ever get jobs like these???

[steve g]

that dehu looks like crap I should have cleaned it, although on a job like this it doesn't matter, oh well when I break out the 1200's it means all the other phoenix LGR's are out so these are kinda the bottom of the barrel for dehus, also keep in mind this job was "AFTER" they moved their stuff so i could work in the room

 

[Craig Lindquist]

A few issues.
First, you still should have cleaned the dehu...when it arrived back at the shop after the last job. It always matters, the pride someone takes in their job is 100% reflected by the pride they take in their appearance and the appearance of their equipment. I'm sure when an adjster comes by he will be WOWED by it. This is not to mention what kind of stuff is being blowed around the house or even percieved to be by that.

Second,
As the mitigtion company, manipulating the contents is your responsibility. Those contents are sure to be holding some moisture which needs to be dealt with. Also, they are hindering access and airflow to affected surfaces.

Third,
A 1200 is an inadequate unit for any water work, and I hope you are intending to switch it out as soon as an LGR is available.

I'm not trying to berate ya Steve, just some constructive criticism.

 

[LeeCory]

I am sure that the dehu was only put into the picture as a joke, and the room was emptied of the contents prior to the beginning of work.

 

[Desk Jockey]

Didn't Craig post a picture like that last winter?

Craig clean up a little before you take shots of your home.

Steve I've seen it piled to the ceiling with only a path to walk in. We beneath and she didn't want a thing moved or thrown away. We Extracted, setup drying and called the adjuster.

He had never seen anything like it as was as puzzled as we were as what to do. She had us dry the open areas had her sign a refusal of recommendations and that was the last we saw of her.

Unfortunately we still stumble across one every now and then. We had one that the main floor was immaculate, but the basement looked like she never threw anything away. To the ceiling as usual and again didn't want anything thrown away.

These people have a problem!

 

[steve g]

I am sure that the dehu was only put into the picture as a joke, and the room was emptied of the contents prior to the beginning of work.

no actually the room is only wet about 4 feet on one side of the room, an adjoining room only a corner wet, so we are talking prolly 80 sq ft of wet carpeted area with a couple wet walls a foot up. pad was pulled as its cat 2 water, most would agree a large LGR would prolly be over kill, a little 1200 will get the job done just fine. contents where moved away from areas that where wet, I am not gonna empty the rooms, as you can imagine the rest of the house is like this, it would require a packout and a moving truck if emptied the rooms. as for the dehu give me a break, these sit in the back of the storage room and only get used when every thing is out already. yeah the contents are my job, however I don't wanna move, clothes, underwear, socks etc, the customer should move these.

 

[Craig Lindquist]

One thing I am animate about and I will use this as yet another oppurtunity to mention...

A 1200 or any other non-LGR dehumidifier is not suited for restorative drying applications. Even Dri-Eaz personelle have said this to me many times. Study psychrometry and physics in regards to vapor pressures and you'll see that is is impossible to polish a drying job off with a 1200.

Distributors who sell them to carpet cleaners to use for WDR should be ashamed of themselves for what they are doing.

People who use them either don't know any better or are hacks.

 

[steve g]

for 80 sq feet of effected area and 2 wet walls, I can say that by monday the whole joint will be dry, how is that inadequate for the situation, what should I do set up a TES machine and rip the insurance of for thousands of $$$$$

 

[Craig Lindquist]

Please post your pyschometric and moisture readings.

Please include temp and rh for outside, inside (unaffected area and affected area), dehu in and dehu out.

You should have them immediatley available.

I'll show you, using Dri Eaz's own information that you are either getting no dehumidification accomplised or very minimal.

I'll also show you the rate of evaporation you are getting, and why you can not accomplish a drying job with a 1200.

And don't fabricate your readings, because I'll be able to tell.

 

[Jay D]

OK, I'll ask cause I don't know any better. Why were refrigerants used for like 20 or so years to dry all structure? I have a 1200 and a 110 sitting in the shop(with 10 snout fans) and yet were'nt they a mainstay of most drying companys until about 5 or 6 years ago. I am ignorant and am going to take a Barry Costa class to know better, but why did most companys use these? I am trying to learn before I start offering it so forgive my newbe Questions. :roll:

 

[Craig Lindquist]

Thats a great question, here is a clue....

dewpoint.

