Jeff Woods – Judson Installs Reengineered Heat-Exchange Unit

[Lee Stockwell]

Re: Jeff Woods – Judson Installs Reengineered Heat-Exchange

Graham Helicoils are pretty bulletproof, thousands of Butlers, Prochems, and other units use them with excellent result. They are more widely used in industry.

I view a propane heated TM mfg gutting a high performance HX unit they don't understand as being similar to an old mechanic taking "all that electronic stuff" off a car. Then replacing it with condensor and points.

....and feeling he "reengineered it" to be better.

Thanks,
Lee

 

[Leslie Judson Jones]

Re: Jeff Woods – Judson Installs Reengineered Heat-Exchange

Graham Helicoils are pretty bulletproof, thousands of Butlers, Prochems, and other units use them with excellent result. They are more widely used in industry.

I view a propane heated TM mfg gutting a high performance HX unit they don't understand as being similar to an old mechanic taking "all that electronic stuff" off a car. Then replacing it with condensor and points.

....and feeling he "reengineered it" to be better.

Thanks,
Lee

Lee, I see you disagree with what I’ve done here. How would you have taken care of Jeff Woods’ situation? What would your suggestion have been for Jeff?

 

[Lee Stockwell]

Re: Jeff Woods – Judson Installs Reengineered Heat-Exchange

If the Thermalwave had a widespread reputation for poor heat or technical problems I could see the need for "reengineering it". Likely it just needed a few "tweeks" by someone who understood it.

I think the owner's main problem was the long distance from his distributor and a lack of ability to troubleshoot it on his own, a double-whammy for him that I understand. He was better served by a simpler machine. Bane would be a good choice for some for that reason.

Your fix was perfect for him. However it's not fair to dismiss heat-exchanged machines as problematic, they aren't for most of us.

Thanks,
Lee

 

[Bill Bruders]

Re: Jeff Woods – Judson Installs Reengineered Heat-Exchange

Thanks Lee for contributing this prespective to the thread. I've been monitoring this for some time and debating commenting on what I view as one side of a story. Now Sapphire didn't produce this machine but I will say that the ThermalWave has been one of the best selling most reliable units on the market regardless of the heat source.

So now that I've opened up the can of worms here are my thoughts
1. I don't understand why Jeff needed to drive 200 miles north of Chicago when JonDon is located there and has one of the biggest and best trained service departments in the country. They have serviced many Blueline machines and are extremely competent.
2. I still don't understand why you would take the engine coolant heat exchanger off this machine since it is more reliable than a Little Giant heater with no moving parts at all. As for leaking? There are more of these in service today than little giants heaters and they a considered bullet proof. So my question is why waste the heat and the energy that you are paying for?
3. Additionally some of the other modifications that may have been made to this unit (I'm uncertain of it is this one or another BlueLine that Les has reengineered and posted on this bulletin board) are actually repairs of nonfactory work that had been done to the unit at some point in time after manufacturing.

Now I don't have a problem with Les opining that his units are more reliable frankly I expect nothing less from him. He has a product to sell and he is commited to it and does a good job. However as I said there may be more sides to this story than Les is aware of. Just like the issue with the Blower on the ServiceMaster unit that Les repaired, based on that circumstnace Blueline did make some changes and added a kotter key to hold a bolt in place but there were hundreds of units produced before that that used loctite and never failed. What we don't know is who did what to the unit before it got to Les to be repaired.

 

[Leslie Judson Jones]

Re: Jeff Woods – Judson Installs Reengineered Heat-Exchange

If the Thermalwave had a widespread reputation for poor heat or technical problems I could see the need for "reengineering it". Likely it just needed a few "tweeks" by someone who understood it.

I think the owner's main problem was the long distance from his distributor and a lack of ability to troubleshoot it on his own, a double-whammy for him that I understand. He was better served by a simpler machine. Bane would be a good choice for some for that reason.

Your fix was perfect for him. However it's not fair to dismiss heat-exchanged machines as problematic, they aren't for most of us.

Thanks,
Lee

Lee, what makes you so sure that I don’t understand heat exchange units?

What tweaks would you have done to make a heat exchanger heat more volume of water?

What makes you think that Jeff Woods had a lack of ability to troubleshoot the unit on his own?

Does Bane offer a cleaning system that maintains 240 degrees on a high flow?


Lee, In your opinion which would be the less problematic machine? A heat exchange unit or a propane system?

