Free Flow or Free Love?

[Mikey P]

I have seen two EZs James.


While they both squirted and sucked, I really prefer my Truckmounts like I prefer my Men.

Straight but good looking.




But I can see where Nick, being from the land of Steers and Queers got sidetracked.



:shock:

 

[Mikey P]

and for the record, I use a stock spring relief on my V

 

[The Magician]

Very poorly built TM. Whats the hose acros the front of the motor. Lots of plastic ties used. I would like to see the welds on the handle of the waste tank top.The holes on the front of the machine could have been punched out more on center.

 

[Greenie]

Unfortunately there is more misinformation in this thread than information.

I'll let a few more chime in before i start kickin ass again.

 

[Jim Martin]

If all things were always the same and static, then yes.
But different length hose runs, or whether cleaning in a basement pulling solution up, or different carpet types causing more or less lift/airflow at the wand carpet interface all effect the amount of lift/airflow thru the fixed air leak.

Larry Nailed it here...way to many variations to depend on a FF system....

 

[Chris A]

...................................................................................................................

Cobby, i thought you said you used stainless "blower silencers" on your TMs.
That looks like a plain ole car muffler end hanging out the front of that TM. :roll:
if i not mistaken, it doesn't look very stainless steel either

..L.T.A.

That's a EZ in the pic Larry,

 

[Dolly Llama]

...................................................................................................................

Cobby, i thought you said you used stainless "blower silencers" on your TMs.
That looks like a plain ole car muffler end hanging out the front of that TM. :roll:
if i not mistaken, it doesn't look very stainless steel either

..L.T.A.

That's a EZ in the pic Larry,

thanks Chris
Since Cobby posted it, I was ASSuming

..L.T.A.

 

[Guest]

Nicks basic tms usually cost thousands less than tms with similar components. If you want as Mikey prefers " straight men with good looks " , I guess you go to Cali or spend more money.

If you're looking for pure performance at an affordable price Nick can hook you up . Proofs in the pudding , and you cant deny the machine jay uses , and quite a few others do the job and satisfies customers.

Just curious , did your Dad or brother go outside , see jays unit ( his TM ) and have negative comments , or did they really not give a crap ?? I'm betting they didnt give it a second thought .

 

[KevinD]

Unfortunately there is more misinformation in this thread than information.

I'll let a few more chime in before i start kickin ass again.

Well, Start kickin.
You sent me a pm. I don't mind if you post it here or correct any info.
I'm up for learning.

 

[Shane T]

I use a 2" Kunkle set at 15hg on my 47 blower with 2 1/2" hose and a glided 2" wand. The valve seldom opens but with the tuned cap on the valve inlet my vac never falls below 13" when it does. I really don't notice it when I'm cleaning. The way I see it I always have maximum available vac at the wand where I want it.

 

[Guest]

Can anyone post a picture of this kunkle cap ?? sounds like some sort of " controlled leak " mechanism .

 

[Chris A]

I couldn't find any on google, but its a PVC cap threaded over the vac opening, with 5 or six holes drilled in it.

 

[Shane T]

It controls the amount of air into the valve when it does open. I never "loose" vac when the valve opens.
This is what I made. It is an unthreaded pvc cap with holes drilled in it. A piece of aluminium with more holes drilled it and attached together with a bolt and nut. I can adjust the amount of opening buy turning the aluminium. I just put some black electric tape on the valve threads and slide the cap on, it seals nice.

 

[Greenie]

That is just it....running free flow would be like operating with your kunkle cap always open.
There is a big difference in that open for 2 seconds and closed for 18 seconds cycle, vs; open all day long.

I will elaborate more later....but let's sum this up briefly....MOST of the guys who think FreeFlow works as good or better than a precision valve have a large enough blower to start with, and they usually only run a single hose to a single wand, this means that they have "air to spare" and a 100 cfm leak doesn't kill them....long hose runs will show it's weakness though, and anyone who has installed a kunkle/Bayco knows the difference in "wand grab" it makes...Rex calls it Thump Factor, it's teh same thing you feel when you first switch to 2.5 hose.
There is no missing the thump factor, you have more LIFT at the wand....we don't clean vacuum gauges at the machine, so stop looking there, look at the wand carpet interface.

A kunkle on a #3 or small #4 blower can be amazing compared to a stock industry valve.

 

[Guest]

Lets see now . If I have free flow ( and maybe a 5 buck investment )and I set it at say 15 hg it stays at 15 hg.

If I have a kunkle modified with a pvc cap to control the amount of air it loses when it cycles open ( and a 200 buck investment )and I set it at 15 hg , what is the difference in vac when it opens ??

Maybe some testing is in order to illustrate exactly whats going on . I find it hard to justify any performance claims without any substantial comparison testing.

 

[Chris A]

sorry, the PVC is on my Bayco valve.

 

[Guest]

Lets see now . If I have free flow ( and maybe a 5 buck investment )and I set it at say 15 hg it stays at 15 hg.

