Interview with James Bailey Smith 4-11-07

[JamesBaileySmith]

I will post this again - I did it wrong earlier, I think:

If you were appointed as the President of IICRC and given the authority to pretty much do whatever you wanted to, how would you improve IICRC so that it would serve and represent carpet cleaners more effectively?

Please don't hold back!

MIKE

Mike
The arrogance of many in the IICRC is just too much. What is more important than reorganization is humility, strength and honest to reign at the top. In addition there is too much power and control at the top. The power needs to be spread out. It is really sad how instructors treat one another.

 

[JamesBaileySmith]

HEY JIM

do you get christmas cards from Jeff Bishop?

Jeff and mine relation has it ups and down; however, there are more downs than ups. We have different ways of thinking on many subjects. Jeff Bishop has the final word in the IICRC on technical subjects.

 

[JamesBaileySmith]

Given some of the comments I've read so far regarding PH and stain resist, can we be sure that when a chem manufacture claims "stain resist approved" that it indeed does NOT damage a carpets stain resist properties?

thanks

..L.T.A.

I am not sure what the mills are doing at this moment to assure approved detergents are not removing stain resist. The original rules of using products of a pH 10.0 and under was deeply flawed. A product pH rule does not take into account the total alkalinity or the reactivity of the product. The reactivity is the part of chemistry is where the problems are. I hope this part of the SOA is doing what it is suppose to.
In my opinion, there is no need for an alkalinity limit on olefin and polyester. Yet, fiber producers supposedly recommend one.

 

[JamesBaileySmith]

Jim I've come across a few homes with wall to wall wool berber. Any special considerations for this? Also is it a good idea to recommend it to customers? Customers ALWAYS ask what carpet I recommend, so I ask, what carpet do you recommend?
Thanks,Rob.

The primary consideration on wool is chemistry. Either use a Woolsafe accredited products or keep the pH under 5.5 as measured directly from the faceyarn. Do not forget to check the backing. Tufted jutes can brownout; wovens with cellulosics can shrink. For low moisture cleaning, be mindful of possible pile distortions; fuzzing is a possibility that you will want to avoid. For HWE or full saturation methods, be careful not to over wet especially for wovens that do not have synthetic backings.

 

[JamesBaileySmith]

Hi Jim!

Thanks for being here. How much would we have to pay you to give us a rundown on the REAL story of Ph and how it applies to cleaning. I know it has been way over-simplified, can you give us a quick education on this topic?

Thanks and take care,
Lisa

There is so much about pH that does not need to be taught. The parts we have come to know are like the understanding of the blind men in the Indian parable of the description of the elephant. One thought it was a wall; another, a spear; one other, a snake; still another, a tree; and then one more a fan; and finally the last, a rope.
We have study powers of ten and how far we are from seven. When most of us say pH, we are really thinking about reactivity. The real reason a dye bleeds or a fiber deteriorate is reactivity; its molecules get rearranged. The pH is weak on suggesting a reaction; total alkalinity is better. Total alkalinity is realized when we take the pH reading directly from the fiber.
Therefore to serve the needs of a typical cleaner, the parts of chemistry that I would recommend knowing are how to take a reading directly from the fiber and how to refer it to a chart. You can find the chart at http://www.carpetinspector.com/pH%20Readings.htm. I have given copy right permission to the other IICRC instructors to use the chart at no charge. I do not even mind if I do not get the credit.

 

[Bob Foster]

The link above has a dot at the end of the link that is causing the dead link. Try this one.

http://www.carpetinspector.com/pH%20Readings.htm

 

[JamesBaileySmith]

Jim, could you explain how carpet protectors "take" or do not take to a fiber better at some pH levels?

And as a second question:

Does a carpet left in a slightly alkaline state resoil any more than a carpet left in a slightly acidic state?

