Is TM HWE superior to VLM?

[orbitalclean]

I started with a porty and a rotovac. Loved the rotovac, but after going from a deskjob to carrying around a porty I was burning out after one or two 2nd floor jobs per day.

Started researching VLM months ago. IT LOOKED LIKE A GREAT METHOD! Bought a HOS machine and off I went. Now I'm getting tired of washing rags and so, so results... Plus you have to pre-vac AND post-vac and it is seeming to take longer than if I just had a good TM. Plus the main reason for the orbital is I thought it would just power thru tile and grout. It gets the tile clean but does almost NOTHING for the grout.. ugghh!

So now I am looking at a good TM. this learning curve is getting expensive!

 

[TimP]

There is a time and place for VLM in my opinion. If you're into residential I'd say a TM is the way to go. However if you're into commercial cheap is the key and that's the way to go (cimex with encap), with a porty you can probably take care of most situations where you need a TM unless you're doing restaurants. A TM has the best cleaning and flushing and soil removing ability especially if you mechanically pre scrub. I don't know much about the OP method and all that but it seems you can get decent results but still not what a TM is capable. But that's just my opinion, you need to find retailer that will allow you to demo or some cleaners in your area to run with and see for yourself and make the decision for yourself. Oh and don't run with a hack cleaner VLM done right will beat a hack doing HWE.

 

[Mikey P]

IMO (In My Opinion)and you don't have to do what I say and you don't have to agree with me or even like me to learn from this board, but if you want to call yourself a Professional Carpet Cleaner you need to have a few tools.

Most importantly a real truck mount. Preferably one with a 45 blower or larger and one that can sustain 200º or more at the machine. Fresh water tanks, electric reels and Automatic Pump Outs are all nice but in reality are just fluff. To use the truckmount most efficiently you'll want a low profile, high flow, multi jetted, glided wand with a 2" tube.

You'll need a 175 floor machine as well. With this you can shampoo and pre scrub carpets as well as clean up left over sealer on hard floors. A assortment of fiber pads, cotton pads and bonnets goes with out saying.

Start there and then as you grow you'll need a Cimex and or a OP machine. A Counter Rotating Brush gizmo can be a life saver as well.

Have a couple of upright vacuums on board, A wide one for commercial and one that can be used for edging or uph, a assortment of grooming devices, a good uph/stair tool and either a Multi Sprayer or a Hydro Force, preferably both. A cheap pump up won't hurt to have around. And a shit load of trigger sprayers.

A Turbo fan or Air Path is just about mandatory imo too.

Some booties and a case of free spotters to keep Steve Toburen off your back.


And finally, a low ph and a boostable alkaline ph prespray, a rinse of some sort that doesn't leave residues, some 30 vol peroxide, a degreaser, a encap shampoo, some spotters from Vac A Way, tile and stone chems, Some Judson brand deodorizers and a eco/green pre spray and rinse for the few that may ask and then you should be set.



And then when you have some money to blow or your kids just dont know what to get you for Christmas, then get a RotoVac or RX 20.

 

[CleanEvo]

I went through the same steps you are going through and am now getting a TM. You can do a good job with any method in most situations, although there are some carpet types that clean better with HWE and some better with VLM. You've got all the tools when you get your TM.

The biggest advantage of the TM is that you can knock off 3 - 4 residential jobs a day without too much trouble. Try doing that with a porty and you'll need a day off to recover! Do it with VLM and you'll be working into the evening and then you need to go home and wash pads!

A truck mount is the way to go if you're doing mostly residential. If your business is mostly commercial, don't waste your money.

Be careful, make sure your business will support the payment if you're financing. get it when you are starting to get more than 2 jobs per day...consistently. Remember, they're always out there and you can get one anytime.

 

[Jim Nazarian]

David,

VLM has its place & will deliver clean looking carpets, I use Padcaping in high rise condos but a TM is our primary method, I bet most of your jobs are going to require less then 125 feet hose runs & you don't have too many large apartment complexes so you can start with a smaller new TM & pimp it out a little & give your clients flushed carpets & reasonable dry times, (I haven't found VLM cleaning to be faster or drier then a my TM)

Carlos at Kleenrite in Van Nuys sells both the Boxxer 421 & El Diablo, go see him, these smaller machines along with a Greenhorn coupled with a knowledgeable cleaner will get you off to a good start, keep your HOS, its a good tool.

I am 10 minutes away from you, contact me if you need anything.

 

[Numero Uno]

Yes...

this learning curve is getting expensive! That has been the killer of alot of cleaners...

Overpriced machinery...

Poorly thought stuff...

An buy more and more,instead of making it with what I got for now...

My buddy just called me complaining of spending over 3grand in repairs...

