Interview with Werner Braun PART TWO 3-14 -07

[Jim Pemberton]

Welcome everyone.

I'd like to first thank Werner Braun for being gracious and granting us a second interview after the technical difficulties that were encountered during our last attempt on February 20th.

Welcome back Werner. Would you like to give us any updates on where the SOA stands before our questions begin?

 

[Werner Braun]

Welcome everyone.

I'd like to first thank Werner Braun for being gracious and granting us a second interview after the technical difficulties that were encountered during our last attempt on February 20th.

Welcome back Werner. Would you like to give us any updates on where the SOA stands before our questions begin?

Dear Jim, thanks for having me back. The biggest thing we've been working on since we last visited is how to deal appropriately with existing truck mount units that are in the field. I'm happy to report that we're very close to having a program defined. In fact, we will be vetting this new program with a broader stakeholder group in the very near future. W

 

[Mike Brummett]

Werner,
Thanks for returning and being available to answer our questions.

Being a VERY small company, I currently own, only own ONE machine and my manufacturer is not going to submit it for CRI-SOA testing. (Because, although it is only one year old, they have upgraded the new models with different components) Furthermore the $2500 fee is not within my reach financially, Even if I could pay to get it tested, I certainly can't afford to take a week off to make the 1600 mile round-trip to have it tested.
That means that, TODAY, I am effectively locked out of being able to clean carpets covered under SOA Warranties, while the Chem-Dry, Stanley Steemer and Sears franchises in my area ARE able to clean them, TODAY.
I have been as big an advocate of this program as you will find, but I am starting to get a little peeved about having to play second fiddle to the big national franchises.
All sorts of rhetoric has been tossed around about this grandfathering business and I keep hearing "Just-wait-a-little-bit-longer-and-it-will-all-be-fixed", from CRI and others.

WHEN will this come to fruition?

MIKE

 

[Jim Pemberton]

Is this program for the units that are no longer represented by an existing manufacturer, or for all untested models?

 

[Werner Braun]

Werner,
Thanks for returning and being available to answer our questions.

Being a VERY small company, I currently own, only own ONE machine and my manufacturer is not going to submit it for CRI-SOA testing. (Because, although it is only one year old, they have upgraded the new models with different components) Furthermore the $2500 fee is not within my reach financially, Even if I could pay to get it tested, I certainly can't afford to take a week off to make the 1600 mile round-trip to have it tested.
That means that, TODAY, I am effectively locked out of being able to clean carpets covered under SOA Warranties, while the Chem-Dry, Stanley Steemer and Sears franchises in my area ARE able to clean them, TODAY.
I have been as big an advocate of this program as you will find, but I am starting to get a little peeved about having to play second fiddle to the big national franchises.
All sorts of rhetoric has been tossed around about this grandfathering business and I keep hearing "Just-wait-a-little-bit-longer-and-it-will-all-be-fixed", from CRI and others.

WHEN will this come to fruition?

MIKE

Mike, I understand and appreciate your situation. Let me assure you that the new program for existing units will address your situation in a fair and equitable fashion. In addition, it is our desire to structure the cost of this program in a way that will not be punitive to you or others in a similar situation. W

 

[truckmount girl]

Mr. Braun,

Thank you for taking the time to open a dialog with us and allow us to voice our concerns. The fact that you are willing to listen and communicate will go far to coming to points of common ground and quickly pinpointing areas of this program which need more work.

How much is the fee for having the Space Foundation Seal on a product?

Who specifically is on the TIC, C&M sub-committee & the C&M issues management teams you referred to above?

What will happen if an approved piece of equipment is modified after sale? Say I have a X Brand truckmount which was approved with the X Brand wand, but choose to run it with an RX20 or a different wand?

What about such performance enhancing products as Kunkle/Bayco valves, glides, larger diameter vacuum hoses, etc?

If a machine is tested with a single wand, but is used in the common dual wand configuration, how does that effect the approval status?

