Follow-up encapsulation Question Nov 2nd, Jim P

[Fred G]

Follow-up Encapsulation Questions


Jim Pemberton I read your post and the replies on the Clean-fax article

“Does it come out” and was amazed at all the informed responses and interest

other cleaners have with answering that question.


Certainly, my article was not an end all on the subject in fact not even close. So please Jim take a

stab at answering that question. I look forward to your keen industry insight and am sure the

question will be answered in greater depth, anything that I could share with you please let me

know.

 

[Desk Jockey]

Hey Fred good to see you posting here!

 

[Scott S.]

Follow-up Encapsulation Questions


Jim Pemberton I read your post and the replies on the Clean-fax article

“Does it come out” and was amazed at all the informed responses and interest

other cleaners have with answering that question.


Certainly, my article was not an end all on the subject in fact not even close. So please Jim take a

stab at answering that question. I look forward to your keen industry insight and am sure the

question will be answered in greater depth, anything that I could share with you please let me

know.

why didn't you test the products at their recommended dilutions? most manufacturers recommend a certain amount of encap juice to be used as they are at different dilutions. and who is going to use compressed air at a customers house to remove encap. why didn't you use some kind of beater bar agitator like we actually use in the industry? also fiber we clean on carpets is not wadded up in a ball, the fiber is actually in very close rows and is exposed to more agitation and flexing of the fiber than your slamming or air blowing test can show.

 

[Desk Jockey]

Fred was a huge Encap cleaner when he had a contract cleaning business operating in two states. He even manufactured his own products at the time. I believe he is now both a consultant and business broker.

Where did you go Fred?

 

[Fred G]

We still do commercial only from 2 states. Plus we have been fortunate to be in Real Estate as well.
Things are good. Take care and thanks for the welcome.

 

[Jim Pemberton]

Thank you for commenting here Fred.

Your two articles stimulated questions that I believe need to be asked about what is called "the encapsulation cleaning method".

First, let me make this clear to you, and everyone:

I am very happy that this method exists, and its obvious that it "works", in that we are seeing visible appearance improvement and less resoiling and wicking problems when the method appears to be used properly. There is no doubt that these are very important benefits.

But.....

In my search for answers regarding testing done on how the process, and the products used in the process, work, I was disappointed to find there has been little such testing done.

The reason I have such strong concerns about this cleaning method is this:

1. As a whole, too many cleaners using this method are inadequately performing the dry soil removal step before the application of their encapsulant product. In some cases, they are relying on in house maintenance staff or a janitorial contractor to perform this service. We only need to see how such people clean carpet when that responsibility is left to them to understand the potential problems involved with this practice.

2. There seems to be little truly understood about how the products that are used actually work. I listen to, or watch, debates between the use of "crystal formers" and "film formers", and while undiluted product tests seem to show important differences, many (not just me) are not convinced these tests reflect what is happening when these products are used in a ready to use form, agitated, then "extracted" from soiled carpet.

3. The "extraction step" troubles me. In this case, most cleaners are relying on a janitorial contractor, or worse yet, in house maintenance staff, to perform the extraction step by leaving them responsible for vacuuming the loosened soil and dried encapsulation product residues. At best, this important part of the process is out of the control of the cleaner. At worst, its being performed by individuals who may be poorly equipped, poorly trained, or poorly motivated to do the job right....or all three. There also are two types of extraction being discussed: One is the vacuuming of the soil and residues after drying, the other is using an absorbent pad to remove moisture, loosened soil, and residues. There is no testing of each type of extraction process that I'm aware of.

Fred, please do not think I am unduly criticising your efforts to find answers. I appreciate that you are willing to do so, and that you are doing so as an independent and respected expert in this field.

Your articles stimulated important questions, and I hope that because of the importance that this method has had for our industry that those answers can be found.

Any keen industry insight you have given me credit for does not mean I have those answers.

Only more questions.