 

[Craig Lindquist]

Hey Steve G...

I'm still waiting for the readings. My bet is that you havent been taking them.

If you are going to debate me bring facts because I deal with absolutes and black and whites.

 

[steve g]

Hey Steve G...

I'm still waiting for the readings. My bet is that you havent been taking them.

If you are going to debate me bring facts because I deal with absolutes and black and whites.

as for the readings, I just started the job today, the only readings I would have would be outside numbers, do they really mean anything at this point, I am not going to get complicated on a 1/4 room job that has less than 80 sq feet of damaged area, I will just show back up on monday and it will be dry, not rocket science here or anything. of course readings will be taken again

craig you know you really come off as kinda arrogant around here, you might try offering suggestions on how to do things better rather than putting people down for the things they do, its rather irritating, read the posts that guys like chavez writes, he doesn't tell people how they are wrong normally, people will listen to what you are saying alot more

 

[Craig Lindquist]

I am sure I do come off as arrogant, especially when it comes to defending the reputation of the industry.

Now earliler you said ;

"how ethical is it to charge 2-3 times or more in equipment rental than just replacing the damaged item?? "

Well, where you are right now the dewpoint is 38 degrees, of course you know that, because you only have the outside reading. Since you know that, and you read the owners manual on your 1200, and you paid attention at class, you know that your 1200 only removes a signifigant amount of moisture down to a dewpoint of 52 degrees because the coils run at 20 degrees below the ambient dew point. So at a dew point of 38 degrees, moisture is freezing on the coils and minimal condensation is occuring.

But, since the dew point outside is 38 degrees, the outside GPP is 35. That means that the outside air is 25 GPP drier than what that 1200 can (as per Dri-Eaz) possibly do. So why are you taking their money when you could be burping the building and having better results.

Also, maybe you should teach your drying method because you state that your dry times are better than any ASD schools.

BTW, how can you possibly know when that job will be dry without knowing the inside conditions?

 

[Desk Jockey]

I think Craig's point is there is better technology available today.

Back when the Drizair 110 was popular we had over 80-of the in our drying inventory. I liked them, they we built tough, not much could go wrong with them. I'll bet 90% of them are still being used by someone today.

We use to have a couple of dozen 1200's too (sorry Craig!), but sold them off and replaced them with Evolutions for small areas.

We dried a lot of carpet & pad with the old refrigerants, and if I still owned them today and all my other equipment were out would I still send them out? Hell yes and charge full rate and not feel bad either.

Can they do what the new tech machines can, no they just are not capable. But in most cases they will do enough to get you by until you buy LGR's.

 

[steve g]

craig that is your problem you try to automatically pick holes in everything people do, the 1200's are my bottom of the barrel last resort dehu, as for your dewpoint arguments of course they are valid, however you are missing one crucial aspect, and that is security!!! especially with this home its located in a higher crime area, I don't think the people would feel good about just leaving the windows open, what if they wanted to leave, also what about the security of my equipment, another factor is if I open a window downstairs all the humid air from their swamp cooler will wanna go down there and f up what I am trying to accomplish. see craig there is always other factors you are forgetting. also something else the 1200 still puts out about 110 degree air depending on conditions, this gives the added benefit of some heat in the basement, without it I would be at 70 degrees or less down there not very conducive to drying

 

[Craig Lindquist]

Then you have other problems...That dehu only works up to 90 degrees.

My point is that a 1200 can not create vapor pressures low enough to facilitate drying at the end of a project based on what we know today.

Five years ago the industry did not know any better.

In 1989 we were drying buildings with indirect fired heaters and heat lamps in Guam when I was in the Navy Civil Engineer Corps after typhoons.

In 1969 they were using heat to dry Naval facilities in Gulfport after Camille.

That is why as soon as I saw a TES I bought it, #4 in the country to own one.

