Has anyone used a ph pen to test effectiveness of acid rinse

[hanks75]

I was thinking about using a ph pen to test ph level of carpet after using an acid rinse. I just want to make sure I'm leaving custy's carpet in a neutral state.

 

[Dolly Llama]

I just want to make sure I'm leaving custy's carpet in a neutral state.

can you tell me why that's important on wall to wall synthetic carpet?


..L.T.A.

 

[sweendogg]

What meat said... but yes I've used them and yes they will report a neutral to slightly acid state depending on what you are using to prespray with and what rinse you are using.

And again depending on what rinse you are using the quesiton you should be asking is are you removing all of the residue and extracting all of the soil effectively.

 

[Dolly Llama]

worth repeating
cause here in lies the key, Bill..

.

And again depending on what rinse you are using the quesiton you should be asking is are you removing all of the residue and extracting all of the soil effectively.

it's not whether you're leaving the carpet in a neutral PH state that matters



..L.T.A.

 

[joe harper]

I was thinking about using a ph pen to test ph level of carpet after using an acid rinse. I just want to make sure I'm leaving custy's carpet in a neutral state.

No...BUT...It sure would have come in handy...to TEST the ph of the SS fridge...that
you acid washed... :shock: :wink: :mrgreen:

 

[Mike Draper]

I use one quite a bit. You have to buy the calibration fluid packs to make sure they are reading correctly though. $30.00 for a box of that crap.

 

[amazingcleansc]

worth repeating
cause here in lies the key, Bill..

.

And again depending on what rinse you are using the quesiton you should be asking is are you removing all of the residue and extracting all of the soil effectively.

it's not whether you're leaving the carpet in a neutral PH state that matters



..L.T.A.

excuse me, if you leave it in an ALKALINE state it will attract dirt.

 

[Shawn Forsythe]

excuse me, if you leave it in an ALKALINE state it will attract dirt.

What evidence do you have in this regard?

And I am a strong proponent of rinse aid solutions.

pH has nothing to do with the resoiling nature of a residue insofar as it is any kind of indicator.
By and large, the determinant factor is what affinity to dry insoluble soil does the residue have. This type of soil has the greatest apparent soiling. Alkaline pH itself does not make the carpet sticky.

Dry insoluble soil tends to adhere to sticky residues, such that might be left when a sticky surfactant-laden carpet from pre-spray is insufficiently rinsed. A good rinse product will do TWO THINGS. First, it will have a rinse surfactant that assists plain water in removing the sticky, high-performance High HLB value surfactants that are typicsl in good presprays.

Second, it will return carpet to a pH state which is more amenable to dye stability, that being on the acid side or neutral. This acid state has nothing to do with a retarding soil attraction.

It is common misconception that because acidic rinses do aid in surfactant removal as a primary function, and that because it is acid, it is the reason it does this. Not true.

Those that are preoccupied with only the acidic characteristic of acid rinse products will never understand their full purpose.

 

[sweendogg]

^^^^^ ok see above ... see what I mean!!
That is not a proven fact. I'll wait for Forsythe to chime in here as well or Jim Pemperton with why they changed the latest IICRC Standards on this point.

First thing about chemistry you have to understand is alkaline does not attract acid and vice versa like postive attracts negative. That is a misconception. Now if the carpet is in an alkaline state because of the residue left by a high pH cleaner, then yes that will attract soil.

But you could use a citris acid rinse agent that would leave the carpet on an acid side but the residue would attract more soil than a simple water rinse.

Soap Free and other non detergent cleaning agents or self neutralizing agents have a higher pH but will not leave behind any soil attracting residue. It all depends on what is left behind, not necessarily the pH shift.

Now if you are cleaning natural fibers of most any sort then it becomes a very easy insurance to use an acid side rinse that is properly formulated.

 

[ruff]

What meat said... but yes I've used them and yes they will report a neutral to slightly acid state depending on what you are using to prespray with and what rinse you are using.

And again depending on what rinse you are using the quesiton you should be asking is are you removing all of the residue and extracting all of the soil effectively.