His profit marging for this year got whacked...

He is a new start up...

 

[Kevin B]

IMO (In My Opinion)and you don't have to do what I say and you don't have to agree with me or even like me to learn from this board, but if you want to call yourself a Professional Carpet Cleaner you need to have a few tools.

Most importantly a real truck mount. Preferably one with a 45 blower or larger and one that can sustain 200º or more at the machine. Fresh water tanks, electric reels and Automatic Pump Outs are all nice but in reality are just fluff. To use the truckmount most efficiently you'll want a low profile, high flow, multi jetted, glided wand with a 2" tube.

You'll need a 175 floor machine as well. With this you can shampoo and pre scrub carpets as well as clean up left over sealer on hard floors. A assortment of fiber pads, cotton pads and bonnets goes with out saying.

Start there and then as you grow you'll need a Cimex and or a OP machine. A Counter Rotating Brush gizmo can be a life saver as well.

Have a couple of upright vacuums on board, A wide one for commercial and one that can be used for edging or uph, a assortment of grooming devices, a good uph/stair tool and either a Multi Sprayer or a Hydro Force, preferably both. A cheap pump up won't hurt to have around. And a shit load of trigger sprayers.

A Turbo fan or Air Path is just about mandatory imo too.

Some booties and a case of free spotters to keep Steve Toburen off you back.


And finally, a low ph and a boostable alkaline ph prespray, a rinse of some sort that doesn't leave residues, some 30 vol peroxide, a degreaser, a encap shampoo, some spotters from Vac A Way, tile and stone chems, Some Judson brand deodorizers and a eco/green pre spray and rinse for the few that may ask and then you should be set.



And then when you have some money to blow or your kids just dont know what to get you for Christmas, then get a RotoVac or RX 20.

Jeez Mike, I think that was the best post you've ever made.

 

[Rex Tyus]

Jeez Mike, I think that was the best post you've ever made.

Nope! His pictorial aided post on ICS with Bush and the Nazi flag as the back drop is still my all time favorite. 8)

 

[John G]

IT LOOKED LIKE A GREAT METHOD! Bought a HOS machine and off I went. Now I'm getting tired of washing rags and so, so results... Plus you have to pre-vac AND post-vac and it is seeming to take longer than if I just had a good TM. Plus the main reason for the orbital is I thought it would just power thru tile and grout. It gets the tile clean but does almost NOTHING for the grout.. ugghh!

First thing would be WHY are you getting so so results. I being 100% VLm also get tired of hearing about SO SO results, but normally when the process is explained the reasoning behind so so results is that most DON'T use a method that is tried and true, no, they use a combination of things and then complain of so so results.

We don't sell a machine, and for those who just buy a machine and then have problems we almost always see they were using OUR machine, but not our method be any means.

Our VLM method is three pronged, product, machine and pads, and how to use them in any given situation.

For example if you are having a hard time cleaning GROUT, then there is definitely something wrong, grout cleaning is a bonus of VLM, it is outstanding, but done wrong it is mediocre at best.

Buying a TM and NOT using it right will give you similar results.

 

[Rex Tyus]

First thing would be WHY are you getting so so results. I being 100% VLm also get tired of hearing about SO SO results, but normally when the process is explained the reasoning behind so so results is that most DON'T use a method that is tried and true, no, they use a combination of things and then complain of so so results.

Not to mention SOME people have the benefit of comparison.

 

[Jim Nazarian]

About a month ago I was HWE a large home out in Camarrilo, it was about 3000sqft of 2 year old carpets that were spotless to begin with & no pets, after cleaning 2 rooms a belt broke on my TM & I was over an hour away from my repair man, so there was no way I was going to be able to get the TM fixed & return that same day & finish the cleaning, so I got out my OP machine & padcaped (using Wham) the rest of the house, the carpets looked great & the custy even called to thank me, my conscience was eating at me so I went back out there a couple of days later & HWE the areas that I had OP'd even though visually it didn't need it, I still felt flushing the fibers provides the best "cleaning".

 

[hogjowl]

Well, you just said they were spottless to begin with, Jim. OP always does great on clean carpets.

Speaking of those who can compare, I am one. I love having OP (and other vlm tools) on board. When it works, it's a fine tool.

However, HWE is still the only tool I can't live without.

 

[orbitalclean]

Thats what I am going thru. I want to know I cleaned the best I could for my customer. I really care about doing a good job. But after testing a truck mount I am finding it is a mind game. I clean my carpets with vlm and my kid has allergies. After a good low moisture clean he is good to go and the carpets look really good, great actually. I don't know...