Carpet Cleaners began using dehus, finally someone did the math and created LGR's. Then, finally realized, the power of drying lies at the molecular level.

 

[Jack May]

Craig, in an ideal world, what you mentioned is THE BEST option.

Unfortunately, most of us don't have that liberty.

Try $3285 +TAX for a 1200 :roll:

Or high $4000 for an Evo.

Over over $5k for a LGR2000.

Add in the fact that Phoenix don't want to sell into our country.

Multiple the fact that the bare basic min TES unit is around $45k and then you'll spend another 15k mounting it on a trailer and buying accessories to get it to work.

Unfortunately, we don't all get to work in the ideal environment.

I'm not wingeing (alright maybe just a little) nor am I offering excuses for having 1200's, but seriously, when equipment cost that much, and recoup is at least 40 days hirage, and the rest of the country are using what I call 'warehouse dehus' or small resi style machines, ANYTHING I bring into the home marked Drieaz is a MAJOR improvement.

I have mostly 1200's and 1 (one) LGR2000. If I came across any second hand 1200's or 2000's, I'd snap them up very quickly.

I'm not 100% sure of the numbers, but I think you'll find that there are only a handfull of companies in NZ that actually have a 2000. There's a few companies with the old Ph 200's but they are a couple of decades old so you can imagine that my 1200's are getting close to their performance.

Kind regards, John

 

[Curtis Pennington]

We still use 1200 on smaller jobs 3-6 fans and have dried out many walls, cabinets, and carpets. They will work but the LGR are the king without a doubt...........



Some people cant afford to have or purchase LGR's, I think we need to be less critical on equipment and more helpful on what situation/equipment they have!!!

 

[Jay D]

I personally Don't have delusions of grandeur about what equipment I have. I know its limitations and would not put myself or my client into a questionable situations. If Its beyond what I can do I call a water restoration guy I know and turn it over to him. I will get a LGR as soon as I can, but for now small water damages I can take, Big ones go to my friend. :wink:

 

[steve g]

Then you have other problems...That dehu only works up to 90 degrees.

My point is that a 1200 can not create vapor pressures low enough to facilitate drying at the end of a project based on what we know today.

dude you really need some kind of anger management or maybe some prosac or something, my little 1200 is not gonna heat that basement by itself to over 90 degrees or even close to it. so I guess the thousands of jobs that have been dryed with conventional equipment never happened because they didn't have the technology to dry the jobs, according to you I can't get this job dry with a 1200, give me a damn break man, you are loosing credibility, so you complain and say the 1200 does not dry enough down to a level, and then you preach how great your tes machine works while not even using dehus, in fact they are not recommended to be used with the tes, so which is it. telling me I can't dry 80 sq ft of carpet with no pad and 2 wet walls with a 1200, is I dunno made you loose all of the credibility you had left.

 

[Craig Lindquist]

I'm quoting Dri-Eaz on the performance capabilities of the 1200 for starters.

#2, for every job we dry with TES we dry 2 with conventional equipment. We have enough conventional equipment to run a dozen jobs at any one time.

#3, In some situations it is recommended to use a HT dehu with TES.

#4, You started this by making not only false, but absurd statements about the limitations of the TES system. I am wondering if you have ever dried a structure with TES, and if so, how many? Also, have you been to a heat drying shool? You have never backed up any statement that you have made on any drying scenario with factual statements. So far everything you have said has been speculative and easily disproven.

#5, I don't need to have credibility with you nor do I want it. Apparently, credibility is imprtant to you, so if you need that security blanket I would suggest providing scientific data to support you claims. I refrained from attacking you personally because it has been up to now your apparrent lack of knowledge and profesionalism that I dissagreed with, not the quality of person you are. Your close minded approach to drying methods and science is obvious. Now unfortunatley your ignorance of drying has pushed your frustration to the point where you can no longer make a stand base on the science of drying, therefore you have began personal attacks.

#6, You obviously have not paid that much attention to all of my posts because I speak highly and often about conventional drying methods.



So, Let me apologize and start on a clean slate and give some genuine advice about your current drying job.

