If I were Bill Bruders...

[Mikey P]

I would call AT and give them the ultimatum.


Re engineer the Vortex to work on the International/Ford AND the Izuzu platform and you can make them for us.

Keep the silencer from Blueline but ditch all the rest, use your round fresh tanks and HX system and hire Adam Hale to handle PR/CADs.

Go back to the 59 blower too for the single wand only guys..

 

[gasaxe]

I would call AT and give them the ultimatum.


Re engineer the Vortex to work on the International/Ford AND the Izuzu platform and you can make them for us.

Keep the silencer from Blueline but ditch all the rest, use your round fresh tanks and HX system and hire Adam Hale to handle PR/CADs.

Go back to the 59 blower too for the single wand only guys..

that wuz all making good sense until the part about the 59 blower....

 

[Mikey P]

I take it you have not tried it

 

[dealtimeman]

mikey hit it!

















HOLE IN ONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Larry Cobb]

Mikey;

Are you saying the almighty Vortex....

is

. . not

. . . . . perfect :roll:

Larry

 

[gasaxe]

I take it you have not tried it

tried what? a 59 blower..... I built a unit for my stepdad that has a 1.3L 4cyl ford industrial engine with a 59 roots.
So yea ive tried one, cleaned carpet in the same building with a 59 roots and a 68 roots both running single tools.

 

[Mikey P]

and for single wanding you think you felt a improvement with the 6008?

 

[Mikey P]

This whole ordeal is bringing out the worse in you Larry.

 

[hogjowl]

I can't imagine the price difference between a 59 and a 6008 blower to be big enough to justify limiting yourself to only one wand when spending the money you have to spend to get a Vortex.

 

[gasaxe]

and for single wanding you think you felt a improvement with the 6008?

no improvement in cleaning per say. Its just that a 59 moves a bit more volume of air and is rated for a little less lift than a 68. You have to turn the 59 at about 1k rpm faster than a 68 (to the best of my recolection) to get max performance. A smaller blower turning faster equates to a higher pitch out of the exhaust. Thats probably the reason the v/ats are getting quieter bcause they are going with a big "case" blower that doesnt have to spin as fast to move a given amount of air. Ive got a buddy with a 120 horse turbocharged johndeer driving a true #7. It will handle three tools with ease and doesnt have to be spun hard.
The same as my wifes denali compared to my diesel pickup... the 6.0 gasser has to have the rpm up when your passing or towing where as my truck gets the job done at much lower rpm. You really dont notice the diesel working as hard as that gasser (screaming at 4k + rpm)
trying pass or pulling a trailer.

 

[Bob Foster]

The difference between a 59 and 68 when single wanding is the vacuum relief on the 6008 is open more than it's open on a 59 which is also open a lot.

The difference between a 47 and a 59 when single wanding is the vacuum relief on the 6008 is open more than it's open on a 59 which is also open a lot.
Single wanders don't need a 59.

The difference between driving a 47 and a 59 from revolutions and torque is a 47 cannot be sold economically with a diesel engine because the low torque/hp engines are either junk and not ubiquitous enough for parts and a good small diesel is so expensive as to make the units price non-competitive.

A 59 can be put on a range of different good affordable diesels that are well suited to the hp/torque curve requirements of that PD blower.

Now lets talk about heat, that's another ball game.

If I was BL I would offer a 59 diesel powered in a 15 foot van for the dual wanders and for single wanders a 47 gas powered in a 14 foot for single wanders and a 16 foot for resto guys. The carpet cleaning units would have dropped floor beds for easy of access for parking and walking in and out of the box and handling stability and the restoration trucks would be non-drop bedded units with an under-mounted ramp for access and egress of rolling equipment.

 

[Guest]

Bobs right,why would you want a 59 purposely for single,and just for you 2 yahoos that have a Vortex (Mickey and Mcfly) would you rather have a 59 at full capability or a 68(which doesnt move much more)at 60%? obviously,you both chose the latter.

 

[Jim Martin]

lets not get away from the distance factor........I do a few pretty good size long runs.....

what would the difference be pulling 350 foot threw a 59 vs pulling it threw a 6008...

I single wand 98% of the time....Everyone forgets..mine is a 1200 not the larger 1400....
I only carry the smaller 135 gallon tank...Perfect for myself as much as I single wand

But in those times I do duel wand it is nice to know I can go the distance and not worry with a 6008...............

Also...is the 7000 pulling anymore the the 6008.....

 

[Guest]

I dont know Jim,lets have Coop do a test

 

[The Great Oz]

Since the Legends guys probably don't need the big truck ego boost, I'd guess that the Vortex' fate would become the routine business decision based on profitability.

