How much heat do you really need?

[gimmeagig]

Hi,
I'm thinking about buying a used truck with a 1999 CDS 4,8 unit in it that has 5100 hrs.
The seller says the machine gets up to about 190 degrees and that that translates to about 120 at the bottom of the wand.He says that is all the heat you need to do a good job.A local dealer tells me that everybody goes to the high heat machines that produce 220- 240 degrees. and that 190 is not enough.Of course he would like me to buy a new machine from him, but starting out I don't have the money for that.
I'm new to this whole thing and as I'm learning more I'm getting more confused.
Is the CDS a good machine? I had also looked at an older PTO how does that compare to a CDS?
How much heat do you really need to do a good job?

 

[Mikey P]

Depends on how you want to clean...
Do you want to pre vac, pre spray, agitate and then rinse?
or do you want to just run detergents through the machine and wand scrub that dirt loose?

The later will take as much heat as possible while the right way will not need as much but 190 ATM is a bit low IMO.

 

[Matt King]

I think flow is the most important myself. Heat isn't absolutely critical IMO. Especially if you don't live in a cold climate. I say this because I've made trashed carpets look new with a Steamin Demon using luke warm (and sometimes cold) water. You may just need a little extra pre-treatment is all. With that said, heat is nice. You can get away with using less chemical and can clean a little faster. Mike is right here, it depends on How you want to clean. Since you'll be an owner/operator and starting out small I think a CDS would be just fine if the price is right on it. One thing to remember, with any machine you can always add a nice little LP post heater. Then you can dial in pretty much any temperature you want. I'm sure Greenie could get you one for a good price and it only takes a few minutes to put in your van or take out if you decide you don't need it. On the pto/cds question, a CDS (Clutch Drive System) is a PTO (Power Take Off) as it is taking power from the engine of the van to run your machine. The term PTO is also used in our industry to describe a transmission powered unit like a Vortex. Some older vans also had transmission powered units. I would have to know what older unit you looked at to tell you the differences between the two machines. Either way, given your situation I wouldn't spend a ton of money on your equipment. From my understanding you weren't going to make this a life long career but just wanted to do this on the side..? There are alot of machines that can accomplish your needs being this is the case.

 

[Dolly Llama]

More guys clean with 200 and under than not, I'd guess.

Use high quality pre-sprays in sufficient quantity and proper dwell time or mechanical agitation and you'll be fine with 170 to 190 temps at the machine (ATM)

Good chems can make a HUGE difference.
Don't be afraid to use mucho pre-spray on soiled carpets.
Take your time with SLOW keyed back strokes and flush/rinse well

You'll be farting through silk in no time....


PS...as long as you don't intend to make a living cleaning greasy spoon restaurants or melting candle wax in trashed student rentals, you'll be fine with 190 temps


..L.T.A.

 

[Guest]

190 is fine.

 

[adamh]

190 works, but once you have cleaned with real high heat its tough going back.

I started with a Spitfire 3.2. Never did it spit fire. They didn't even put a temp gauge on it because they new the heat sucked. After cleaning with it for about 3 months I bought a $400.00 inline heater. What a difference!! It may have only given me 25-30 degrees more but it cut the dirt so much better.

I like heat. I can sure tell the difference between 190 and 240. But I can't tell the difference after that. I have cleaned with 280 and only thought the hose was hotter but I don't think it cleaned any better.

IMO

 

[Doug Cox]

You can gain 15 degrees just by moving up to a 205 thermostat.

 

[gimmeagig]

Thanks for bearing with me, and helping me through this.You probably know that I have another thread going.
The CDS 4.8 is a 1999 Hydramaster and the PTO that I was looking at was a Prochem.In the meantime I heard that the older Prochem was a very unreliable machine with serious designflaws.I had the local shop do a buyers inspection and it was not good.
I'm also having the truck with the Hydramaster inspected.That should give me more info.
This LP post heater sounds kind of interesting.I could fire that one up when a carpet is really dirty and not use it for regular cleaning right?
Where can I get that type of heater,Is it expensive?I assume it is a propane heater. Is there any danger using it around an already hot machine?
Another carpet cleaner wrote me to absolutely stay away from a Hydramaster CDS 4.8 with 5100 hrs on it.He suggests to buy a new machine and a used truck.I wish I could follow his advice.I just don't have the money to do that.
This is really difficult.The guy at the local shop is very helpful and gives me a lot of good info, this board is great, and the seller of the CDS is a established company with 20 trucks.He's on the board here as the Great OZ I just found out.I like him from talking to him and he seems to be a very knowledgeabe and gracious guy.I've had numerous conversations with him and he's very patient.
I don't want to waste anyones time and I know eventually when I make a decision it will still be a leap of faith.I just don't want to start out with a rig that has serious flaws.What to do What to do.....

 

[Vincent Feehan]

do not buy the CDS

Dont buy the CDS, way to many hours and miles,

You will regret it, Buy a used Prochem 405, blueline thermalwave

Nissan motors are workhorse,s

Vince

 

[XTREME1]

I wouldn't buy it, I would find something with low hrs ask around on the board here and someone will come up with something that will be better for you. High heat............Adam when you give your numbers is it at the wand or the machine? I clean at 200-220 atw sometimes much lower depending on the flow I sometimes read 170atw and that is with the rotary. Are your 280 or 240 at the machine? Because at the wand I find no difference between 180 and 210

 

[Matt King]

Well, whatever you decide, just don't buy the old Prochem pto. You can't get parts for it anymore and the parts are many.... I think they used to have contests to see who could come up with the most parts for any given machine. As for the LP heater, yes it's a small propane heater. Fire it up when you want higher heat or just leave it off if you don't. There's no danger in using it once you know how it works. 500 bucks can get you a nice one.. 5100 hours is alot so definitely listen to your mechanic on that unit.