How do you assure that a given piece of equipment submitted for testing is truly representative of what is being sold under that name? If an unscrupulous manufacturer wanted to dupe the system they could submit a modified version for testing, but be actually selling something which does not perform as well. This could be done very easily with portable extractors, as a higher performance motor could be installed in literally minutes.

The same idea applies to chemicals. Are you relying upon the honesty of the manufacturer, or are there safeguards in place?

To avoid the possibility of such deception, has CRI considered testing the same equipment in the field, without the manufacturers knowledge? Who is responsible for monitoring such issues long term?

My guess is that if you rented a Rug Doctor from your local supermarket, brought it in and had it tested, you would find significantly different results from unit to unit. how do you intend to address the issues of maintenance and wear? Will someone be conducting random testing to assure proper maintenance?

Will there be other approved testing facilities? If an individual wishes to have their equipment/system tested, but the travel is geographically prohibitive, will they be able to take it to a more local facility?

It seems testing and approval are far more burdensome for small firms and manufacturers in many ways:
Financially (as expressed by a percentage of total annual income)
Time-wise (as expressed by a percentage of man-hours)
Geographically (as expressed by a percentage of miles required to travel)
Will this issue be addressed?

What will happen to the SOA program if the majority of manufacturers of quality cleaning equipment choose not to have their equipment tested?

Who will police disputes arising from this program?

Are you personally concerned that this program may not hold up in court, if a dispute arises, or that it may violate anti-trust laws? Have these possibilities been thoroughly examined by an attorney?

Thanks and take care,
Lisa

 

[Mikey P]

Are you saying that if the manufacturer will not pay to have the unit approved then it's up to the owner of the truck mount?


Will the truckmount (or Portable) need to brought to CRI HQ in order to get it tested?

 

[Werner Braun]

Is this program for the units that are no longer represented by an existing manufacturer, or for all untested models?

Jim, we will have several categories of truck mounts in the new program. The new program will deal with models that are still in production by manufacturers who are in the program, discontinued models from manufacturers that are in the program, identical models from manufacturers who are no longer in business, individual machines that are from manufacturers that gone out of business, and finally, machines from O.E.M.s that for whatever reason refuse to be part of the program. W

 

[Jim Pemberton]

A cleaner who has been in contact with your office has advised me that he has made an arrangement to bring in his equipment to be tested himself, and is spreading the cost with several other cleaners who have the same machine.

Where will these individuals' clients and referring carpet stores be able to find their listing on the CRI website? Since the testing cost is the same, will they get the same "public space" as the manufacturers who had their equipment tested and paid the same price?

 

[Jim1]

What is CRI intentions to assist ALL cleaners in approving existing equipment? This includes units which have been modified.

Was it CRI intent that this program by used by carpet manufactures to be a requirement for warrantee retention

Is it CRI's opinion that ALL equiptment NOT approved will damage carpets

Jim McDanel

 

[dmsclean]

Hello,
I operate my business in an area of the country called "the gold coast" Fairfield ,Connecticut. I have been in business for seventeen years and through all these years ..I have never been asked once if I was "certified" much less if the particular machine I was using was "certified". I provide services for some very prominent people- I go into many homes with values exceeding the million dollar mark- and wonder what advantages would there be to have a certified machine? Especially ,if a "rug doctor" is "certified" why would I want an association with a machine of that caliber?
Thank you ,
Bruce Hall

 

[Jim]

Werner,

How many carpets have you cleaned in "Real" world situations?


Jim

 

[Werner Braun]

Mr. Braun,

Thank you for taking the time to open a dialog with us and allow us to voice our concerns. The fact that you are willing to listen and communicate will go far to coming to points of common ground and quickly pinpointing areas of this program which need more work.

How much is the fee for having the Space Foundation Seal on a product?

Who specifically is on the TIC, C&M sub-committee & the C&M issues management teams you referred to above?