Nobody, including you and me and everybody else for that matter, removes ALL the soil.

Nobody, including you and me and everybody else for that matter, removes ALL the residue.

It's a myth, not worth perpetuating.

All we can do is strive to remove as much dirt as possible leaving behind as little residue as possible. And that the little residue that is left behind will not enhance re-soiling.

Water will leave a mineral residue.
Soft water will leave a salty residue.
Detergent rinse will leave an alkaline residue.
Acid rinse will leave an acidic residue.
Encapsulating rinse will leave a polymer residue and no, not all of it will be encapsulated and not all of it will be vacuumed off.

Try, going back right after your best cleaning job and just rinse with hot water and tell us how the water looked like.

The academy here would like to promote truth in advertisement

And the winner is...........

 

[Shawn Forsythe]

The newly revised (not yet released) IICRC S-100 is fairly clear on the subject of pH and carpet.

However, there is no mention of Ph is made in respect specifically to any relationship of pH and a tendency to resoil.

Each carpet fiber type have a favorable pH, and for some it is the resistance of the fiber to chemical change in the presence of alklinity or acidity, as is the case with certain natural fibers. Also , non-solution-dyed fibers will each have their respective tolerance for acidity and alkalinity, usually indicated by the manufacturer of the carpet. pH is but one indicator of relative acidity and alkalinity for which carpet may be subjected to while cleaning. If the fiber is found to be outside the pH range specified as favorable, the carpet should be rinsed with a solution within the target range to maintain dye stability and/or fiber integrity as needed. Certainly, one might use a pH meter to evaluate such process at the carpet fiber.

If however, there is a concern for resoiling due to cleaning residue from pre-application or prior use of a prespray containing surfactants that might leave a soil attracting residue, then it is desirable to rinse the carpet fibers with a solution that would accelerate removal by a rinse and extraction process. A rinse solution of water with the addition of a an appropriate rinse aid surfactant can have advantages over using water alone, e.g. by making the process faster and also with the use of less water, to retard over-wetting and hasten drying.

An acid rinse product with both an acidic component and a rinse aid component are desired for both/either pH correction to acidic side and/or rinse acceleration.

 

[Dolly Llama]

excuse me, if you leave it in an ALKALINE state it will attract dirt.

baloney

further, the guys using acid rinses with a citric acid base are leaving a neutral/acid side ph DIRT MAGNATE

Once again, let me repeat what young Jedi Sweendoggie just said;


"It all depends on what is left behind, not necessarily the pH shift. "


.L.T.A.

 

[Curtis Pennington]

excuse me, if you leave it in an ALKALINE state it will attract dirt.

baloney

further, the guys using acid rinses with a citric acid base are leaving a neutral/acid side ph DIRT MAGNATE

Once again, let me repeat what young Jedi Sweendoggie just said;


"It all depends on what is left behind, not necessarily the pH shift. "


Love it!..Ive been preaching that to my guys/friends for awhile!


.L.T.A.

 

[amazingcleansc]

excuse me, if you leave it in an ALKALINE state it will attract dirt.

baloney

further, the guys using acid rinses with a citric acid base are leaving a neutral/acid side ph DIRT MAGNATE

Once again, let me repeat what young Jedi Sweendoggie just said;


"It all depends on what is left behind, not necessarily the pH shift. "


.L.T.A.

I'm a little confused. What would one of us POSSIBLY leave the carpet in an alkaline state besides detergent residue? Pee?

And isn't detergent what everyone in here uses to clean? The question I guess is what is the most effective way to neutralize a detergent. Take a minute and google "what is the most effective way to neutralize an alkaline." Find me even ONE entry that doesn't say with an acid and I will leave you alone.

Also, who brought citric acid into this discussion? Fab Set has a pH of 2, which is much less than the pH of citric acid.

A STRONG DETERGENT DOESNT WANT TO RINSE WELL WITH WATER. Wet you hands, rub Tide on them and try to rinse them under the faucet until there is no slippery feeling left. It will take WAY more flushing and time than most carpet cleaners are willing to put on a carpet fiber.

