Now that I've been OPing for a while now..

[hogjowl]

You've only mastered the method when you've learned to agree with PadPrick.

:roll:

 

[The Asian Sensation]

You've only mastered the method when you've learned to agree with PadPrick.

:roll:

SoOOooO True...Lmao

 

[The Asian Sensation]

Re: ROFLMAO.... "Mastered the method".

You bet Mikey, you are so smart that in mastered in a couple months what others have taken years to do, what arrogance!

Now, your saying OP takes years to "master"? So...itll be years until one person can exspect results like yours John?

I remember asking Patty if OP was "Hard" to learn and she specifically said that it wasnt (and its not hard IMO) and I think (Im not 100 sure here on this part) that she said its actually easier to learn when compare to HWE. SO...were you guys just trying to make a sale?



Seriously, What is there to really "Master"? ...All you have to do is to know your carpets so that you dont tipbloom the damn thing, learn to follow the instruction to mix the chems, then throw some damp pads down and go to town with the damn machine (little more than that..but, you guys get the idea). Jeeebus!! This aint no damn Ninja training!!

 

[John G]

Look Senor Asian Sensation, it doesn't take long to learn OP and do it well, OF COURSE it takes years to MASTER, DUH! Master is not just a word that means mediocre, master means something, some understand that, some don't.

Like I said, some get it, some don't, many have mastered it, a few CAN'T, I think the main requirement is to take a bit of time and NOT be from Prattsville. PorkPrick thought 150 degrees was HOT water when he came to Atlanta.. LMAO!


Funny how SOME learn quickly and get the SAME results I do, yet some NEVER can, it obviously is not the METHOD that is the problem...

 

[Ron Werner]

Well, from what I've seen in vids of OP'rs, they haven't mastered it either. They should have changed pads LONG before they do. They might pick up "some" soil when they are black, but they ain't "cleaning".

Mastering HWE isn't that difficult. FOr the most part as long as someone puts in the time to prep properly, and then take time for proper rinsing, its a no brainer. Its all the spot cleaning and knowledge of WHAT to use to get the soils off that takes the mastering.

I would say mastering OP would be more difficult, esp to get a carpet "clean"! Knowing "when" to stop and change that pad, having "enough" pads,

Commercially, 10000+sf, OP? Go for it. Of course HWE will take longer. No one will pay 40+ cents/sf for someone to take the necessary time to do the job right, ie a "good" prevac, precondition, scrub and extract. It would take hours what an OP can do in minutes.

AS for staying cleaner longer, Larry, when you HWE did you prevac or pretend to prevac. If you just pretended of course the OP with an encap will stay cleaner longer. Its the encap, not the process.

 

[Padden McFadden]

I've been OP only for a year now. I would say that I know how to clean with OP, but can't say I've mastered it. I still learn new things about OP. I think in order to master something, you need to be willing to learn from someone who has already mastered it. It don't seem Mickey wants to learn, he only wants to teach. IMO

P.S Asian sensation, your either mean spirited, or your just slow,
Patty told you the truth. Op cleaning is easy to learn , and a new guy can get good results about 80% of the time, but a master can get excellent results all the time. I learned how to drive at 16 but took a few years before I would say I was a "master" driver. I leaned how to golf real easy but have not "mastered" it. I can give a hundred examples! So quit trying to slam Patty, your just showing your lack of common sense. Or is it that you get your kicks out of trying to make others look bad?
My advise to you as a friend is GROW UP!

 

[Ed]

The fall from grace is sometimes ugly. This one is down right fugly.

 

[The Asian Sensation]

I've been OP only for a year now. I would say that I know how to clean with OP, but can't say I've mastered it. I still learn new things about OP. I think in order to master something, you need to be willing to learn from someone who has already mastered it. It don't seem Mickey wants to learn, he only wants to teach. IMO

P.S Asian sensation, your either mean spirited, or your just slow,
Patty told you the truth. Op cleaning is easy to learn , and a new guy can get good results about 80% of the time, but a master can get excellent results all the time. I learned how to drive at 16 but took a few years before I would say I was a "master" driver. I leaned how to golf real easy but have not "mastered" it. I can give a hundred examples! So quit trying to slam Patty, your just showing your lack of common sense. Or is it that you get your kicks out of trying to make others look bad?
My advise to you as a friend is GROW UP!

Maybe you need to reread my post again buddy. Nowhere did I say that It was hard to learn or that I cant clean a carpet with OP. And I dont see how my post was "mean Spirited" or am I slamming Patty in anyway.