I would advise on your next visit to:
1) Bag the clothes and take to cleaners, or box and move to another area depending on condition and moisture content. The insurance will most probably pay for the cleaning.

2) Take some windex and some towells and clean up your dehu so it looks better. (just because your customers are slobs, you don't have to be)

3)Take complete readings of the job and map the moisture. Make sure to take deep readings, many times the drywall wil be dry but there will be moisture condensed under the sole plates.

4) Take all of your temp and humidity readings and determine your vapor presures, this will verify your evaporation rates incase you need it down the road for payment or litigation.

5) Burp the building, your air is dry there. If possible leave the windows open today if someone will be home or security can be arranged.

6) Replace the 1200 with a LGR for the last day or 2 of drying A 1200 can only go down to appx 55 GPP and an LGR can go down to 32 GPP. That is a signifigant differance in vapor pressure and that is what is needed to remove the deep down moisture.

 

[steve g]

craig, that was nice, the last part of your post was very constructive in all seriousness, I don't mind advice or new ideas. anyways while we are at it, could you explain your company's procedure for mapping out moisture and what documentation you use?? mapping out the moisture readings with a hygrometer is easy, its the readings using penetrating and non penetrating I think I need a better system of documentation on

 

[Craig Lindquist]

I provide 3 levels of moisture documentatin and 2 levels of humidity documentation.

For moisture we provide thermal images, graphs from our Delmhorst meter, and a 3 dimensional sketch graph showing mositure depths as readings were taken from different length probes.

My experience had been that simple pin meters and non-pemetrating meters are not sufficient. On a majority of jobs we have found deep bound moisture that the non-penetrating and pin meter did not find.
Our 3-dimensional skecth showing our deep probing really illustrates that and sets us apart.

 

[Scott]

I provide 3 levels of moisture documentatin and 2 levels of humidity documentation.

For moisture we provide thermal images, graphs from our Delmhorst meter, and a 3 dimensional sketch graph showing mositure depths as readings were taken from different length probes.

My experience had been that simple pin meters and non-pemetrating meters are not sufficient. On a majority of jobs we have found deep bound moisture that the non-penetrating and pin meter did not find.
Our 3-dimensional skecth showing our deep probing really illustrates that and sets us apart.

Very cool, Craig. Have you been to a metering-only course?

Scott

 

[steve g]

I provide 3 levels of moisture documentatin and 2 levels of humidity documentation.

For moisture we provide thermal images, graphs from our Delmhorst meter, and a 3 dimensional sketch graph showing mositure depths as readings were taken from different length probes.

My experience had been that simple pin meters and non-pemetrating meters are not sufficient. On a majority of jobs we have found deep bound moisture that the non-penetrating and pin meter did not find.
Our 3-dimensional skecth showing our deep probing really illustrates that and sets us apart.

could you post any of the forms you use for this?? lets take a hypothetical bedroom 12x12 basement bedroom with a closet on one side, 2 walls are insulated exterior walls, how often would you do the deep probing to each wall, and are you rechecking in the exact places each time??

 

[Desk Jockey]

I would agree about the pin meters, probes are what we use too.
The pins will only tell you that the drywall is dry, not the insulation.

You could get carried away with it and make swiss cheese of the walls, but if we have scanned it with the thermal and it shows no temperature differential, then we assume it's dry.

But for safety's sake we will probe it in a couple of spots in the area we are drying.

We will make note of it on the paper work and take an after thermal for the file.

The sketch is a great idea, especially for years down the line if there are questions

 

[steve g]

so if you are drying say an exterior insulated basement wall, the drywall has dryed however the insulation is still damp, will this show most of the time on a thermal image??

 

[Desk Jockey]

No not normally, and that's the risk of relying on the Camera or meter too much. You have to use what makes most sense for the situation, and in cases where we know the cavity had some moisture we have to be more intrusive.

Here is a simple wall layout, we use one for each affected room.

 

[steve g]

richard, would you mind posting one of those diagrams above for a typical room on a job you guys completed

 

[Desk Jockey]

Yea, I'll pull one and put it up, it's not impressive.

Make a guy work will you! :x