Is a special upholstery pre-spray really necessary?

[ruff]

I've been going back and forth (more or less, the last 25 years or so ) whether specialized upholstery pre-spray are really necessary.

Or would a mild carpet pre-spray be just fine. Or, if one wants to avoid over wetting (carpet pre-sprays contain penetrating agents) a mild carpet detergent used as a pre-spray.

The theory is that the specialized upholstery pre-sprays are formulated to deal with soils typical to upholstery, do not cause over wetting and some are designed for delicate fabrics.

On non delicate fabrics, I've used both and they all seem to do a great job. I can't tell the difference. Most fabrics (not delicate ones) I pre-spray, scrub and do a deep rinse.

On the other hand I find Prochem's Fine Fabric pre-spray to be a very good product at a very reasonable price. I hate the smell (the Joe Domin stink/perfume legacy). It does a great job on most upholstered fabrics. However, at times when an extra oomph is necessary, I will use Red Line and or other products and they do a great job.

What's your experience?

 

[Louis]

If all you are doing is poly furniture than no. I keep a gallon of juice for nice furniture . Bio solve works awesome on microfiber. I just cleaned my couch and the dogs side of the came out so nice my wife banned my 50lb lap dog from the couch.

 

[Mikey P]

What's your experience?

Same as your's. PC fine Fabric, Redline and sometimes Releasit if I want suds but more punch than PCFF


on occasion we've had to nuke nasty synthetics with Flex.

That Magic Wand Neutral rinse powder did work excellent but was too hard on metals.

Looking forward to trying Flex Ice as a pre spray on delicate. I got a house worth next week. Pics to come.

 

[windycitysteam]

No, I never use anything special and still get great results...

 

[Art Kelley]

Like Mike said, the Magic Potion Neutral works awesome on furniture and it is an excellent carpet prespray. I don't run chemical through my machine (FWR) so there's no problemo with metal destruction. I still also use Chemeister's acid side Preaction on upholstery though it is only labeled for carpets, and have been doing so for decades with nary a hint of a problem.

 

[Desk Jockey]

Like you, it depends on the fabric but in general we won't use a hammer (carpet prespray) on upholstery. Its just not needed and can cause you far more grief than not...depending on the fabric you're cleaning.

If all you clean is standard care fabric its less likely to cause you an issue but when you deal with a lot of natural fibers or blends, you're rolling the dice.

Personally I suck at gambling so I play it safe. I prefer to pick the upholstery to match my home and not have to buy what I ruined.

 

[Jim Pemberton]

This is a question that I am often asked, and can never answer without some qualifying statements:

1. Are you an owner operator with a good knowledge of upholstery fibers and fabrics, and are willing to test?

2. Do you have a few trucks and a consistent level of training and reinforcement, and technicians who will conscientiously follow "the rules"?

If you can honestly say "yes" to those questions, there are times that a strong, alkaline carpet prespray can be used on durable, synthetic fiber upholstery, such as microfibers.

The problem with making that decision if you aren't truly committed to using such products only when you are completely certain that you have colorfast, synthetic fiber fabrics is that it opens the door to "expanding" the use of "nukes" to blended fiber fabrics and natural fibers. When you do that, bad things happen.

I've seen places where upholstery cleaning preconditioners outperform traffic lane cleaners, but for the most part an upholstery prespray that is strong enough to outperform a traffic lane cleaner is one that has a pH level and solvent content strong enough to cause color bleeding, fading, browning, etc.

I have also seen that in many cases traffic lane presprays do "wet out" natural fiber fabrics much more rapidly than do upholstery prespray products. In that case, you can get into an unenviable position of having your prespray soak through the fabric, then your "dry tool of choice" (Upholstery Pro, Drimaster, Shear Dry, Hydry, Hydrokinetic, etc) will NOT be able to rinse and neutralize the product as these products are designed NOT to wet out out the back of the fabric.

OK.... a long answer to a simple question, but because of the variables involved in upholstery in fibers, fabrics, and dyes, its just not an easy answer to give.

One more point (I'd make it a "PS", but I'd get the wrath of Marty if I did...)

Bill Weigand from RSA is here teaching a week long Odor/Fire/Trauma class. On Wednesday we were attempting to clean a severely smoke damaged synthetic fiber fabric chair.

First we tried Flex Powder. It worked "ok", but there was still a gray residue from the smoke on the fabric.

Then we tried Upholstery Prespray with Citrus Solv as a booster.

It cleaned "like new".

 

[ruff]

1. Are you an owner operator with a good knowledge of upholstery fibers and fabrics, and are willing to test?

Yes I am an owner operator with reasonable knowledge of fabrics.
No, I am not willing to test. Particularly not the burn test.