 

[joe harper]

Re: Jeff Woods – Judson Installs Reengineered Heat-Exchange

Oh..BoY...!



popcorn PLeeeeeZe..... :!:

 

[joeynbgky]

Re: Jeff Woods – Judson Installs Reengineered Heat-Exchange

I love my propane unit, but from all of the research that I have done on this topic.. I do believe that a HX unit is more reliable and wasier to maintain..... Yes, both units do have to be delimed. But my little giant needs a little more attention than a HX. The jets have to be blown out once in awhile.. I think both units are good machines. If the machine had problems that more than one could not diagnose and the customer wanted to convert it to propane, so be it.. As long as the customer wants it and not the Distributor wanting it for the customer. Either way Les made his customer happy. If it was my machine I would have had it fixed the way it was suppose to be. I bought a HX machine and spent tons of money, it better work just like the day that I bought it...

 

[floorguy]

Re: Jeff Woods – Judson Installs Reengineered Heat-Exchange

I want the best of both worlds (should i start singing??)

I want the heat to clean some furniture...and not worry about trying to cool the bastard or by-pass water like crazy

I want the heat i can clean the hell outa carpet if i so choose...

I want the pressure capabilities to run a pressure washer if i so chose on the same job that i just cleaned carpets (no not off the carpet machine) and not have to worry if my coils are going to handle it...

I want to be able to clean T&G hot as hell and decent pressure with out stressing the coils over time (and you know heat + pressure WILL stress the coil)

I want all these things AND it needs to function in a cold climate......did i mention i didnt want the hassle of copper (been there done that, so dont tell me i dont know what i am talking about)

The little giants are fine for warm climates, but not for cold...you get the nice flex from heat and contraction from cold...that is a recipe for disaster


And i think I finally found mine (with some more added tweks)

 

[woodsey]

Re: Jeff Woods – Judson Installs Reengineered Heat-Exchange

Bill, Thanks for the post. I did not have to drive 200 miles north of Chicago, I had to drive 200 miles to Chicago. You stated the thermalwave was one of the most reliable best selling units on the market, yes they were, right up to when they went out of business. If they were the most reliable units then why was I having so many problems and why are there so many on the used market not selling? You said there may have been non factory work done to this machine previous to this change over. I assure you there was not unless it was done by factory authorized people without my being told and I dont think they would do that. Why would you think it had been modified in the first place? What exactly do you think was changed ? Where does this info come from? You said what we dont know is who did what to the machine before Less got it. I can put that question to bed, I did oil changes,air filter,grease, cleaned strainers,fuel filter and changed belts . I did not modify the machine in any way. Woodsey

 

[daniel@procarpet]

Re: Jeff Woods – Judson Installs Reengineered Heat-Exchange

Oh..BoY...!



popcorn PLeeeeeZe..... :!:

Harper how do you like your Everest?

I love the incredible power, non stop 240 degree FREE heat, and versatility being able to pressure wash, do concrete and tile cleaning etc., and run two tools with good performance.

I have been running this unit hard for almost a year now trouble free. It was my fault that I purchased the machine and let it sit for a 1.5 years before using it. The throttle body flap was sticking. A little jiggle a year ago and I have had zero problems with this unit. On most jobs I have to open the exhaust diverter to keep the temp around 200. I love this machine and how it purrs.

 

[TimP]

Re: Jeff Woods – Judson Installs Reengineered Heat-Exchange

Oh..BoY...!



popcorn PLeeeeeZe..... :!:

It was my fault that I purchased the machine and let it sit for a 1.5 years before using it. The throttle body flap was sticking. A little jiggle a year ago and I have had zero problems with this unit. On most jobs I have to open the exhaust diverter to keep the temp around 200. I love this machine and how it purrs.

You're lucky you didn't have more damage to the fuel system than that. We let our boat sit for a while with this ethanol fuel......lets just say you don't want to play games with ethanol and fuel systems. You need to start engines with ethanal at a bare minimum of every 2 weeks and keep fuel stabilizer in the fuel as an added precaution. The ethanol attracts water and causes rusting, also when it separates it's a strong solvent which also doesn't help.

 

[Lee Stockwell]

Re: Jeff Woods – Judson Installs Reengineered Heat-Exchange

[quote="Lee Stockwell":1g8ce5ea]If the Thermalwave had a widespread reputation for poor heat or technical problems I could see the need for "reengineering it". Likely it just needed a few "tweeks" by someone who understood it.

I think the owner's main problem was the long distance from his distributor and a lack of ability to troubleshoot it on his own, a double-whammy for him that I understand. He was better served by a simpler machine. Bane would be a good choice for some for that reason.

Your fix was perfect for him. However it's not fair to dismiss heat-exchanged machines as problematic, they aren't for most of us.

Thanks,
Lee

Lee, what makes you so sure that I don’t understand heat exchange units?