FURTHERMORE, if you spritz a little bit of something acidic on your hands, that detergent residue is gone, aka NEUTRALIZED.

Why do you think that Detergent packets you put in the dishwasher have the little ball in them that is designed to dissolve LAST? Certainly not because detergent rinses effectively with water alone.

Detergent is designed to attract soil. The only effective way to neutralize a REALLY STRONG detergent is an Acid side rinse.

I'm not talking about a nice, 10 pH cleaner that is designed to rinse freely with water. I'm talking about cheap detergent around pH of 12+ that most cleaners out in the field use and rinse improperly.

EVEN FURTHERMORE, what about ALKALINE detergent residue wouldn't cause it to promote resoiling with ACID side soil? YOU tell ME. If someone walks into a house with damp shoes that contain ACIDIC soil on them, which carpet will be more likely to dissolve the dirt from the bottom of someone's shoes, the one with alkaline residue or the one with acidic "residue".

I agree with you guys, if you use a good quality chemical, it may be designed to rinse well with water,

If you are using something with RESTORATIVE strength, like ALL THE TOP SELLING CARPET CLEANING CHEMICALS IN AMERICA, then it will NOT rinse well with water, especially not hard or elevated-pH chlorinated water that you know damn well a lot of guys are putting in their fresh tanks.

 

[sweendogg]

excuse me, if you leave it in an ALKALINE state it will attract dirt.

baloney

further, the guys using acid rinses with a citric acid base are leaving a neutral/acid side ph DIRT MAGNATE

Once again, let me repeat what young Jedi Sweendoggie just said;


"It all depends on what is left behind, not necessarily the pH shift. "


.L.T.A.

I'm a little confused. What would one of us POSSIBLY leave the carpet in an alkaline state besides detergent residue? Pee?
Soap Free and other non detergent cleaning agents or self neutralizing agents have a higher pH but will not leave behind any soil attracting residue. Read Dr. Forsythe above but again its the surfactants that help rinse away the alkaline residues.

And isn't detergent what everyone in here uses to clean? The question I guess is what is the most effective way to neutralize a detergent. Take a minute and google "what is the most effective way to neutralize an alkaline." Find me even ONE entry that doesn't say with an acid and I will leave you alone.

Also, who brought citric acid into this discussion? Fab Set has a pH of 2, which is much less than the pH of citric acid. The point was being made that acid rinses neutralize alkaline and thus must the point that citric acid is not a good rinse agent was made a counter to your argument.. Citric Acid will leave more of a residue that will attract soil than alot of even detergent rinse will.
A STRONG DETERGENT DOESNT WANT TO RINSE WELL WITH WATER. Wet you hands, rub Tide on them and try to rinse them under the faucet until there is no slippery feeling left. It will take WAY more flushing and time than most carpet cleaners are willing to put on a carpet fiber.

FURTHERMORE, if you spritz a little bit of something acidic on your hands, that detergent residue is gone, aka NEUTRALIZED.

Why do you think that Detergent packets you put in the dishwasher have the little ball in them that is designed to dissolve LAST? Certainly not because detergent rinses effectively with water alone.

Detergent is designed to attract soil. The only effective way to neutralize a REALLY STRONG detergent is an Acid side rinse.

I'm not talking about a nice, 10 pH cleaner that is designed to rinse freely with water. I'm talking about cheap detergent around pH of 12+ that most cleaners out in the field use and rinse improperly.

EVEN FURTHERMORE, what about ALKALINE detergent residue wouldn't cause it to promote resoiling with ACID side soil? YOU tell ME. If someone walks into a house with damp shoes that contain ACIDIC soil on them, which carpet will be more likely to dissolve the dirt from the bottom of someone's shoes, the one with alkaline residue or the one with acidic "residue".

I agree with you guys, if you use a good quality chemical, it may be designed to rinse well with water,

If you are using something with RESTORATIVE strength, like ALL THE TOP SELLING CARPET CLEANING CHEMICALS IN AMERICA, then it will NOT rinse well with water, especially not hard or elevated-pH chlorinated water that you know damn well a lot of guys are putting in their fresh tanks.