If I am doing the carpet as well (better as there's more time to get accurate test results), or less ideally before I start the set up- I'll test different solutions on the zipper side and check for adverse effects before I start.

Why not do the burn test?

- It is not really necessary.

1. Many fabrics today are a blend: 24% cotton 46% Polyester, 9 % Rayon 47% Martinium. You cut the fluff and just clean them like natural fabric.
   
2. Many upholstery pre-sprays (like PC Fine Fabric. Did I mention that I hate its perfume stink? It smells like cheap aftershave, teenager's angst, spincter 5?) combined with a good agitation and either a mild or slightly acidic rinse perform like champs. Therefore you do not compromise cleaning results yet reduce risk.

Yes, every once in a while a sofa needs that extra "boost". But a whole lot less then you'd imagine.

Then we tried Upholstery Prespray with Citrus Solv as a booster.
It cleaned "like new".

Jim, have you ever checked these pieces for long term performance after the cleaning?
Delimonine tends to bond with fiber like Olefin which is close to impossible to flush.

 

[Desk Jockey]

Many upholstery pre-sprays (like PC Fine Fabric. Did I mention that I hate its perfume stink?) combined with a good agitation and either a mild or slightly acidic rinse perform like champs. Therefore you do not comromise cleaning results yet reduce risk.

B105 Fine Fabric shampoo makes a nice neutral (6ph) upholstery prespray. It sprays on a little foamy but spreads easy with a horsehair brush, hand mitt or Sea sponge. It also rinses well especially with an acid rinse.

 

[ruff]

Richard, I was under the impression (Jim also mentioned it in one of his past posts) that fabric shampoos, actually do not rinse very well and are not designed to be rinsed.

I find that when spraying FF prespray and agitate with a mitt, it also gets a little foamy, yet it is designed to be flushed better.

Maybe Jim can chip in.

 

[Jim Pemberton]

Why not do the burn test?
- It is not really necessary.
Many fabrics today are a blend: 24% cotton 46% Polyester, 9 % Rayon 47% Martinium. You cut the fluff and just clean them like natural fabric.
Many upholstery pre-sprays (like PC Fine Fabric. Did I mention that I hate its perfume stink?) combined with a good agitation and either a mild or slightly acidic rinse perform like champs. Therefore you do not comromise cleaning results yet reduce risk.

The burn test that I recommend is only used to determine if a fabric is made from synthetic fibers, natural fibers, or blends of both. It takes seconds and does not require the sense of smell or careful observation of the flame or smoke.

I recommend it to be used if you are choosing to use aggressive alkaline/solvent blends in either upholstery prespray products or traffic lane cleaner, as the use of such products on natural fibers (or blends) can cause disasters. Your choice of products likely precludes the need for that determination. But if someone really wants to use traffic lane cleaner, they better do it.

That strong comment by me isn't based on any ivory tower status, but having spent 40 years talking to good cleaners who have had VERY bad things happen to them. I don't feel strongly because I have any ego in this, just a profound concern for cleaners who work too darn hard for too darn little to take risks.

Ofer, you aren't the type of person who this is a problem for, on that I will agree.

Jim, have you ever checked these pieces for performance after the cleaning?
Delimonine tends to bond with fiber like Olefin which is close to impossible to flush.

I use it in a 2% solution added to an alkaline prespray. At that level of dilution, I'm fairly confident that there won't residue problem remaining. Since my rental tenants/friends/family are often the source of my "genuinely dirty" test upholstery, I do track resoiling as I'm often testing protector side by side with treated and untreated cushions for comparison.

(Yes, my tenants/friends/family tend to have furniture that soils unevenly....the price they pay for free cleaning)

I've not seen a resoiling issue there. I have seen severe resoiling on olefin carpet where d-limonene solvent spotters were used, even after rinsing, so I do understand your concern.

 

[Jim Pemberton]

Richard, I was under the impression (Jim also mentioned it in one of his past posts) that fabric shampoos, actually do not rinse very well and are not designed to be rinsed.

I find that when spraying FF prespray and agitate with a mitt, it also gets a little foamy, yet it is designed to be flushed better.

Maybe Jim can chip in.

Most shampoo products don't rinse well. Just look at how much rinsing you have to do to an oriental rug that's shampooed if you rinse in a rug pit.

If I can get away with a "mist and agitate" application, I will. The use of the natural sponge is better if I'm trying to create a "shaving cream" consistency of foam so that I limit the wetting of the fabric. In those cases I'm still confident of the ability to rinse the product from the fabric because the foam is primarily on the surface of the fabric.