Are there enough guys that want to buy the existing model, or with little improvements?

Would the bigger potential customer base be enough to offset the engineering costs in making the layout more space efficient?

Would they be farther ahead spending their R&D dollars developing units with a broader market appeal and selling Vortex, or having the AT guys build a badge-engineered version of the AT?

 

[Bob Foster]

Since the Legends guys probably don't need the big truck ego boost, I'd guess that the Vortex' fate would become the routine business decision based on profitability.

Are there enough guys that want to buy the existing model, or with little improvements?

No

Would the bigger potential customer base be enough to offset the engineering costs in making the layout more space efficient?
Yes if they follow your next idea

Would they be farther ahead spending their R&D dollars developing units with a broader market appeal and selling Vortex, or having the AT guys build a badge-engineered version of the AT?


They could offer a break through welcome differenciation to a much large audience if they could loose the York concept. And shave the unit cost by 12 grand with some wise engineering. Butler blew it.

The only time you are going to get their attention to do this is in their honeymoon stage when they are in the mood to prototype.
Mr. Bruders my phone is always on.

 

[gasaxe]

http://www.rootsblower.com/documents/UR ... -12k84.pdf


a 59 roots pump is rated for 15" hg max moves 770cfm at 2850 rpm. 30.8 bhp

a 68 roots is rated for 16" hg max moves 715 cfm at 2350 rpm. 32.8 bhp

unless im missing something the 59 is gonna have the relief open more in a single wand application. It moves more air and has less max lift. Therefore it will need more air to bleed through the relief to keep it below max lift specs.

the other thing is with the same two pumps,

59 at 1760 rpm 12" hg max 445 cfm 15 brake hp.

68 at 1760 rpm 15" hg max 495 cfm 22.7 brake hp.

you can slow the 68 down a bit and still keep the lift up in the 15 to 16 range without "wasting" as much air through the relief.

the hp requirements are about the same for the two at either speed so no gain going with the smaller pump in that respect.

the 68 is only about 80lbs heavier than the 59 so again not much of a gain there either.


The other angle here is that the specs on these pumps are at a set atmosphere condition. From what i understand the end determining factor for op conditions is the outlet temp of the exhaust of the pump. I think the max outlet temp is 250 deg. inlet air temp. and surely humidty level of the air being moved will have significant effect on the outlet temp.


Im sure m.d. and sutorbuilt have their own specs but from what ive looked they all fall around the same numbers for similiar sized pumps. Ive also read that some companys have "special" pumps made with looser/tighter tolerances in order to achieve a certain lift/cfm rating for a particular unit.


based on these numbers i would rather have the 68. you can slow it down and run single wand and still have respectable lift cfm numbers or you can spin it up and dual wand.
The 59 is gonna have to spin close to max rpm in order to maintain 15"hg regardless of the tool(s) you are using.

 

[Bob Foster]

You have to keep the diesel in its most effective point in the torque band where its working harder. Diesels love this more than not working enough. That's why I think a 59 would be better. The cooler the blower works the better and heat should come from some other source such as the exhaust diverter and/or a coolant exchange system. Simple is good.

 

[Greenie]

"The 59 is gonna have to spin close to max rpm in order to maintain 15"hg regardless of the tool(s) you are using."

Not exactly true, you can spin the 59@ 40% and get it up to 15"hg if you have the avail. HP and vacuum relief set stiff enough.

In fact all this talk about this blower can make this cfm and that lift etc...really has to be balanced with the bottom line resistance equal heat, and heat determins everything when it comes to running blowers hard.

The 56 blower would have been a good choice for a single wand Vortex guy, Big gear, narrow lobe high rpm rating so it could be spun at 70% and be quiet and still deliver high cfm and high lift for single wand, especially with a 2.5 set up, and yet it "could" be spun up to dual wand with adeqequate performance if both operators were using 2.5.
and ... it requires less BHP to drive it, cost less etc...

 

[gasaxe]

"The 59 is gonna have to spin close to max rpm in order to maintain 15"hg regardless of the tool(s) you are using."

Not exactly true, you can spin the 59@ 40% and get it up to 15"hg if you have the avail. HP and vacuum relief set stiff enough.

In fact all this talk about this blower can make this cfm and that lift etc...really has to be balanced with the bottom line resistance equal heat, and heat determins everything when it comes to running blowers hard.

The 56 blower would have been a good choice for a single wand Vortex guy, Big gear, narrow lobe high rpm rating so it could be spun at 70% and be quiet and still deliver high cfm and high lift for single wand, especially with a 2.5 set up, and yet it "could" be spun up to dual wand with adeqequate performance if both operators were using 2.5.
and ... it requires less BHP to drive it, cost less etc...