 

[gimmeagig]

I was told by our local shop that one of the advantages of direct drives is that since there is no motor they are more reliable and last longer than slideins.I was also told that the lifespan of a slidein is at least 8000 hrs for a watercooled one and some of the better ones can last over 12000 hrs.
So if this hydramaster CDS has 5100 hrs why is that too many hours?I'm confused.Here's what I'm thinking right now.
I learned that carpetcleaners that are doing good business run about 1000 hrs per year.So I'm thinking that the CDS Machine at 5100 hrs might have about 5 years left.
I would like to get a machine that has at least 3 years left on it.If the business works out for me I would be able to really get what I want then.
So even if the CDS only lasts 3 more years I'd still be OK with that.
Even if the engine in the truck (83000 mi) blows up a year from now,a rebuild might cost about 2500?That still wouldn't be the end of the world.
Does that make any sense at all?

 

[XTREME1]

Good luck with your CDS hope you do well

 

[Out of Character - 0]

cds

__--__

 

[Doug Cox]

Well, my CDS is 23 yrs. old, I can only imagine how many thousands of hours are on that and it still runs like a champ. It comes down to how well it is taken care of. I would be a little leery of the fact it came out of a fleet, although the condition of it may say otherwise. I say look at the engine and the blower/ pump assembly and then see if the machine is complete and that should tell you what you need to know. There just isn't much to go wrong with the HM CDS. I think the CDS bashers are guys who don't have a clue about fixing or adjusting them.

 

[floorguy]

sooo i guess(unless i missed it) how much is it, might be a factor in peoples thoughts..

post heater lookie here

http://www.little-giant.com/cleaning_heating.html

gives an idea, most dont have the little cart....and there are others to buy from like greenie, but this gives you an idea



and this is what i bought, more money but the quality is out standing...

http://www.silverhawke.com/carpetcleaner.htm

 

[Dolly Llama]

See if Brian will take $9K for it.

I don't know Brian O personally, but from reading his posts over the years, I'd bet a nickle his equipment is well maintained.
I also wouldn't hesitate to trust him as being a straight shooter.

He'd also make a great biz mentor

..L.T.A.

 

[Joe Appleby]

The Seller

I know Bryan. He is one of the most knowledgeable people in this business. Most importantly, he's honest and fair. I also run 7 hydromaster CDS'. They are reliable machines and easy to work on.

 

[Vincent Feehan]

Cds are great

That's why our CDS ended up in court, with 48 days down, We had a box full of parts that were fried up.

We sued hydramaster and won big time,

I guess we had a lemon with all the positive post here.

Make sure is doesn't have a 351 motor, because they cook all the wires etc.

Remember you loose all air movement all high rpms, the 4.7 ran way to high.


Good luck in your purchase

Vince

 

[Doug Cox]

Vince- That sounds like a van issue not a machine issue.

How fast did the 4.7's run?

 

[tman7]

Re: Cds are great

That's why our CDS ended up in court, with 48 days down, We had a box full of parts that were fried up.

We sued hydramaster and won big time,

I guess we had a lemon with all the positive post here.

Make sure is doesn't have a 351 motor, because they cook all the wires etc.

Remember you loose all air movement all high rpms, the 4.7 ran way to high.


Good luck in your purchase

Vince

Well even my little 6 cyl Astro has had some issues with heat, the ignition module had to be replaced many times by the original owner and also (once so far) by me. But other than that my HM cds has run great. They seem much easier to work on than a slide in.

 

[gimmeagig]

I'm sure glad i found this board.Thank you all again, I know what to do now.
Doug, If I go to a 205 thermostat on a Dodge B250 van, could that be harmful to the engine?It gets pretty hot up here in northern Idaho in the summer.

 

[Out of Character - 0]

It's hot here in vegas, we only run 198 in our fords, but the van can clean run 6-8 hrs non stop and the temp gage on the van doesn't move. Open your hood in the summer, it will keep stuff from burning up in there. On our white magics you have to open the flip lid on the console to keep the temp in the machine below 140F. I don't know about the HM but I imagine its the same deal

 

[Doug Cox]

I've always ran a 205

 

[Jtuseo]

I had a guy who sells portables tell me you can clean with cold water.

 

[Kevin B]

I had a guy who sells portables tell me you can clean with cold water.

VLM's will tell you that too.

 

[John Watson]

Bryan maintains and rotates his vans on a regular basis. I know of no other company that has all the steps in place to Keep all things going smooth. There are many of Bryan's old vans out there today still cleaning every day. There is not a more trusted or likable guy in this industry. I am one who is glad to call him friend, Just hopes he feels the same about me.

Now will it run forever?? NO

Is it in good shape??? It's used but maintained Looks great.

Would I buy it if I needed it? In a heartbeat

But if you don't make up your mind some one else will see all this and buy it out from under you and then you can come buy my Bruin II that ain't got a trk with it. like we talked about earlier......

 

[Kevin B]

I know where a bruin II is for cheap.

 

[gimmeagig]

Hey John,
I have made up my mind about that truck and I'm already having the brakes done on it.So I guess I committed.No truck on my budget is going to be without flaws.I know that, but I have a feeling that this truck is going to be a good staring point for me.And if this carpetcleanig thing ends up as enjoyable as I'm hoping it will be, I can always get a newer truck later on and sell this one.Bryan really does seem to be a great guy.I liked him right away.I'm glad I hooked up with him on this truck.Craigs list is where I found it and it was aready sold when I called Bryan,then the buyer backed out last minute.My luck I think.

 

[Kevin B]

Only thing I wouldn't like about a CDS is the gas bill!