 

[amazingcleansc]

David, what about the whole second half of my post? what do you have to respond in green to that? As a matter of fact I think I covered Soap-free type rinses in my response

Samuel L. Jackson.

 

[Hoody]

We got squeak!

 

[Dolly Llama]

David, what about the whole second half of my post? what do you have to respond in green to that? As a matter of fact I think I covered Soap-free type rinses in my response

Samuel L. Jackson.

rinse your hands in "conditioned" water.
It feels kind of "slimy"
do you think that's a result of "residue" or a lack of water surface tension?

citric is the acid used in MANY acid rinses.
it leaves an AWFUL residue .
What's the acid in the rinse you use?
Do you know?


"Fabset"?
Is that a Doc Aziz product?
are you aware that Doc Aziz says common soil found in residential homes is alkaline?


lastly, just because the acid residue you left on the carpet isn't "slippery" it's no measure of how fast it will resoil


..L.T.A.

 

[ruff]

Also many alkaline cleaners contain water softeners.
It could be that what he describes is due to the water softeners, as you will get the same feeling if you washed your hands in soft water.

 

[amazingcleansc]

David, what about the whole second half of my post? what do you have to respond in green to that? As a matter of fact I think I covered Soap-free type rinses in my response

Samuel L. Jackson.

rinse your hands in "conditioned" water.
It feels kind of "slimy"
do you think that's a result of "residue" or a lack of water surface tension?

Try the same thing with detergent, which one is MORE slimy. And I think its worth noting that, right or wrong, probably 90% of cleaners don't even use a water softener. How dumb would it be for one of them to not mix something acidic with their rinse?

citric is the acid used in MANY acid rinses.
it leaves an AWFUL residue .
What's the acid in the rinse you use?
Do you know?

Glycolic Acid mainly, and a small amount of citric acid.


"Fabset"?
Is that a Doc Aziz product?
are you aware that Doc Aziz says common soil found in residential homes is alkaline?

Bridgepoint


lastly, just because the acid residue you left on the carpet isn't "slippery" it's no measure of how fast it will resoil

Fine. just suppose it HAPPENS to be slippery as a result of being cleaned with too powerful of a detergent that isn't paired with a powerful enough detergent neutralizing acid, since the best selling carpet cleaning chemicals are (and I think the national retailers will back me up on this one) are pH 12+ chems.


..L.T.A.

I'm not disagreeing with anything you are saying. You are just assuming that I am using a BAD acid rinse as opposed to your GOOD prespray.

If you want go the soft water rinse route and you do everything to balance it out properly, then you are doing a good job.

Conversely, if you use Flex, Olefin Blast, Traffic Slam, or Friggin Purple Power on a carpet your soft water wont rinse the detergent nearly as well as a GOOD acid rinse. operative word GOOD.

I'm not talking about a residential house that is already reasonably clean and being mild about my chemistry.

I spend a lot of time "painting" apartments so what seems to work the best is a REALLY alkaline prespray, a LITTLE BIT of citrus solvent and a LITTLE BIT of oxidizer.

I neutralize it with an acid side rinse.

Tell me where I'm messing up.

 

[sweendogg]

Why not add a little more oxygen in the final rinse? Like a Soap free and get a little more kick?? Otherwise there is nothing wrong with rinsing with a good acid rinse.. But citric acid would not be our first choice... I personally prefer an acetic acid rinse like master rinse. And for low soiling situations or heavy soap residues I will use an acid side rinse. But not because I'm neutralizing the alkaline pH, but because a properly formulated rinse will remove older detergent residues, can help minimize foaming as well as as Shawn said, for certain carpets will help set the dyes. Though I use probabaly lot more acids in our rug wash program then in our carpet cleaning.

I was rushed earlier so I didn't get a lot of time to finish the second half.. here is the second half.