Greenie
The carpet protectors work best with no residue on the fiber. A pH reading close to seven would be a good indication that we are there.
Most alkaline residues would not attract soil in and of themselves. Their presence could be indicative of sticky surfactants which would make the carpet feel slippery while wet. Sticky surfactants are more problematic for resoling than swings in pH. Potassium silicate was an alkaline we used to in the old days to prevent soiling.
Organic acids can be sticky; thus the belief that acid residue is a sign of no sticky residue is not true all the time. Organic acids are a common find in Acid Rinses; the kind of products that many folks think will remove sticky residues. There is no problem with most sticky residues until they pass a certain point. We measure sticky residue in a test called EXTRACTABLE MATTER. The results are given in percentages. There is no problem with percentages at 0.5 and under. Most sticky substances are not a problem until they reach 0.8%. Percentages over 2% are considered unacceptable by the GSA.

 

[JamesBaileySmith]

What would be your first choice in a single wand truck mount?

What type of van or truck would you use?

What other cleaning tools would you put in your personal vehicle if you were out cleaning 5 days a week?

Mike
I got a little more time to respond. My start in 1975 was with Steamex machines; 28 psi, 113â€ÂÂ

 

[JamesBaileySmith]

How valuable to the average cleaner is the Wools of New Zealand certification?

In particular, the value in terms of contrasting everyday useful knowledge to other certification agencies such as the IICRC and SCRT.

Bob
There is no Wools of New Zealand certification; there is a Woolsafe course with certification and it is one day with a 30 question essay exam that you can take home and use open book. The material covers stuff about wool not found in the IICRC courses. The problem is there is so little wool to clean, but if you do clean wool, I think you will agree the course is worth the money and time.

 

[JamesBaileySmith]

Jim,
Can you elaborate more on the testing soils. I have often wondered about that. Of course soil varies by region. Also there are many factors I am not convinced were addressed, such as food spills, compacted soils, petroleum oils, organic oils (food grade).

From what I can see, it appears that a synthetic soil was uniformly applied to a carpet sample, then testing was conducted.

Maybe I need to clean more carpets, but in the one I have cleaned, I have not come across any with a synthetic soil.

I have also never found one that was uniformly soiled.

Craig
I am not sure if you are referring to the SOA soil or not.
Proctor and Gamble has done a study to determine what soil is. These results are consistent throughout the world. Here are the results.
1. Moisture 2 TO 4%
2. Silica, Silicates (Sand), Clay, Quartz, Felspar 30 TO 40%
3. Oxides, Carbonates, Phosphates 6 TO 24%
4. Carbon 0 TO 3%
5. Animal Hair 10 TO 12%
6. Cellulosic Materials 10 TO 12%
7. Resins, Gums 6 TO 10%
8. Fats, Oils, Tars 3 TO 8%
9. Miscellaneous, Unknown 1 TO 3%
Resins, gums, fats, oil, and tars are the glue that holds everything left behind after vacuuming. Their small percentage makes up 90% of the cleaning challenge. Our professional cleaning systems with detergents are designed to remove this kind of soil.
Making a test soil without an oily component reminds me of the story on how to identify an aggie at a cock fight.

He brings a duck!

How would you know if the mafia were at the fight?


THE DUCK WINS!


Not having an oily component in the test soil is not a glitch in the program; it is not an oversight. It indicates that something more serious is wrong. These guys do not understand the basics of carpet cleaning. I do not mean this as a reflection of the CRI, because everything else that has come from them has been pretty good. I do not believe the regular technical staff of the CRI is in charge of this project; CR Mitchell is.

 

[JamesBaileySmith]

Hi Jim, Pucker up buddy,



Just kidding..

Helen said to say Hi also, She wishes she could hear you speak instead of looking at type. (she still likes your southern drawl (voice)) I keep tellen her I'm From the South (Southern Alaska) and she keeps sayen Wrong one!! Well OK then My South is bigger than your south!!!

I know you do alot with cameras, and are a lot more knoweledgable than I on this subject. Is there a simple way to have all these so called tests by CRI and others photo documented and be able to see the results before during and after??? Also could encapsulation be tested and results also shown? Or does every thing have to so high tec and cost prohibitive??

John
I just noticed you live in the city where my grandfather is buried. Wow.

Photographs would be good, but you got to remember, the real problem is with the testing soil. With no oily component, it is easy to understand how the Rug Doctor got their goal rating. There are other testing methods out there.