What will happen if an approved piece of equipment is modified after sale? Say I have a X Brand truckmount which was approved with the X Brand wand, but choose to run it with an RX20 or a different wand?

What about such performance enhancing products as Kunkle/Bayco valves, glides, larger diameter vacuum hoses, etc?

If a machine is tested with a single wand, but is used in the common dual wand configuration, how does that effect the approval status?

How do you assure that a given piece of equipment submitted for testing is truly representative of what is being sold under that name? If an unscrupulous manufacturer wanted to dupe the system they could submit a modified version for testing, but be actually selling something which does not perform as well. This could be done very easily with portable extractors, as a higher performance motor could be installed in literally minutes.

The same idea applies to chemicals. Are you relying upon the honesty of the manufacturer, or are there safeguards in place?

To avoid the possibility of such deception, has CRI considered testing the same equipment in the field, without the manufacturers knowledge? Who is responsible for monitoring such issues long term?

My guess is that if you rented a Rug Doctor from your local supermarket, brought it in and had it tested, you would find significantly different results from unit to unit. how do you intend to address the issues of maintenance and wear? Will someone be conducting random testing to assure proper maintenance?

Will there be other approved testing facilities? If an individual wishes to have their equipment/system tested, but the travel is geographically prohibitive, will they be able to take it to a more local facility?

It seems testing and approval are far more burdensome for small firms and manufacturers in many ways:
Financially (as expressed by a percentage of total annual income)
Time-wise (as expressed by a percentage of man-hours)
Geographically (as expressed by a percentage of miles required to travel)
Will this issue be addressed?

What will happen to the SOA program if the majority of manufacturers of quality cleaning equipment choose not to have their equipment tested?

Who will police disputes arising from this program?

Are you personally concerned that this program may not hold up in court, if a dispute arises, or that it may violate anti-trust laws? Have these possibilities been thoroughly examined by an attorney?

Thanks and take care,
Lisa

Lisa, let me take these one at a time:
The Space Foundation fee for the first machine is $2500. For each additional machine the cost is $1000. For both CRI members and non members. There is an annual renewal fee of $1000 per tested product.

The members of the groups that you refer to are all CRI members, but not necessarily just in the carpet business. There are also people from the cleaning community on all of these groups and some practicing cleaning professionals. The Cleaning & Maintenance Subcommittee and C&M IMT are both chaired by Carey Mitchell.

Your question on modifications is a very timely question. From the very beginning we have thought about the best way of addressing this issue. In other CRI programs we have built in various levels of periodic and random audits. It may be necessary to take similar steps in the SOA programs to insure credibility. W

 

[Mike Brummett]

Moderator:
Lisa's hoggin' all the good questions! I'm gonna TELL!

LOL

Sure hope Werner can type faster than I can!

MIKE

 

[Werner Braun]

Are you saying that if the manufacturer will not pay to have the unit approved then it's up to the owner of the truck mount?


Will the truckmount (or Portable) need to brought to CRI HQ in order to get it tested?

Mikey, I wish I could share the details, but trust me, we are working on those details and should have those available in the near future. There is a chance that not all portables will have to be brought to the lab to be tested. W

 

[dmsclean]

lol...What is wrong with that picture?

 

[cu]

sir. im sure you and the cri have the best at heart for the carpet cleaning ind . but i to am just a one man band and would NEVER want to be part of cri or iicrc until either or both did something of real value to rid this industry of the $5.95 a room guys . to get the custy on our side and to belive that this is a real profession and not just a lot of hack guys ripping them off. Why not take on a real problem first. then move on
as it stands now we are worse off because all i need is a rug doc and im in the club....
give me something to show you want to get rid of these people
and i,ll join your club. they hurt us more then the mills do

 

[Werner Braun]

A cleaner who has been in contact with your office has advised me that he has made an arrangement to bring in his equipment to be tested himself, and is spreading the cost with several other cleaners who have the same machine.