What tweaks would you have done to make a heat exchanger heat more volume of water?

What makes you think that Jeff Woods had a lack of ability to troubleshoot the unit on his own?

Does Bane offer a cleaning system that maintains 240 degrees on a high flow?


Lee, In your opinion which would be the less problematic machine? A heat exchange unit or a propane system?[/quote:1g8ce5ea]

Les, building propane units is fine for your company, you have a lot of experience doing so. HX machines aren't your specialty. For example, did you know that by removing the coolant exchanger you make the engine run hotter?

A larger waterbox and meticulously cleaned water filters will help HX capacity.

Jeff Woods made comments on your video that telegraphed his mechanical comfort level with troubleshooting.

Bane's design gives maximum heat until the fresh water tank is emptied, no matter the flow. It's adequate and rather foolproof. It's a great machine for a newbie to learn the ropes on.

My sons and I run PC Performer 405's and haven't had any unusual glitches. Justin can change the blower belts in less than 20 minutes (he says 17) with two ratchetwrenches.

Thanks,
Lee

 

[woodsey]

Re: Jeff Woods – Judson Installs Reengineered Heat-Exchange

Lee, I may be a nubie compaired to your 40 years in the trade but I have enough experience to know I do not want a Bane. They are reliable and all that but do not have the capacity I want. I must admit I like simple systems that do simple things like pump hot water and pull air. I just want them to pump really hot water and pull alot of air . This is my simi retirement job and since starting this business 5 years ago I have learned alot and am having alot of fun. Hind sight is always clear and if I had to start over I would make different equipment choices such as instead of the thermalwave I would have been better off by far with a TNT . The beer in the freezer is really cold now so I gotta get to it. Woodsey

 

[Bob Foster]

Re: Jeff Woods – Judson Installs Reengineered Heat-Exchange

http://truckmountdepot.com/Thereactor.html[/url]

 

[Jim Williams]

Re: Jeff Woods – Judson Installs Reengineered Heat-Exchange

The huge advantage I see in what Les is doing is that if you have an aging HX system with lots of extra parts that are going bad you can get Les to rebuild it into a machine that you can get more years out of.

My White Magic Commander has over 4300 hours on it and I will no doubt start having some problems in the near future. This thing is a plumbing night mare with switches and wires all over the place. My TM mechanic tried to find the recirculation line filter screen one day and finally gave up. At this point simplicity would be a blessing. Les is just offering an option other than replacing the whole machine.

 

[Leslie Judson Jones]

Re: Jeff Woods – Judson Installs Reengineered Heat-Exchange

2. I still don't understand why you would take the engine coolant heat exchanger off this machine since it is more reliable than a Little Giant heater with no moving parts at all. As for leaking? There are more of these in service today than little giants heaters and they a considered bullet proof. So my question is why waste the heat and the energy that you are paying for?

Bill, the reason that I removed the heat exchanger was to eliminate anything that is not necessary that could possibly give a problem. Plus, when we resell the parts that we took off the unit, it has some value to someone that still wants to use one of these. As far as my statement about these leaking, that came from Scott at Blueline. He was talking to Greenie and told him that Blueline is welding them closed due to leaks. I took this as credible information because I worked with Scott for 2 years when I was with Blueline.

The reason I am posting this on the bulletin board, is because a lot of people with heat exchangers are in desperate situations trying to keep them running. It is just an option for someone to be able to use their existing machine and have more performance and be more reliable.

To answer your question about why not use the free heat that you’re already paying for; Jeff no longer has to run his unit at a high RPM to produce enough heat for a standard flow wand and this RPM still does not provide enough heat for a high flow system. Remember, Jeff’s unit would drop to 140 on high flow and he was supplementing the heat with a Little Giant heater. Now, after I reengineered the unit, Jeff can run the unit at the single wand low RPM setting and is saving a tremendous amount of fuel cost and wear on the engine. It is just not needed with a #4 heater. Jeff now has a watercooled engine running like it was originally designed from the factory to run, running at a lower RPM with a 2 inch exhaust system now. So he should get a tremendous amount of life out of this engine.

Since I posted the Project Bluebook video on Youtube, I have had a surprising number of calls from people who watched it. I have one guy coming from Texas bringing me a unit that is not a Blueline. I also have a guy bringing me his HX from Iowa that is not a Blueline. I have 3 HX units in my shop right now that are being reengineered that are not Bluelines. I’m not sure if you watched my videos, but I made a statement that I was not calling out any particular manufacturer of a heat exchange unit. Blueline just happens to be the first one that I made a video on.