 

[joel hoppe]

I agree that too many cleaners do nothing about dry soil removal before they spray a prespray solution on carpet and then spray some type of cleaning product before they use a vacuum system or micro fiber pads on carpet fiber to remove soil.



And I agree that testing on what is removed from fibers after cleaning would be great to see ..............

I have read that atp testing should not be used on carpet on hard surface so a better test needs to be developed........no one wants to waste their money so its not going to happen.

 

[joel hoppe]

But results on carpet is what makes the customer happy and pads give a great reason for mills to void warranties so nothing has changes for a long time

 

[FB19087]

But results on carpet is what makes the customer happy and pads give a great reason for mills to void warranties so nothing has changes for a long time

Are you just here to spam for John G.?

 

[joel hoppe]

I would like to see more testing done on encapsulation. I have talked directly to one mill for a job that I have and they said they will not do any testing.
So if the encap chem mfg and the equpiment mfg will not test their products then nothing will ever change and the argument continues as many more companies are starting to use encap on all types of carpet.

 

[Jimmy L]

Joel is well known for his shilling for John. And his abundance of misleading terms to describe the shampoo method.
And his lame ass videos of "testing" ENCapSulatioN scampoos on his garage floor!

Another dumb ass southerner .

 

[joel hoppe]

I understand the irritation that encap products claim they can be vacuumed off carpet and the super intellect of Jimmy L knows that is crap because of his observation ......

My question is if most encap products with polymer or plant based polymer are left on carpet and do not come off until water and a machine are used to remove them why is that a bad thing?
Carpet protectors are applied with a polymer and left on carpets do they ever come off carpet fiber? Can they even be removed with a product that is below 10 ph?
Carpets like smartstrand are made with polyester and a polymer from corn..........why is applying a polymer and leaving it on the carpet a problem.

I assume if these things have not been revealed or never will be because no one wants to hurt companys that make money on all of the encap products and carpet protectors used......... showing they dont work and are harmful to humans.
So only water should be used to clean carpets.....problem solved

 

[Mikey P]

Lots of concern over leaving polymer behind for kiddies and kitties to inhale and die of kancer..

What studies have been done with spray and go products like Procyon and Reita's Carbinated Solutions?

Do these products cause resoiling?

 

[NobleCarpetCleaners]

Studies?, hell there's no studies on our mainstream juices and powders for our own safety as techs. Probably never happen in our lifetimes.

I'll chime in on dry soil. Real effective dry soil removal "out there" on these commercial glued down carpets doesn't exist. The customers don't do it, janitorial doesn't do it. My opinion?, yes, but all I have is my observation in the field. It's an ongoing struggle to manage our job quotes $$ to include "enough" vacuuming to get a successful appearance cleaning. But that's the dirty little secrete of encap out in the field, how much top soil exists in those traffic lanes we'll have to combat so we don't get wicking. Hell, the same things exists in residential before we extract. I've encapped enough now to know dry soil is the most difficult aspect of the job, even before the coffee and the food spills. Underestimate dry soil and it will eat your lunch. Just my .18 cents.......per sq/ft

 

[Mikey P]

Maybe studies is the wrong term..

How about real world experience and time prooven watchful eyes from

Do these types of spray, scrub and split juices really NOT resoil..

 

[NobleCarpetCleaners]

well, I'll chime in again. I've kept a visual trend in my mind on 3 or more of my commercial accounts. Alternated extraction and encap not as an experiment just for good measure. Haven't noticed a tread of resoiling faster after encap vs extraction. I'm talking visual. They all get re-polluted, all get pounds of top soil tracked back in. I'd be interested in a quality "Studies have shown........." I'd also fork out for a wide area vacuum that got with the program. Is that out there hiding behind a lack of marketing?

 

[Mikey P]

Scott do you take notice of what type of vacuum the maintenance staff uses?

the popularity of back pack, brushroll-less vacuums being used now a days aint helping us scrub and runners..

Take your Encap/Shampoo cleaning up a notch and post pad (cotton OP pads) and do everybody a favor..

