Polyester BCF

timnelson

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The latest Floorcovering Weekly has an interesting article about the surge in polyester bulked continuous filament (PBCF) carpets. Here's a summary for you:

Polyester has gained market share because it is least affected by rising oil prices. Also, polyester BCF and nylon BCF can be extruded with the same equipment.

Reading between the lines, the article pretty much says, "PBCF is really coming on strong, especially compared to the old stuff (staple), which was total crap. But PBCF still ain't nylon."

Newest polyester is Dacron XPS (Invista). Two polyesters with different melting points are used in the yarn. When heat set, one acts as a binder for the other, producing a more resilient yarn. Seven year stain warranty, five year texture retention.
 

Bob Foster

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But at least it has the hope of holding out better than some of the crap we have to clean. I believe the poor durability of much of the current flooring is responsible for persuading home owners over to hard surface floor coverings.
 
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R.J. Povio
I agree with KEVIN and BOB

never never never ever buy polyester......i don't care if its 99% nylon and 1% polyester.....polyester is the worst carpet I have ever seen/cleaned....crap mats out in months, pile reverses, and is not soft like nylon is. I had a custy recently....have her whole house carpeting replaced 3 yrs ago......liv din hall all polyester......3 brs all karastan nylon.....the nylon had no wear to it at all....the polyester.....ruined.

Polyester i hear is supposed to be way cheaper than nylon.....about a third of the cost of nylon is what an apartment complex has told me.....thats why they buy the SH!@ polyester instead of the nylon.
 

TimP

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Another thing they are doing (at least Shaw is) is using Recycled nylon and calling it a "green" fiber. I suppose it could help it to cost less :roll: I really don't know but if the material has been used a while and started to break down wouldn't that make it more likely to not last very long and defeat the purpose? I don't know the technical aspect to it but I don't know if I want recycled material for carpet or not. And I don't really see how it could save money since last I heard it costs as much to make a product from recycled materials as new. Just keep in mind guys there really isn't anything new out there right now as far as we are concerned, just polyester is going to be what we see the most of in the future.
 

steve g

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the mills are shooting themselves in the foot further, its been clear carpet has been loosing market share to other flooring types for years, its because people are not satisfied with the product because its poor and because most people are frankly scared a carpet cleaner will make the carpet worse.

so what is the mills response to customer dissatisfaction issues??? make the product cheaper, add more sand and fillers to the latex backing, use cheaper crap fibers, etc, so what is the long term effect of their choices?? more of the same and perhaps even worse. frize style carpet that is made of poly is still garbage and will still be garbage with poly in it, it will just look nice and up to date style wise when new, so people are buying pretty garbage

today I cleaned a cut pile olefin, yes you heard that right a cut pile olefin, its was such an awful carpet it should be illegal for the mills to sell it.
 

TimP

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Steve

Jeff Cutshall shows some cut pile olefin in his CCT class that he got from someone who sells the stuff. Guess what they sell it for??? 50 bucks a yard, yeah it's thick and looks nice but as we all know it's junk. He was pretty well amazed and it's why he shows it I think and probably to prove to us cleaners that it's not just made in loop pile.
 

Doug Cox

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Anyone whose been around a few years knows that olefin is made in cut pile form. Not very often though.
 

Harry Myers

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Staple fiber which when making fiber it is used with a saw tooth crimp . This fiber strand is built like a ( z ) coil . Imagine a synthetic fiber being step on every day. It has no boyency spring back performance . Now with the BCF FIBER this method of fiber bulking is an ( s ) like a slinky. This is what is called a curvelinear crimp So what happens here is the resiliency is a much better performance. Im sure it would be better.
 

billyeadon

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Back in the late 80s when Amoco really marketed olefin as Genesis it was the hottest thing going. Marquesa Solana was the commercial product.
That was Royal Wool.

Once everybody realized what crap cutpile olefin was the market dropped and Amoco sold it to Shaw.
 

ScottM

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Bill,

Genesis brings back lots of memories, BAD ONES!

I remember one client said, "they said it wouldn't get dirty"
 

KevinL

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I was in a brand new Menard's yesterday and 5 people in the flooring section all looking at laminate and hardwood.