Paul Bakker and Eric Brown of Woolsafe would be my pick for a more credible testing group. These guys have advance degrees in textile chemistry. Dr. Eric Brown has cleaned carpet. To my knowledge, no one has ever questioned there credibility or their work. Their fees are reasonable.

 

[JamesBaileySmith]

"There are three things the mills have cut back on.
1. Yarns do not get the same heat set they did back in the 70s.
2. The amount of latex in the adhesive has gone down.
3. The dye systems are not of the same quality. "

Why don't they NOT get the same heat set?

#2 and #3 are self explanatory...always cheaper...never better.

There are three methods to heat set:
1. Autoclave: This method is the best. It is expensive and is generally done on high end carpets.
2. Superba: This method is not bad and is often done on yarns with a high twist. It is less expensive than autoclave.
3. Suessen: This method is economical. Many low end carpets are heat set with this method.
The mill, installers and cleaners share something in common; prices have not kept up with inflation. It takes a huge amount of money to make carpet right. This lack of heat setting is one of the biggest problems we have in doing low moisture.
The field test for cleaners is to first untwist a yarn to the point of seeing plies totally separate from one another and then release it. If the yarn goes back to its original shape after two tests, then it is a likely candidate for agitation provided the pile height is under ¾ of an inch and the density is medium grade or better.

 

[JamesBaileySmith]

In a perfect world what would the IICRC look like today?

Mike
There is no perfection on this side of the grave. We will live anger and disappointment if we believe there is.
However, there comes a time with things get so screwed up that we common folks need to stand up and make things better. I believe most of the folks in the IICRC are good people; however, they are not in charge. We must look at the IICRC as one should look at government; a necessary evil. There should be a balance of power. Right now, nearly all the power is in the hands of a few.

 

[JamesBaileySmith]

Do you think that the consumers exodus from carpeting and lack of trust on the part of the carpet-buying public is due to "big box" retailers undercutting prices and profits, squeezing out the small, well-educated retailer for a minimum wage worker?
Do you think if a consumer knew a carpet that cost 3X's more would last 20 X's longer and retain it's attractive appearance, they might make different choices? Or do you think the mills have a responsibility to the public to quit dealing in numbers only and STOP selling these inferior fibers?

frankly I'm puzzled why PET and cut pile olefins were ever produced for sale, when, if they were real world tested, most would have likely decided they were a failed experiment.

Take care,
Lisa[/quote
Lisa
For the most part, mills just follow market trends. PET and olefin have styling limitations, but there is a place from them in the market. I would keep my eye on 3GT, Smartstrand from Mohawk.
Wool would be my pick for a face fiber. I have always wondered why it is so expensive here in the United States; it is cheap everywhere else. It is likely the most profitable item Dalton sells and accounts for the least amount of profit.
]

 

[JamesBaileySmith]

Hi Jim:

I'm happy that I did get this evening off, so as to read your posts.

I too am a full-time inspector. A while ago Jim taught a class in a Dalton mill about encapsulation for excessive yarn loom oil. At the same time I was involved in an inspection that was having a problem with this. I saw the carpet HWE’d twice and continued to rapid re-soil. Then the mill sent a team to encapsulate that same carpet. I was amazed.

Jim: Now that the process has been done for a couple years do you recommend it as the only cure for this problem? Over a long term do you know if the consumers have ever called back a 2nd complaint after being encapsulated?

Thx,
Dale

Encapsulation is the future and it is hard to say where we are today, except that we are ahead of where we were.
Encapsulation works without respect to solubility and polarity. Surfactants are highly motivated by these forces. Ultimately, encapsulation will be the champion of nearly all of cleaning needs. It is what surfactants were to soap many years ago, except it is a much higher leap into better technology.

 

[Bob Foster]

That, my friend, is a very profound statement that I hope you will expand on. Make a few assumptions and stare into the future and share with us your visions on encapsulation.

 

[JamesBaileySmith]

A couple years ago, a Prochem rep stressed the importance of using clean dedicated jugs for protectant to avoid contamination.

He said that just a few drops of All Fiber Rinse in a RTU gal of protectant would greatly diminish the protectants efficacy.