I just dont appreciate it when people bring up issues regarding OP or have negative Opinions...it always end up as that person is not "skilled" enough or just havent "Mastered" it.

But Im sure youre not Bias in anyway or form with the name Paddin Mcfadden.

 

[Clark]

Well Boys. I can not be called a Master Cleaner. And do not want to be. My Wife and I have been cleaning for 6 years now. In that time we have cleaned 315 Circuit City's at 8.125 M/sf, 185 Stage Stores at 2.730 M/sf and 75 Babys R Us at 2.1 M/sf. That is a bunch of work. Around 6 to 8 stores a month. We always got paid and we always left the store looking good. But did we clean it? NO! I would have liked to pre vacuumed and pos vacuumed. But we didn't. But I'm here to tell you that I could not have pulled a wand around for 35000 sf in 4 hours. And I'm sure not going to stay over a second day and correct the wick backs. I build OP's, sell them and clean with them. But they are not a standalone system. OP is a maintenance system. At some point you will need HWE. But you can make more money if you will work it as a maintenance system. You will find that when you HWE it will be easier. I've seen HWE cleaner haul out loads of soil and leave the store looking like it was never cleaned. And they did not get paid. Mike is wright. The best is vacuum, pre scrub, HWE, and post pad. But you have to sell it as your premium work and charge for it. A combination of VLM and HWE in a maintenance system will lock you in for a longer time. And you can get you ASS KICKED with an OP Machine on residential carpet if you do not know what you are doing.

 

[The Asian Sensation]

Well Boys. I can not be called a Master Cleaner. And do not want to be. My Wife and I have been cleaning for 6 years now. In that time we have cleaned 315 Circuit City's at 8.125 M/sf, 185 Stage Stores at 2.730 M/sf and 75 Babys R Us at 2.1 M/sf. That is a bunch of work. Around 6 to 8 stores a month. We always got paid and we always left the store looking good. But did we clean it? NO! I would have liked to pre vacuumed and pos vacuumed. But we didn't. But I'm here to tell you that I could not have pulled a wand around for 35000 sf in 4 hours. And I'm sure not going to stay over a second day and correct the wick backs. I build OP's, sell them and clean with them. But they are not a standalone system. OP is a maintenance system. At some point you will need HWE. But you can make more money if you will work it as a maintenance system. You will find that when you HWE it will be easier. I've seen HWE cleaner haul out loads of soil and leave the store looking like it was never cleaned. And they did not get paid. Mike is wright. The best is vacuum, pre scrub, HWE, and post pad. But you have to sell it as your premium work and charge for it. A combination of VLM and HWE in a maintenance system will lock you in for a longer time.

NOW thats HONESTY you can take to the bank!! and thats why I respect Clark.

 

[Padden McFadden]

Asian,
It seemed to me that you were implying that Patty lied to you about it being easy to learn, in-order to sell you a machine. My comments were based on that understanding.
If that's not what you meant, I'm SORRY

Easy to learn? Yes. Easy to "master"? No
I'm sure we agree on that right? :wink:

 

[Mikey P]

Does a "Master" mechanic only work with box wrenches?

 

[Rob Rocha]

I use a 175 on most carpets, just got an Op and testing it out so far I like it on looped pile. First, yes you can get the pads clean, I wash them in a big commercial machine and then make sure to dry them fully. I can put a pad in a 5 gallon bucket of water after and it doesn't change the water, but if I did that after I used the pad the water would be very brown and I change the pads very frequently when cleaning which helps save the pads and cleans the carpet quicker. The cotton pads don't last as long as the synthetics but they don't cost as much either.
The main thing I do when cleaning is take my time let the machine and pads do all the work, I don't swing them around. I also use plenty of pads as many as it takes. And yes the carpets are clean. An Hwe guy can come behind me and probably get a little bit of soil out, just like I can probably come behind an Hwe guy and get a little soil on a clean pad but both of our custys are very happy.
AND talk about it not being deep cleaning ,just about every carpet is only dirty about 1/4th to 1/5th the way down the fiber because of the way it naturally lays to one side protecting the rest which looks the same as when it was first put in. So how deep does anyone want to clean a carpet unless it has a spill, yet I know my pads are going at least half way down the fiber.

 

[Fon Johnson]

Does a "Master" mechanic only work with box wrenches?

That, my friends, was the most profound statement so far. Of course I don't really know much myself. I'm still kinda new at this carpet cleaning thing..