About a month ago I was HWE a large home out in Camarrilo, it was about 3000sqft of 2 year old carpets that were spotless to begin with & no pets, after cleaning 2 rooms a belt broke on my TM & I was over an hour away from my repair man, so there was no way I was going to be able to get the TM fixed & return that same day & finish the cleaning, so I got out my OP machine & padcaped (using Wham) the rest of the house, the carpets looked great & the custy even called to thank me, my conscience was eating at me so I went back out there a couple of days later & HWE the areas that I had OP'd even though visually it didn't need it, I still felt flushing the fibers provides the best "cleaning".

 

[orbitalclean]

Yes Im starting to agree. It just takes knowledge and product and in my case a manufacturer that sell brushes capable of getting down to the grout.

Their products are great. I can hand scrub a grout line quickly using their green product and the gout comes out looking new, I just cant get the machine brushes to reach down to the grout.

IT LOOKED LIKE A GREAT METHOD! Bought a HOS machine and off I went. Now I'm getting tired of washing rags and so, so results... Plus you have to pre-vac AND post-vac and it is seeming to take longer than if I just had a good TM. Plus the main reason for the orbital is I thought it would just power thru tile and grout. It gets the tile clean but does almost NOTHING for the grout.. ugghh!

First thing would be WHY are you getting so so results. I being 100% VLm also get tired of hearing about SO SO results, but normally when the process is explained the reasoning behind so so results is that most DON'T use a method that is tried and true, no, they use a combination of things and then complain of so so results.

We don't sell a machine, and for those who just buy a machine and then have problems we almost always see they were using OUR machine, but not our method be any means.

Our VLM method is three pronged, product, machine and pads, and how to use them in any given situation.

For example if you are having a hard time cleaning GROUT, then there is definitely something wrong, grout cleaning is a bonus of VLM, it is outstanding, but done wrong it is mediocre at best.

Buying a TM and NOT using it right will give you similar results.

 

[orbitalclean]

Yes I think that would deliver top notch cleaning right there...

IMO (In My Opinion)and you don't have to do what I say and you don't have to agree with me or even like me to learn from this board, but if you want to call yourself a Professional Carpet Cleaner you need to have a few tools.

Most importantly a real truck mount. Preferably one with a 45 blower or larger and one that can sustain 200º or more at the machine. Fresh water tanks, electric reels and Automatic Pump Outs are all nice but in reality are just fluff. To use the truckmount most efficiently you'll want a low profile, high flow, multi jetted, glided wand with a 2" tube.

You'll need a 175 floor machine as well. With this you can shampoo and pre scrub carpets as well as clean up left over sealer on hard floors. A assortment of fiber pads, cotton pads and bonnets goes with out saying.

Start there and then as you grow you'll need a Cimex and or a OP machine. A Counter Rotating Brush gizmo can be a life saver as well.

Have a couple of upright vacuums on board, A wide one for commercial and one that can be used for edging or uph, a assortment of grooming devices, a good uph/stair tool and either a Multi Sprayer or a Hydro Force, preferably both. A cheap pump up won't hurt to have around. And a shit load of trigger sprayers.

A Turbo fan or Air Path is just about mandatory imo too.

Some booties and a case of free spotters to keep Steve Toburen off your back.


And finally, a low ph and a boostable alkaline ph prespray, a rinse of some sort that doesn't leave residues, some 30 vol peroxide, a degreaser, a encap shampoo, some spotters from Vac A Way, tile and stone chems, Some Judson brand deodorizers and a eco/green pre spray and rinse for the few that may ask and then you should be set.



And then when you have some money to blow or your kids just dont know what to get you for Christmas, then get a RotoVac or RX 20.

 

[Fon Johnson]

Read this diatribe, read it again, then go to sleep. Read it again tomorrow with fresh eyes, and somewhere in the middle you will find the truth. Contrary to popular belief there are just average guys with equipment that would not impress Tim (the toolman) Taylor, who keep their customers completely happy.

 

[Guest]

So-so results with OP?

YOUR NOT DOING IT RIGHT! WARNING WARNING! OPERATOR ERROR!

Gee, you're the first person I've heard this from. Everyone else LOVES OP!

In fact, I've known at least couple hundred thousand former TM owners who changed over to OP, BUT VERY FEW THE OTHER WAY AROUND!

Are you thinking of using a TM on berber?

Then you're crazy as a mad hatter, cuz everyone (including danny) knows that HWE will RUIN BERBER!

:-)

Doctor Phil

 

[Brad_Smith]

Mikey p finally had a good post. Pay close attention to it.

Brad

 

[Greenie]

There is no way in hell that was Mikey.

There are lots of good second hand TMs out there, If you have a few more bucks to invest I know Steve Frasier is upgrading and selling his van and ThermalWave II for less than the price of a new van, but it's a like new unit with a #5 blower, you may want to look at something a little smaller.