I asked then, why has it been suggested to use and acid rinse or acid mist before applying protectants ?
If a few drops of acid rinse in a RTU gal causes problems, why doesn't the acid mist on the carpet have a similar effect?

He gave an answer that didn't seem to square with his original statement of just a few drops in a gal contaminates

Are you familiar with the effects of All Fiber Rinse and protectants?

Thanks

..L.T.A.

I looked at the MSDS for ALL FIBER RINSE to refresh my memory about the product and it is does not say as much as it use to. Almost anything that holds to the fiber could interfere with a fluorochemical’s bonding to the filament. The problem could be with their products emulsion.
There is a good field test for evaluating fluorochemical that involves baby oil. Fluorochemicals work by lowering the surface tension of the fiber (i.e. makes it smoother.) This makes the fiber both lipophobic and hydrophobic, (oil & water hating), thus repelling soil too. If this kind of product is working right, then it should repel oil. Gently placing baby oil on the fibers to see if it beads is the simplest test that can be done to evaluate this kind of protection.

 

[JamesBaileySmith]

Hi Greenie:

When it comes to yarn loom oil, I always was told by the mill to have the cleaner (I'm not a cleaner) to use no chemical. Just alot of heat, and flush and vacuum as much as possible. After-all the oil itself is a surfactant? Is that correct Jim?

Thx,
Dale

It depends upon a couple of factors. The coolants vary. Some could be polypropylene glycol like the stuff we used for car radiator coolants or laurel sulfonate or anything that would lubricate.
The other issue is how much stuff is in the carpet. The amount is a percentage of the material verses the weight of the faceyarn. From 0.8 to 2.0% would carry most end-users outside their comfort zone. Over two percent is a defect.
I would recommend Prochem’s Olefin Prespray or one of the encapsulants. I am curious to know if the acrylic encapsulants work best or one of the ones with enduring residues or dehydrates.

 

[JamesBaileySmith]

Ok, but what about when the soil is bound by oils?

Using theory, and the 3 laws of thermal dynamics I can prove on paper that using high heat and heating the fine soil particles will cause them to release and the carpet could be cleaned by entropy. That does not mean ts going to happen that way.

Has any actual independent testing that you know of been conducted that would confirm those claims.

Also, after I posted my previous I went back and edited it with another question.

I am trying to clear some things up for everyone. As you know, there is a lot of concern with the manner in which a particular company conducts themselves.

Craig
I think the better approach of trying to understand this is to limit the scope to polarities. If oil is the glue that holds non-oily soils to the fiber and I am trying to remove both soils with water and water and oil do not mix, then how will my aqueous solution accomplish this? The alkalinity of my detergent will chemical react with the acidity of the soil and form new salts; salts are normally water soluble, but there is not much in soil that is water soluble. A co-solvent like butyl will help within limited ranges, but I can not use dry solvent at a high enough concentration due to the construction of the carpet. The answer is found in the surfactants which will emulsify oils and suspend some of the rest. The bottom line is given the parameters of carpet and cleaning methods, an oily soil is essential in a testing protocol for having any real world meaning. If we take the oil out, then one is likely to get weird results, such as a consumer rental machine looking as good as Vortex. I find it difficult to hold a conversation with someone who believes that this kind of thing should have any merit of reality. Adolf Hitler was reported as saying, folks will not buy into little lie, but they might buy into big ones. If you want to deceive someone, then make the first statement a gigantic lie. This will change their hold understanding of truth itself. That is what we have here with this test oil.

 

[JamesBaileySmith]

"I have been assured this will never happen."

There is NOBODY in the IICRC that assure anyone of anything, it's dynamic and changing, it has to be.
Your position in the IICRC is worth no more than the cost to replace you, and people are cheap.

out with the old.

There is a group of people that would appear to always get their way. It is not really allowed that one even question them.

 

[JamesBaileySmith]

Describe the perfect carpet and pad that you would encourage a customer that is buying new carpet to look for in the living room.

Fiber
construction
Twist count
density
pile height
weight
pad - type, thickness and weight

in round figures, if you can.

70 ounce cationic solution dyed nylon, Saxony, autoclave heat set, 5,000 ounce density, over 8 pound rebond. Baked in fluorochemical.