If I have a kunkle modified with a pvc cap to control the amount of air it loses when it cycles open ( and a 200 buck investment )and I set it at 15 hg , what is the difference in vac when it opens ??

Maybe some testing is in order to illustrate exactly whats going on . I find it hard to justify any performance claims without any substantial comparison testing.

James,you are comparing a ff with a kunkle/bay /wangomatic(thats what Mikey likes to call them)but it is more like a spring and disc,which most guys dont realize leak just like your ff,where the controlled valves allow none, allowing all of the air to the wand,and when it reaches the preset hg point,then it allows some air in(safty)it should not be popping open all the time,hence a restriction problem,and I can save you 5 bucks,just poke a hole or 2 in hose :

 

[Mikey P]

Cooper


Why dont you come out to MF5 and you can be in charge of the Free Love shoot out.


You'll have a huge assortment of TM's to compare it on.



Bring Nick with you since Watson cant make it this year.

 

[Greenie]

Kevin makes a good point. If you are a free flow advocate, at least put your FF in a location that will assist overall vacuum, in the top of your wand head, that way atleast the air leaking will serve to keep your hoses clear if nothing else, might help with foam and such, at least you would be using your blowers full capacity instead of pissing it away for 60 sec. of every hour.

Coop, read my post, i made an edit, don't judge by a vacuum gauge that reads at the blower, judge by the Thump Factor on the carpet, if we could somehow install a vac gauge in the wand, you would see a more accurate example of what is going on...it's all about having more lift at the wand, not the blower.

Also....If you have a #5 blower with 4" ports, and use a 2" vac hose, don't expect to see much difference, you have Air to Spare, and over engineering in your favor....and you must have a precision releif valve that is matched to the CFM capacity of yoru blower....a 426 (maximum) cfm 2" kunkle or bayco probably will not work properly with a 560 cfm blower.... It might if you turn it slower to get within the valve's specs.

 

[Guest]

So the ass kicking revelation we been waiting on is basically " you must beleive in the the thump ? " Its kinda like beleiving in a higher power , just readjust your brain , throw science out the window and have faith in the thump ??

Sorry , Im a thump atheist , I gotta stick with science and physics when it comes to performance claims - surely its not so difficult to put numbers to this thumb factor to compare to FF ??

Isnt it just as simple as a side by side comparison of final drying times ??

James

 

[Chris A]

so Greenie anything larger than a 45 blower really won't see a difference in a precision valve?

 

[Guest]

more importantly , will guys like Kevin D. . get a full refund for buying an unneccesary valve ?
After all you did say its not necessary and cannot enhance his performance.

 

[KevinD]

more importantly , will guys like Kevin D. . get a full refund for buying an unneccesary valve ?
After all you did say its not necessary and cannot enhance his performance.

Just to clarify. I bought the Bayco valve from Greenie a couple years ago for a # 4MP blower to replace a vacuum relief that was shot. It served me well on that system till I retired it. It was my decision to purchase it and it was a hell of a lot better than the spring relief that was on it. So Coop no refund would be necessary.
I just decided to try it on the 38/56. Now I am being told it is not large enough to handle the blower. Maybe Greenie can explain why? My understanding is it will handle 400+ cfm and there is no way I am bleeding off 400 cfm to keep the vacuum at 15".

 

[KevinD]

Kevin makes a good point. If you are a free flow advocate, at least put your FF in a location that will assist overall vacuum, in the top of your wand head, that way atleast the air leaking will serve to keep your hoses clear if nothing else, might help with foam and such, at least you would be using your blowers full capacity instead of pissing it away for 60 sec. of every hour.

I have often thought of doing that but still feel the need for protection at the blower in case of filter clogging.
In a way you have a little free flow in your wand design if you are still recommending the popsicle stick gap at the end of the glide.

 

[Dolly Llama]

Coop, I'm not sure if you're just anti-Greenie, anti-Kunkle/Bayco, pro FF or somewhere in between?

I'm guessing you're not pro FF cause you don't use it on your TMs

I've already mentioned I prefer a "quality" spring relief valve over a permanent air leak or kunkle/bayco valve
maybe you could clarify what you prefer and way

Thanks

..L.T.A.

 

[Guest]

what Im against is hyping equipment as high performance without any facts , figures , numbers , ect. Its not about anti -Greenie , pro Nick , or any such things . I just wanted some real world numbers that would substantiate what he says the valve would do.

Having said that I am going to replace to the spring valve on my vortex and do some comparative drying tests and I will be sure to let you guys know. I guess there is no real reason to test a kunkle or bayco on the vortex is there ??

ON another note I got a real scare this morning as the blower on the vortex had locked up . I haven't ran it in a while so I guess a little rust has built up . But 1 can of pb blaster later it loosened up , thank god .

 

[Out of Character - 0]

On a high cfm machine a kunkle/bayco probably won't be an improvement unless you always run the same # of wands or switch to a restriction cap for each use.

Ours are set for 14 and never remain open below 13.5ish. Sometimes the hg's get as high as 15.5 with an upholstery tool or on commercial stairs.