I once said the mills shouldn't make crap and someone replied, "what if that's all someone can afford and they want to put it in a low traffic area like the bedroom?" Well that's fine if the retailers would be honest with people and tell them it won't hold up in medium to high traffic areas. It's the damn sales people. I don't think to many of them know any more than what the brochure says when they get carpet.
 

steve g

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whats really funny is my carpet supplier has carpet that is like woven olefin, it has a woven back with print patterns on it, kinda like an axeminister type carpet but olefin, that is prolly the $50 buck yard stuff that someone mentioned. I see alot of cheap rugs that are made in a similar way, however I can't imagine paying that for wall to wall, olefin does come in a few cut piles carpets, however its been pretty rare that I see it thankfully. its also unmistakable when I see it too.
 

John Buxton

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I agree with all of these comments about poly and olefin. Just because its cheaper to make doesnt mean they will sell it for less, it goes straight to profit. Until Mrs Custy calls in 2 years cause it looks and performs like crap. Been on lots of those calls for retailers here in Indy.

Next time she'll put in hard floors and be done with it. But to be honest, who really likes to deal with home maintenance? I dont.
 

truckmount girl

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KevinL said:
I was in a brand new Menard's yesterday and 5 people in the flooring section all looking at laminate and hardwood.

I once said the mills shouldn't make crap and someone replied, "what if that's all someone can afford and they want to put it in a low traffic area like the bedroom?" Well that's fine if the retailers would be honest with people and tell them it won't hold up in medium to high traffic areas. It's the damn sales people. I don't think to many of them know any more than what the brochure says when they get carpet.

It's the death of the educated, experienced career mom and pop carpet retailers to big box retailing. The mills fell all over themselves to court big box retailers like Carpet one, Home Depot, Lowes, Menard's, etc... and hung the small retailers out to dry....that is now coming back on them tenfold. Without the vital link in the chain (educated, experienced, career retailers) we will all suffer as the public has little more information to rely on for their carpet purchases than color, style and price....oh, and the marketing propaganda from the mills.

I'd be frustrated and switching to hard floors too!

BRING BACK MOM AND POP CARPET RETAILERS! MILLS NEED TO QUIT CATERING TO THE DEMANDS OF BIG BOX RETAILERS WHO MEAN SHORT TERM PROFITS, BUT LONG TERM DISSATISFACTION WITH PRODUCT PERFORMANCE.

Take care,
Lisa
 

steve g

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truckmount girl said:
KevinL said:
I was in a brand new Menard's yesterday and 5 people in the flooring section all looking at laminate and hardwood.

I once said the mills shouldn't make crap and someone replied, "what if that's all someone can afford and they want to put it in a low traffic area like the bedroom?" Well that's fine if the retailers would be honest with people and tell them it won't hold up in medium to high traffic areas. It's the damn sales people. I don't think to many of them know any more than what the brochure says when they get carpet.

It's the death of the educated, experienced career mom and pop carpet retailers to big box retailing. The mills fell all over themselves to court big box retailers like Carpet one, Home Depot, Lowes, Menard's, etc... and hung the small retailers out to dry....that is now coming back on them tenfold. Without the vital link in the chain (educated, experienced, career retailers) we will all suffer as the public has little more information to rely on for their carpet purchases than color, style and price....oh, and the marketing propaganda from the mills.

I'd be frustrated and switching to hard floors too!

BRING BACK MOM AND POP CARPET RETAILERS! MILLS NEED TO QUIT CATERING TO THE DEMANDS OF BIG BOX RETAILERS WHO MEAN SHORT TERM PROFITS, BUT LONG TERM DISSATISFACTION WITH PRODUCT PERFORMANCE.

Take care,
Lisa

you guys hit it, I was sitting waiting at my carpet suppliers, when some other people walked up with some samples of low loop commercial carpet they where considering for a day care they where gonna open. anyway the mill rep happens to be behind the counter he finally comes over and says he doesn't work there but noticed they had samples that where some of his carpets, I happened to notice that the samples they had where olefin, in front of the customer and infront of the mill rep, I told them olefin was garbage to their face, and told the customers look for the same style of carpet in a nylon, the mill rep about had a coronary with steam coming from his head, he then told me olefin carpet was the only one that could be steam cleaned, it lasted better than nylon, after I asked him what certifications he had, as I had them in cleaning and carpet repair and see the product after its been laid and how it holds up, he says he had "10 certifications" keep in mind this argument was infront of the customers, I could see this guy was a one up lier extronair. I gave up, when I sell carpet I will not sell olefin unless its a larger loop berber for residential, no polyester in anything, if that means me loosing a sale then so be it, the fact is noone cares if the product is gonna last, they just sell whatever to make a sale
 

billyeadon

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Carpet One

Lisa,
Carpet One is the mom and pop store of yesterday. They were smart enough to see the writing on the wall of HD. They have buying power combined with knowledge and service.