 

[Mikey P]

If you have commercial accounts that are willing to pay for vacuuming, pre-treating, scrubbing, rinsing and post padding that is great. What are you charging for that? If you are trying to compete for large maintenance accounts, most will laugh you out the door when you quote profitably for that. How much commercial carpet is being improperly extracted because of low prices? Properly performed VLM is better than splash and dash.

.

I totally agree.


I only do small commercial where I have the choice of providing both methods at residential prices.


And yes, poorly executed HWE will look way worse then a lousy VLM job.
Many a high rise can be maintained with just a Low Moisture process for the life of it's carpet but I'm betting David uses HWE to clean his family room carpet at home. Most likely assisted with a rotary.

Even Big John admits (albeit on the Resoil board) that a dual process is best..

Posted by John Geurkink on 5/8/2008, 8:00 am, in reply to "Re: Op Cleaning"
72.171.0.139

Jim, you already have a recoil, that along with OP will do anything you want it to. These is no better combination for cleaning.

Both systems clean and clean well, the combination cleans ANYTHING!

Although I doubt John has ever had the pleasure of working ON a reSoil, other wise he would not be recommending them.

These is no better combination for cleaning

Actually a TM along with an OP is the better combination but poor Ed would slit his own throat if JG had said the truth.

 

[B&BGaryC]

I can confidently say that I've mastered the System" as much as anyone could ever hope to, I have to say, that as a stand alone method it really is nothing more then grinding in the dirt with maybe 20% soil removal at best.


Sure we can choose to fool our commercial clients with it and solve the messes the HWE soakers create but it can not even come close to comparing to a good vac-scrub-rinse-pad super cleaning.


And in many cases it is outright fraud to call it "Cleaning" at any level.

Will I continue to offer it on CGD situations?

Sure.




As long as they let me do a periodic rinsing as part of the upkeep.





Suffice it to say if you only offer OP/VLM, you should be ashamed of yourself.

I've been skipping over this post the whole time. Never bothered to click it or see who posted it. Finally I saw it was mikey and I had to have a look. I feared the worst.

I'd say I'm happy with how this discussion turned out. Of course it's not clean, it's maintained. I'm gonna have to go back and encap a few areas or do a deep scrub at a nursing home I just extracted. Most came out beautiful, but a few areas were just plain ugly.

They had me come in and bid these areas when I worked for "elite" cleaning co. They just said "too much" and went on to the next. This was when I had been instructed to bid HWE for commercial at 12-16 cents/foot. I don't even want to know what the hell they have been doing to the physical therapy room and the few offices nearby for the past three years since I last bid the job. They said yes to 18/sq ft with a $100 charge for additional setup. I didn't even bother trying to sell them the deep scrub deluxe cleaning (Pre and post pad, adsorbent and absorbent) that they needed... Now it's gonna be my problem that HWE didn't reverse the damage done by Godknowswho&Son's Cleaning INC. I'm thinking of going back and giving them the full treatement on the area that is an easy setup and padcapping the area that is a knarly setup.

We'll see how it goes.

 

[DavidVB]

Mike,

You are basically correct. I have experimented with OP in residential. I think it is too aggressive for some cut pile. The idea is to stop when you see distortion. I have to wonder what distortion is occuring that the naked eye can't see.

I have cleaned my white cut pile with a rotary and a microfiber. The carpet is never heavily soiled. It cleans well and stays clean a long time. However, we stay with the truckmount for residential and have both a rotary and a GLS for a scrub when and where needed.

I just disagree when I see negative comments about the value of the Cimex or CX20 in commercial work. With improved chemistry, you can maintain a lot of carpet for a long time without extracting.

Gary says "Of course its not clean, its maintained." A properly maintained carpet is a clean carpet in the best sense of the word.

 

[Kevin B]

Marty & Mikey;

I'm a TM proponent & cleaner.

I sell far more HWE equip & chem. than Encap.

I have cleaned several thousand sq.ft.of our level-loop carpet with:

1. Fire-breathing 38 HP system w/ #59 blower and 240° of heat.
(I've even compared a Vortex TM)

2. Encap with microfiber bonnets

Initially, the HWE looks slightly cleaner....

As the days go by, the Encap cleaning looks better than the HWE.

Larry

WTF are you using to clean HWE with....

 

[John G]

The best marketing strategy is to state OP is "just" a tool and not standalone, however when that conflicts with your own experience it is not right to claim otherwise. Some call it bias, some call it stupid, some see it for what it is, the truth.