A STRONG DETERGENT DOESNT WANT TO RINSE WELL WITH WATER. Wet you hands, rub Tide on them and try to rinse them under the faucet until there is no slippery feeling left. It will take WAY more flushing and time than most carpet cleaners are willing to put on a carpet fiber. Take the same and use as hot as water as possible as you can take and see how quicker it rinses. Heat also plays a big role in helping break down the surface tension of the water to aid in removing those alkakine builders. (also remember that high alkaline can be just as corrosive as a high acid so that slimy feeling can also be the break down of you exterior layer of epidermis and not merely residue you are feeling. FURTHERMORE, if you spritz a little bit of something acidic on your hands, that detergent residue is gone, aka NEUTRALIZED. Or you have removed the damaged layer of skin cells.. either way

Why do you think that Detergent packets you put in the dishwasher have the little ball in them that is designed to dissolve LAST? Certainly not because detergent rinses effectively with water alone. Read direction a little better, the rinse agent is mostly to help prevent redeposition of detergent residues not to neutralize the detergency. http://www.rbnainfo.com/productpro/Prod ... template=1

Detergent is designed to attract soil. The only effective way to neutralize a REALLY STRONG detergent is an Acid side rinse. (If we were talking about neutralizing the pH then sure, and even then you'd have to peform a titration to see just how much of an acidic solution you would need to neutralize the pH.. but that doesn't account for the detergent residue. Detergents/surfactants/emulsifiers are designed to remove soil from fibers and hold it in suspension for extraction. Some cleaning solutions are designed to be released better with an acid side cleaning solution and others are easily rinsed with any type of rinse agent. )

I'm not talking about a nice, 10 pH cleaner that is designed to rinse freely with water. I'm talking about cheap detergent around pH of 12+ that most cleaners out in the field use and rinse improperly.

EVEN FURTHERMORE, what about ALKALINE detergent residue wouldn't cause it to promote resoiling with ACID side soil? YOU tell ME. If someone walks into a house with damp shoes that contain ACIDIC soil on them, which carpet will be more likely to dissolve the dirt from the bottom of someone's shoes, the one with alkaline residue or the one with acidic "residue". See Shawn Forsythe's post above.. again I reiterate.. pH is not a factor that determines if something will resoil.
I agree with you guys, if you use a good quality chemical, it may be designed to rinse well with water,

If you are using something with RESTORATIVE strength, like ALL THE TOP SELLING CARPET CLEANING CHEMICALS IN AMERICA, then it will NOT rinse well with water, especially not hard or elevated-pH chlorinated water that you know damn well a lot of guys are putting in their fresh tanks.

 

[topnotchman]

I dont know about some of these products, but I use a rinse that has citric acid in it (not sure how much), and I tested it out on my own home before my customers homes. Its been 7 months and its still looking great, and still feels soft. Doesn't appear to attract soil super fast and my family tracks in crap all the time.

 

[sweendogg]

viewtopic.php?f=114&t=19696&hilit=Rinse+Agents

 

[SDSinc]

Holy Crap. I thought I was smart until I read this thread.

Would someone just please tell me a good pre-spray and rinse combo to clean 90% of the residental out there?

 

[sweendogg]

O2 system is a great combo for 90 % of residential synethetic carpet

Zone Perfect and End Zone is a great combo

Redline and Master Rinse is a great combo

Your favorite prespray and most any acetic acid rinses are a great combo.

And if you have a very soiled carpet, don't be afraid to use a detergent rinse or an emulsfying rinse like Soap free that has good cleaning ability and no residue.

 

[amazingcleansc]

O2 system is a great combo for 90 % of residential synethetic carpet

Zone Perfect and End Zone is a great combo

Redline and Master Rinse is a great combo

Your favorite prespray and most any acetic acid rinses are a great combo.

And if you have a very soiled carpet, don't be afraid to use a detergent rinse or an emulsfying rinse like Soap free that has good cleaning ability and no residue.

thats exactly what i use in cleaning jobs. If I'm restoring, that doesn't work so well. at all. and name a good detergent rinse that doesn't leave a STICKY, SURFACTANT residue?

 

[sweendogg]

A detergent is used to emulsify soils. how about an emulsifier that doesn't use detergent... Such as Soap Free or oxgen Release from Pro's choice.