Where will these individuals' clients and referring carpet stores be able to find their listing on the CRI website? Since the testing cost is the same, will they get the same "public space" as the manufacturers who had their equipment tested and paid the same price?

Jim, although the new program for existing truck mounts has such a provision in the draft that is being circulated, it would be premature for me to comment further. Clearly this is a situation that we would like to remedy and feel that we will. W

 

[Jim1]

WAY TO GO LISA, we were thinking the same thing, We need to compare notes, we have a few Ideas of our own,

We just don't want them to see our cards yet./.......

Jim McDannel

 

[Guest]

Werner,


When was the last time you had your own carpets cleaned? What can you tell us about that, and how much did you study how the tech or company operated. How nice, soft, and clean are your own carpets?


Jimmy James
WG Cleaning

 

[Lonnie]

Why do you have a non cleaner chairing the CRI Cleaning Committee?

Why has not CRI tested Low Moisture systems?

Is it true that the current chair of the cleaning committee has written a document and taken a position that only HWE should be tested?

As a non profit do you think that the current set up is fair and equitable in its make up?

At the fact finding roll out at Georgia Tech all these issues that are currently being addressed were covered and just a few weeks later CRI rolled out SOA with no visable application of the concerns..why is that?

 

[Mike Brummett]

O.K., Terry, you've had your fun, now back to the legitimate questions:

Werner:

The current SOA testing has been on deep cleaning, or extraction systems.

Will CRI be testing some of the other viable cleaning methods, such as bonnet/pad cleaning and encapsulation cleaning? And if so, approximately when?

Also, will these methods, equipment chemicals, etc. be eligible for SOA ratings?

Thanks, MIKE

 

[dmsclean]

odin,
BRAVO

 

[Guest]

Let me get this right - the rug doctor is cri approved BUT a consumer cant use it UNLESS they are a certified firm by the IICRC - to do so would void their mill warrentee , right ??

We are doing this for the consumer right , so in doing so we are going to let the consumer know that any cleaning done with this machine UNLESS they are an IICRC certified firm will void their warrentee - am I correct ??

James

 

[dmsclean]

I can not believe that you people are all "crazed" about this. They have a "rug doctor" as an approved machine...case closed!!!!
Now go out and concentrate and build your business!

This really sickens me that people who put their heart and soul into this industry are going to worry about bs like this

 

[truckmount girl]

If a truckmount is tested with a single wand, but is used in the common dual wand configuration, how does that effect the approval status?

Take care,
Lisa

 

[Werner Braun]

What is CRI intentions to assist ALL cleaners in approving existing equipment? This includes units which have been modified.

Was it CRI intent that this program by used by carpet manufactures to be a requirement for warrantee retention

Is it CRI's opinion that ALL equiptment NOT approved will damage carpets

Jim McDanel

Jim, certainly as much as possible we would like to have a program that is inclusive rather than exclusive. As you might imagine, it may be impossibe to accommodate everyone although this is our desired outcome. With respect to modified units, the new program does identify minimum performance specs for truck mounts that were shared with us from members of your community. If these minimum performance specifications are deemed appropriate, this may be a way of dealing with modified units.

CRI created the Seal of Approval programs to test and recognize cleaning chemicals, extractors, and systems that work. The independent decisions by certain mills to tie their warranties to the CRI SOA programs came a year or two after the decision was made to initiate the SOA programs. As I've stated before, I'm gratified that the some mills have come to the independent conclusion that CRI's SOA programs are credible enough to be tied to their warranties. W

 

[Mikey P]

Can you tell us what machines have NOT passed your testing?

 

[Lonnie]

How much money has CRI taken in and how much does it project to obtain over the years from this project and what margine of profit does the program have?

 

[Dolly Llama]

"There is an annual renewal fee of $1000 per tested product."

Curious why that is?
Do the machines need to retest?

If not, then why the yearly extortion money from manufactures and private owners who have their machines certified "Oakie Doakie" with your org?

Is the goal to set standards of performance, or to create a money flow to your org?

..L.T.A.