 

[The Preacher]

i didn't see anyone tell the truth yet. it's a lack of proper daily VACUUMING that keeps carpet from really being CLEAN!

above the 2nd floor of a building OP/Cimex/GLS/Rotary only makes sense from a $$$making point of view. if the ground floors are maintained with mats, vacuuming and a good flush/pad method all will be well above that!!!

 

[Padden McFadden]

Mickey, I know a master who could fix anything with a box wrench, can also clean carpets with it too!!
His name is Yoda.

 

[Guest]

LOL!
YODA! LOL! That's great!



I only gots a EZ truckmount.

 

[Jeff Brown]

I only offer OP/VLM cleaning and I'm not ashamed.

and since the vac removes 70 to 80% of soil 20% removal by an op machine is pretty darn good, that will give you really clean carpets with out using $90,000 worth of equipment, 1000 gal of water and a 12 step program, oh yea, and a chemical cocktail that will blow the roof off the house.

 

[Pmatte]

Maybe when Mikey mentioned "mastering" the OP system,he figured he "master-ed" it(op) because his brain is full :shock:

Just kidding Mikey,this is a fun post.
Patrick

 

[Mikey P]

I'm betting MR Brown has never used a truck mount with today's technology.

 

[B&BGaryC]

I only offer OP/VLM cleaning and I'm not ashamed.

and since the vac removes 70 to 80% of soil 20% removal by an op machine is pretty darn good, that will give you really clean carpets with out using $90,000 worth of equipment, 1000 gal of water and a 12 step program, oh yea, and a chemical cocktail that will blow the roof off the house.

I am pretty sure the figures on vacuums removing 70-80% of soil are factored based on daily vacuuming. Not just one quick vacuuming, or even one werner style vacuuming. I'm pretty sure when you let the vacuuming go for a good five years you are not removing 70-80% of the soil with one vacuuming. I could be wrong, but that's just a guess.

 

[Shawn Forsythe]

Clark's point of view practically mirrors the people at Whittaker.

I've always had enormous respect for Whittaker. They were the pioneers of encapsulation, and have never oversold the concept or their products.

When encapsulation chemical companies bragged that their products were stand-alone, and that their LM process could be used without a restorative method, Whittaker always shirked that kind of snake-oil cure all mentality.

I used to spend a great deal of time arguing with the over-hyping proponents of encap over the propaganda to gain market share, and received very little public support over the position. Whittaker always stood by a very defendable position that the process was in interim maintenance method, and nothing more. Even in their sales literature, Whittaker makes mention that repeat encap has diminishing return in appearance, and that periodic reset with a restorative method like HWE is a must.

Cudos to Clark's post! May it be transferred to our library when this thread has run its course.

Shawn


p.s. We sell all types of CC equip and chemicals, both HWE and Encap. I do not place a preference of one over the other, so long as each method's characteristics advantages and disadvantages are properly applied for each situation.

 

[Mikey P]

Will a upright vacuum up 70% of the dog urine too?

 

[Mikey P]

Buffing off wick back residues can give a guy delusions of grindeur.

 

[harryhides]

I only offer OP/VLM cleaning and I'm not ashamed.
and since the vac removes 70 to 80% of soil 20% removal by an op machine is pretty darn good, that will give you really clean carpets with out using $90,000 worth of equipment, 1000 gal of water and a 12 step program, oh yea, and a chemical cocktail that will blow the roof off the house.

Jeff, while pre-vacuuming is very important you should know that the 70-80% figure is a myth. According to PTL when doing their testing for equipment manufacturers seeking SOA approval they found that on average the best vacuum cleaners removed 53% of the soil.
The SOA’s system test is done according to each manufacturer’s instructions: Pre-vacuum, pre-spray and extract. The vacuuming is done per ASTM #608 at 1.8 ft per sec — two forward and two backward passes.

We also know that one square foot of cut pile carpet can hold up to 32 ounces of dirt. So a very soiled carpet with 50 % of the 32 ounces removed by vacuuming would still contain up to 16 oz of soil per sq foot. Shaw's tests revealed that a good tm removed up to 90% of the soil ( presumably new soil).
Although OP has many benefits ( which we appreciate ) and can make most carpets look darned good, I doubt ( though I have never tested this ) that it can remove close to 90% of the soil remaining after vacuuming.

ps, Very few use 90k equip or a 12 step method, no-one uses 1,000 gals or the kind of cocktail you refer to. If you want to be taken seriously try to stick to the facts.