2850rpm x 40% = 1140rpm

770cfm x 40% = 280 cfm


So your saying at 1100 rpm with 280 cfm of air you can hold 15" of lift with one wand AND keep the pump cool???

Some of you "experts" are starting to concern me....lol

 

[Greenie]

alrighty...you nailed me, my example was a bit extreme, nobody is gonna run it at 40% for carpet, but my dramatic point is even if you Did, all that matters is output temp, if you or anyone else here can run a 59 at 40%, and tighten the releif valve, let me know what the ACTUAL output temp is of the discharged air, cause unless it's off teh chart like 280 deg. you haven't got much to worry about, THAT is what I want the newbs to understand, as long as the blower is pulling enough cool air in through the wand and/or releif to moderate internal air temp, there really is no "issue" that makes a particular blower better or worse for carpet cleaning, they are all just vacuum pumps.

That T-406 and T-408 are awesome blowers for robust single wand machines, something that would have been called a dual wand back in the day...lol

 

[gasaxe]

alrighty...you nailed me, my example was a bit extreme, nobody is gonna run it at 40% for carpet, but my dramatic point is even if you Did, all that matters is output temp, if you or anyone else here can run a 59 at 40%, and tighten the releif valve, let me know what the ACTUAL output temp is of the discharged air, cause unless it's off teh chart like 280 deg. you haven't got much to worry about, THAT is what I want the newbs to understand, as long as the blower is pulling enough cool air in through the wand and/or releif to moderate internal air temp, there really is no "issue" that makes a particular blower better or worse for carpet cleaning, they are all just vacuum pumps.

That T-406 and T-408 are awesome blowers for robust single wand machines, something that would have been called a dual wand back in the day...lol

that is also my concern.. Ive had temp probes in the exhaust side of my pumps and seen what kind of egts they have. 68 roots, 59 roots even the md on my v, it will suprise you how hot these things get when you run them at the lift settings that the manufacturer suggest as a max.

Another point is that when running a pump like that grease in the bearings and oil in the back gearcase becomes more important to be maintained on a more frequent basis.

 

[gasaxe]

alrighty...you nailed me, my example was a bit extreme, nobody is gonna run it at 40% for carpet, but my dramatic point is even if you Did, all that matters is output temp, if you or anyone else here can run a 59 at 40%, and tighten the releif valve, let me know what the ACTUAL output temp is of the discharged air, cause unless it's off teh chart like 280 deg. you haven't got much to worry about, THAT is what I want the newbs to understand, as long as the blower is pulling enough cool air in through the wand and/or releif to moderate internal air temp, there really is no "issue" that makes a particular blower better or worse for carpet cleaning, they are all just vacuum pumps.

That T-406 and T-408 are awesome blowers for robust single wand machines, something that would have been called a dual wand back in the day...lol

i dont think you could get a 59 to pull 15 in carpet cleaning conditions with a completely sealed off relief. Maybe if you cap off the vac inlet it might. I making a phone call i have some results soon....

 

[FB7777]

some of you arm chair QBs are killing me


yea Butler "blew it" Foster, massive blower cleaners is a niche market. Who did all the potential sales go to that Butler lost?

I'm not in the market for a big truck, but if I were Butler would be my first choice, not AT or V. Why pay $15-20 grand more for a bigger blower? Especially if you are a single wand company 99% of the time?


Butler's position in any truckmount they build is to attempt to design a solid reliable platform

don't forget , they joined this ego truck game in the late innings, upon their "Isuzu Milk Truck" debut, prices of diesel soared and then shortly after the economy tanked.

 

[gasaxe]

some of you arm chair QBs are killing me


yea Butler "blew it" Foster, massive blower cleaners is a niche market. Who did all the potential sales go to that Butler lost?

I'm not in the market for a big truck, but if I were Butler would be my first choice, not AT or V. Why pay $15-20 grand more for a bigger blower? Especially if you are a single wand company 99% of the time?


Butler's position in any truckmount they build is to attempt to design a solid reliable platform

don't forget , they joined this ego truck game in the late innings, upon their "Isuzu Milk Truck" debut, prices of diesel soared and then shortly after the economy tanked.

do you understand how an electric clutch works???

 

[Chris A]

Why would a 47 butler in a box be any different than in a van?

 

[Bob Foster]

Butler sells a fine unit in a van and they really deserve the good reputation they have.

However, when looking at the potential they could have for the restoration and new generation cleaning market, they have yet to exploit it to the degree of their manufacturing potential. Their box vans appear to only by the stuff from a cargo van put in a box truck. That's not how to optimize new generation cleaning or restoration in a box van.