles my mind. For years I've been letting the extremely well engineered sanitary sewer processing folks take care of my lint and debris. I've asked them and they have never complained about my debris (they even laughed), and I've benefitted from screaming air flow ever since.

Tell you what, I will try dual wanding with 2 legs of 150 feet each, 1 1/2" wands and report back (even a 14"X2" and a 12"X1.5"). It's not going to be with my old filter box though. It will be the stock 3" line coming off the tank and split to 2" legs coming out the van. I've always wondered what 2 wand interfaces would feel like with that run.

 

[Larry Cobb]

I even built a free flowing metal mesh (3/32" openings) basket in place of the fine mesh pool filter bag to see a difference. The difference between the clean pre filter basket and no basked was startling at 150 feet. The progressive decline as the basket filled was depressing.

I've monitored the subject of lint/debris filtering on message boards for a long time. It boggles my mind. For years I've been letting the extremely well engineered sanitary sewer processing folks take care of my lint and debris. I've asked them and they have never complained about my debris (they even laughed), and I've benefited from screaming air flow ever since.

Tell you what, I will try dual wanding with 2 legs of 150 feet each, 1 1/2" wands and report back (even a 14"X2" and a 12"X1.5"). It's not going to be with my old filter box though. It will be the stock 3" line coming off the tank and split to 2" legs coming out the van. I've always wondered what 2 wand interfaces would feel like with that run.

Good Post . . .

As you have discovered . . .

Every item in the vac airpath . . .

From the wand to the blower silencer . . .

has an effect on the total restriction of AIRFLOW .

Let us know your results.

Larry

P. S. We went to larger mesh openings in our blower filters a few years ago.
It also makes them stronger, due to the larger mesh wire used.

http://www.cobbcarpet.com/zen/index...arch_in_description=1&keyword=vac+filter+mesh

 

[Ron Werner]

Performance would be exactly the same . . .

but the #45 is capable of 2" more LIFT . . .

so set the relief valves to take advantage of that.

Larry

Looking at the Vac performance charts, I'd have to run the 45 at 500 more RPM to achieve the same CFM at 15"
ie the 47 produced 350CFM at 3000RPM
the 45 would have to spin at over 3500RPM

 

[Lee Stockwell]

The 47 is CAPABLE of the same lift a 45 is.

 

[Larry Cobb]

Lee;

They #45 & #47 use the same 4" diameter gears with identical power ratings.

The 7" rotor of the #47 is 40% longer than the 5" rotor of the #45.

That is 40% more CFM . . . and you still think they can operate at the SAME LIFT LEVELS.

Your college profs would laughing at that type of "critical thinking"

Larry

 

[Lee Stockwell]

I actually clean carpets.

 

[Lee Stockwell]

Less "critical thinking" and a lot more real world experience. There's a good reason the best companies in our industry offer bigger than 45 blowers.

 

[Larry Cobb]

Less "critical thinking" and a lot more real world experience. There's a good reason the best companies in our industry offer bigger than 45 blowers.

We are building some #5MR (old #56) blower machines right now. Don't confuse a #47 with a #5MR.

Even have a #59 TM with a Nissan 4-cyl. engine.

They are good for a company that does dual wanding a significant % of the time.

Larry

 

[Lee Stockwell]

56 is Roots designation. 5M is Sutorbilt.