 

[Larry Cobb]

I would like to see more testing done on encapsulation. I have talked directly to one mill for a job that I have and they said they will not do any testing.
So if the encap chem mfg and the equpiment mfg will not test their products then nothing will ever change and the argument continues as many more companies are starting to use encap on all types of carpet.

Carpet manufacturers have tested "Encap" products . . .

but mainly only for cleaning effectiveness.

Resoiling claims remain to be seen.

 

[encapman]

Let's for a moment conclude that encap does nothing, it's a scam, nothing more than smoke and mirrors. Let's assume that the soil just loads up, and loads up, and loads up in the carpet - with each and every successive encap cleaning. Let's use our imaginations and believe that encap is ruining our customer's carpet, causing acid rain, increasing global terrorism, and causing the collapse of civilization. Let's just say that was all true. Well then some questions need to be asked...

Why don't we see widespread evidence of failure in the millions upon millions of sq ft of carpet that get maintained every single month of the year? Wouldn't it stand to reason that intelligent carpet cleaners would say, hey this stuff is crap, I don't want to use it anymore. After all, the success of their business is on the line. Why are we not hearing a loud rejection toward encapsulation from the cleaners using it every day in the field? Personally speaking, as the owner of Releasit I'm closely connected to this end of our industry and I would expect to be hearing at least some hint of failure if that was happening. Yet I don't hear even a whisper, instead what we hear is ultimately positive. So this begs the question, how in the world has the encap method become so successful during the past dozen years? Why has it become so popular? Why would mills like Shaw and others now recommend encapsulation for maintaining their carpet?

The truth is quite simple. The fact is that encapsulation has proven to be a very useful tool for maintaining commercial carpet. It's how millions upon millions of sq ft of carpet are being well maintained every month. It's why so many commercial carpet cleaners are using it on a regular basis. It's about the results! This is how the encap method become so successful. It's why it's become such a popular tool in our industry. This also explains why a number of mills recommend encapsulation for maintaining their carpet.

If what I just wrote in that last paragraph was not the case, then the encapsulation method never would have gained the traction that it has. The results speak for themselves. Commercial carpets are staying clean longer. Profitability for commercial carpet cleaners has increased tremendously. It's now possible to provide good commercial carpet care that can realistically fit within the budget of commercial clients. It's now possible to easily train technicians, send them out to work at night, and be able to hold them accountable to achieve consistent results. We're now able to clean without having to leave doors to commercial buildings propped open at night. The full list of benefits encapsulation has brought to our industry is simply hard to measure, in spite of what professor Ladwig might say. As they say, "the proof is in the pudding".

 

[NobleCarpetCleaners]

Good point about the bonnets Mike, I never leave home without my cotton!

On vacs I see in the field, lot's of Walmart specials and a fair about of old school Hoover type uprights. They all pretty much have clogged up foam filters and the Hoover Sanitairs I see have packed bags. I've seen about a dozen big wedge shaped wide area vacs and everyone of them had gotten retired to a big closet. They got misunderstood and zero maintenance.

 

[Jim Pemberton]

On vacs I see in the field, lot's of Walmart specials and a fair about of old school Hoover type uprights. They all pretty much have clogged up foam filters and the Hoover Sanitairs I see have packed bags. I've seen about a dozen big wedge shaped wide area vacs and everyone of them had gotten retired to a big closet. They got misunderstood and zero maintenance.

My point exactly.

Encapsulation cleaning has been a gift to both the cleaning industry and businesses and institutions that have carpet. While carpet continues to lose ground in sales, at least there is an affordable way to maintain carpet that allows cleaners who know what they're doing make money and still stay within budgets.

My concerns remain with cleaners who turn a blind eye and think that the "extraction step" is being adequately performed by improper vacuums and vacuuming.

Let's have the same kind of discussion truck mount cleaners have about the advantages of higher water flows and cfm to perform superior work. Why not look for the best means of extracting soil when "encapping" as well?

....or at least put together an educational and consultive approach to total carpet care with clients who have encapsulation done to see to it they are performing that step as best as can be done.