Or how about an encapsulant detergent made for HWE like Encap Punch, or Low Foam Snake Oil?

And there are good detergent rinses that rinse just as freely as many of the acid rinses. The only difference is the hightened pH state it can leave fibers in. Alot of synthetic fibes will never have a problem with dyes destabilizing from a small shift in pH.

Some examples of good rinse detergents: Dry Slurry is one use quite often used by many cleaners and often still effective at lower dilution rates. Masterblend's Rage is a super duty emulsifier . (Really AgGressive Emulsifier) that is residue free. Also the Anti Allergen All fiber Rinse is also a residue free alkaline rinse agent self neutralizing of course.

Planet Guard Fiber Rinse is a self neutralizing Alkaine Rinse as well.

 

[Dolly Llama]

and name a good detergent rinse that doesn't leave a STICKY, SURFACTANT residue?

I haven't tried all of them, but "most" of the "major brand " ones don't leave a "sticky" residue.

Most guys use way more than they need too.
If they'd use a "quality" pre-spray in "sufficient" quantity along with dwell and/or mechanical agitation, they'd only need 1/3 to half of manufactures recommend dilution .
(referring to detergent in the TM stock tank)

The whole idea is to "condition" the rinse solution to aid in rinsing the suspended soils and pre-spray.
most TM detergents do a very good job of that

"some" acid rinses do as well.
some (most?) don't...
but it ain't got anything to do with PH

Shawn knows the good ones from the bad ones.
I understand being in the position he's in, he may be hesitant to name the ones that are junk
some of those junk ones wear "major brand" labels too.
But maybe we could persuade him to mention one or two of the "best" ones that aid in rinsing

the "key" is to aid in rinsing


side note;
Young Jedi Sweeny might be "OK" with encRap rinses, but I'm not convinced they're "all that".
same for the "anti-wicking" pixie dust juices that attempt to cover poor wand rinse technique.

not only that, but tell me how useful an encRap rinse would be if we clean a carpet then apply protectant over the encRap pixie dust residue??


..L.T.A.

 

[sweendogg]

Actuelly I never used the encap rinses. I usually do as you prescribed, if I need to use an alkaline rinse I usually mix a quality powdered detergent 1/3 dilution ratio to conition the water, pH is the least of the worries if the carpet is soiled enough.

Otherwise I jump between using Masterblend All Fiber for light soiling, Masterblend Soap free for light or moderate soiling and in areas where resoling is a very high potential, Formula 90/Finish First on heavier soiled at 1/3 dilution and I find I am really impressed with the Planet Guard TLC and Rinse. ( I got a few cases of this stuff free a while back and just trying to use it up here and there, but it takes care of a large range of soiling conditions.) And its safe and quite effective on wool wall to wall carpets as well. I also keep O2 system around for most of my pet customers because I've yet to find a combo that is so effective on the general odor and yellow pet stains with out any additional treatment except in areas of high contamination. I keep a few nuclear products around but most cases of high soil simply needs a good scubbing eliminating a need for nuclear chemistry.

Though the encap rinses were designed to be use in conjunction with a low moisture cleaning. In other words if you have been using say Releasit DS to encap a store 3 times a year and the 4th cleaning is an extraction cleaning, Then you could use the encap punch as a prespray and rinse combo that is developed from the same line so no chance of compromising the crystalizing properties. I don't mind using encap products but I want to be darn sure they turn to a non sticky brittle crystal.. (better be some damn good pixie dust in other words!) And I will admit that the couple of accounts I take care of this way have stayed looking cleaner longer using an encap program for maintenance and a HWE ever couple of cleanings.

Shawn likes Hydroxyacetic acid as his go to acid rinse. Chemspec and Masterblend both utilize these products in their fiber rinse solutions, Hydramaster uses that acid in their Clear Water Rinse.

 

[Bucey]

Re: Has anyone used a ph pen to test effectiveness of acid r

just what i was looking for, very confusing but taking some time to take it all in makes a little sense. soooo, how many different rinse jugs do you guys carry on the truck. sounds like three!