For what it’s worth Bill, if somebody calls me and says, “I have to have a heat exchanger. No way do I want Propane”, I always suggest a Sapphire as a possibility because it does seem to be a simpler designed HX. I am not just saying this to humor you. I’ve actually said it to people on this board. So maybe some of them will pipe up and confirm this.

 

[cucu]

Re: Jeff Woods – Judson Installs Reengineered Heat-Exchange

last year When i told Les i had bought a ss370 ,his words to me where a long the lines of "thats great it looks like a neat unit with a lot of thought behind it."

when i called Les a few weeks back and ordered a new tnt he did ask why i did not get another ss. i had to tell him

it just not a Judson
my reactor hx been in the shop for repairs 0 times (temp 210)
my ss370 hx been in the shop for repairs 3 times (temp 240) (nothing major that would make me knock the company , or make me tell people not to get one,
good company who stand behind what they make. the ss370 is a Good unit. )

imo the judson is just a better unit overall
but im only doing this for 15 years so what do i know

 

[joeynbgky]

Re: Jeff Woods – Judson Installs Reengineered Heat-Exchange

Les, at one time you did suggest a Saphire unit to me. But, I just couldn't afford one at the time. So i stuck with my TCs with a LG... BTW, when I talked to Les he never once pushed me onto Judson! Les, do you sell Saphire units? I am assuming you do cause you told me about them! If not you should... And Mr.Bruders I think you should run a .9 % financing special like the car dealers on your units, I may buy one then

 

[Leslie Judson Jones]

Re: Jeff Woods – Judson Installs Reengineered Heat-Exchange

Les, building propane units is fine for your company, you have a lot of experience doing so. HX machines aren't your specialty. For example, did you know that by removing the coolant exchanger you make the engine run hotter?

Lee,

I am inviting you to come to Greenville to visit my facility. I think your opinion of me will change once you see the 40 – 45 experimental heat exchange units I have in the field here. I have designed heat exchangers in every possible configuration you can imagine. I even made a small unit with an 8 hp single cylinder air cooled engine on which I had an oil cooler behind the cooling fins of the engine to preheat the water. This unit had a #2L blower turning 6,000 rpm with a blower heat exchanger. The unit also had exhaust heat exchangers with preheat stingers on the end of them. This unit would sustain 180 degrees with the trigger held open full time.

The best design I have come up with so far is the Reactor which Cu owns. What is so unique about this particular heat exchanger is that the only control on the unit is a $5 car thermostat. When the unit increases in temperature, water will flow into the radiator and stabilize, similar to the Butler system. This unit also has an exhaust heat exchanger with engine coolant running through it. The pump pumps cold and the regulator operates cold. This unit is a 200 degree machine. The reason I am not selling Reactors at this time is that people keep telling me they have to have more than 200 degrees. This will require a more complex design and I am not willing to give up reliability.

Your comment about removing the coolant heat exchanger making the engine run hotter may be true, but it is insignificant. The engine has an internal thermostat that prevents the engine from running over designed operating temperature. As long as we are running the engine at the temperature that the engine manufacturer designed it to run, we will not have a problem.

A larger waterbox and meticulously cleaned water filters will help HX capacity.

Lee,

The larger the water box on a heat exchanger, the longer the unit takes to preheat. Once this heat is stored in the larger capacity water box, it will give you a longer trigger time but on very large commercial jobs it will eventually drop back off. A larger water box will not allow the machine to operate at higher temperatures. It will just give you more time before the temperature does drop.

Jeff Woods made comments on your video that telegraphed his mechanical comfort level with troubleshooting.

Jeff Woods did trouble shoot the machine correctly. It was a computer failure. Jeff Woods was told he needed to replace the computer. All I did was reset the computer once it came to me.

Bane's design gives maximum heat until the fresh water tank is emptied, no matter the flow. It's adequate and rather foolproof. It's a great machine for a newbie to learn the ropes on.

You’re correct. Until the tank depletes it will maintain that temperature, but if you put a high flow system on a Bane, it does not have adequate vacuum capabilities to recover it. A Bane has a 33 Roots blower turning 1750 rpms. The relief valve is set at 10 inches of mercury.

My sons and I run PC Performer 405's and haven't had any unusual glitches. Justin can change the blower belts in less than 20 minutes (he says 17) with two ratchetwrenches.

Lee,

I’m glad you and your son are working together. I worked with my Dad most of my life. I was born into this industry. The Prochem 405 is the best truckmount Prochem has ever made. That is why you are having so few problems with it.





P.S. Here is a photograph from 1979 where I reengineered a Prochem 100A. Also a photo of an air-cooled TNT with an experimental heat exchanger on it, which works quite well, but the pump does pump hot on this unit.