What I try to avoid is dipping a brush in a bucket of shampoo solution and "slinging suds" all over the place, then thinking I can rinse all that wet lather out with a dry tool and an acid rinse.

"Ain't goin' to happen"

I'm working with a manufacturer on a product that will do a great job of low moisture cleaning without rinsing. I'll let you know when that product is ready for testing. You'll learn about it here first.

 

[ruff]

That strong comment by me isn't based on any ivory tower status, but having spent 40 years talking to good cleaners who have had VERY bad things happen to them. I don't feel strongly because I have any ego in this, just a profound concern for cleaners who work too darn hard for too darn little to take risks.

Never thought you did Jim. You must be confusing me with someone else.
For me you're right there with Mother Teresa and the former saint- R. Chavez.

P.S. What is your favorite ivory tower?

 

[Jim Pemberton]

I didn't mean that to sound like I was nettled by your comments Ofer.

My reply was for those who might read our discussion (which you can tell I'm enjoying) and not know my background.

I just understand that when people sit in a classroom and get lectured on why they need to do things that are time consuming and inconvenient by people who don't live in their world, such advice is sometimes unpalatable.

 

[ruff]

 

[Jimmy L]

I've been using my gallon of judson prespray as a furniture cleaner. Has that citrus solve in it. Smells good.
Then I rinse it off. Put a small amount in a trigger spray and lightly mist on and scrub in.

 

[Larry Cobb]

As a formulator . . .

these are the qualities we design into an Upholstery Prespray.

1. Low final pH 8 or so to minimize browning (from self-neutralizing)

2. Builder that leaves a soft hand on the fabric

3. Solvent to take out body oils when used in concentrated prespray (not citrus)

4. Free rinsing

5. A product you can confidently hand to an average tech with no worry.

http://www.cobbcarpet.com/zen/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=5317

 

[Nate The Great]

As a formulator . . .

these are the qualities we design into an Upholstery Prespray.

1. Low final pH 8 or so to minimize browning (from self-neutralizing)

2. Builder that leaves a soft hand on the fabric

3. Solvent to take out body oils when used in concentrated prespray (not citrus)

4. Free rinsing

5. A product you can confidently hand to an average tech with no worry.

http://www.cobbcarpet.com/zen/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=5317

So you hand them a portable?!?

 

[jawhit]

Just wondering what people's go-to upholstery chemical usually is. I have Formula O, but haven't really kept up much with upholstery chemicals in quite a while.

 

[hogjowl]

I'd use Harvards upholstery prespray if I could get Saiger to send me a gallon.

Free...

 

[Lee Stockwell]

Ammonia.

 

[hogjowl]

I'll even take that.

If it's free.

 

[Mark Saiger]

I'd use Harvards upholstery prespray if I could get Saiger to send me a gallon.

Free...

On the way

 

[hogjowl]

See, Taco?
Not EVERYTHING is about you!

 

[Jim Pemberton]

There are two schools of thought on upholstery preconditioners:

1. A general purpose prespray that is safe for most natural and synthetic fibers. It's an easy way to do it, but in most cases the product won't be as effective as you need in an oily, stained synthetic fiber fabric, yet possibly risky to use on hypertensive rayon, silk, etc.

2. Two preconditioners: An alkaline one for synthetics, a neutral or acidic one for natural fibers and blends. If you can be confident you know which is which, you'll get the heavily soiled synthetics cleaner, and be safer when working on natural fibers that might brown or bleed.

 

[Desk Jockey]

See, Taco?
Not EVERYTHING is about you!

For SHAME. Back to your old ways I see.

Had you gone to Atlanta I was going to buy your dinner...every dinner...and a NEW TM. Yeah I waz going to buy you a new TM "if" you would have went.

 

[Desk Jockey]

There are two schools of thought on upholstery preconditioners:

1. A general purpose prespray that is safe for most natural and synthetic fibers. It's an easy way to do it, but in most cases the product won't be as effective as you need in an oily, stained synthetic fiber fabric, yet possibly risky to use on hypertensive rayon, silk, etc.

2. Two preconditioners: An alkaline one for synthetics, a neutral or acidic one for natural fibers and blends. If you can be confident you know which is which, you'll get the heavily soiled synthetics cleaner, and be safer when working on natural fibers that might brown or bleed.

That's pretty much our SOP. Of course we've had some of the best training in the industry. Thank you Jim!

 

[Cleanworks]

Come on guys, you gotta do a burn test first. Spray some oms on it and then light a match. If it burns, you don't have to worry about cleaning it.