Look at their new warranty that guarantees anything after the sale. 6 months from now if they don't like the carpet it is replaced at no cost including pad and labor. That is tough to beat.

Just as a smart retailer offers multiple flooring materials we should offer multiple service options. We must remember we are in the service business.






truckmount girl said:
KevinL said:
I was in a brand new Menard's yesterday and 5 people in the flooring section all looking at laminate and hardwood.

I once said the mills shouldn't make crap and someone replied, "what if that's all someone can afford and they want to put it in a low traffic area like the bedroom?" Well that's fine if the retailers would be honest with people and tell them it won't hold up in medium to high traffic areas. It's the damn sales people. I don't think to many of them know any more than what the brochure says when they get carpet.

It's the death of the educated, experienced career mom and pop carpet retailers to big box retailing. The mills fell all over themselves to court big box retailers like Carpet one, Home Depot, Lowes, Menard's, etc... and hung the small retailers out to dry....that is now coming back on them tenfold. Without the vital link in the chain (educated, experienced, career retailers) we will all suffer as the public has little more information to rely on for their carpet purchases than color, style and price....oh, and the marketing propaganda from the mills.

I'd be frustrated and switching to hard floors too!

BRING BACK MOM AND POP CARPET RETAILERS! MILLS NEED TO QUIT CATERING TO THE DEMANDS OF BIG BOX RETAILERS WHO MEAN SHORT TERM PROFITS, BUT LONG TERM DISSATISFACTION WITH PRODUCT PERFORMANCE.

Take care,
Lisa
 

truckmount girl

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Re: Carpet One

billyeadon said:
Lisa,
Carpet One is the mom and pop store of yesterday. They were smart enough to see the writing on the wall of HD. They have buying power combined with knowledge and service.

Look at their new warranty that guarantees anything after the sale. 6 months from now if they don't like the carpet it is replaced at no cost including pad and labor. That is tough to beat.

Just as a smart retailer offers multiple flooring materials we should offer multiple service options. We must remember we are in the service business.

Maybe these are not up to date, but this is what I could find on Carpet One's warranty offers:

http://www.buddyallencarpetone.com/warr ... ation.html
http://www.insidedesignc1.com/carpetone.html

I would also like to read the warranty thoroughly because it has been my experience that warranties are not worth much. If the salespeople were better at recommending the correct product for the situation warranties would not be needed. Why are warranty issues such a marketing hot button?? BECAUSE CRAP HAS BEEN SOLD FOR THE LAST DECADE. In the 60's and 70's people didn't even realize there were warranties, because the goods sold were of a quality that warranties were rarely needed.

Even if the new warranty programs get honored unconditionally, I, as a carpet buying consumer, would not want the disruption to my home or business to replace crap carpet at the frequency this junk uglies out. Warranty or no, it's still junk.

Because Carpet One is a franchise, like Chem-Dry or Stanley Steemer, the experience of the individual consumer is going to vary from store to store, salesperson (technician) to salesperson. Some may be outstanding, but there are many who are far from it. Our area is notorious for fly-by-night Carpet One retailers.

Why can't the mills see the folly and ultimate harm to the credibility of their industry and realize that catering to large retailers and lowering the quality to meet their cost requirements will be to their ultimate detriment, if not their demise?

Take care,
Lisa
 
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I agree with Bill Yeadon, Carpet One is not the same as box stores. They run a very tight ship on their franchises and they do stand behind their products. They have programs for keeping their sales people educated and at least in our market, they push quality products. Yes, they have the cheap stuff but it is a very low percentage of their sales. I really like their Lee's brand which comes from Mohawk.
 

TimP

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These carpet franchises and box stores don't get better pricing than a mom and pop dealer on their carpet. The only time they get better pricing is when they buy tons of one particular style and color to stock in all their stores. If you purchase anything custom for your home they go by the same price list as everyone else. And keep in mind the franchises have an up charge to pay to the franchise for advertising fees etc to pay to the parent company. Just like with all the other franchises. You can get more bang for your buck at the mom and pop for just about anything custom. I can get lumber even cheaper than the box stores from my local hardware. Mostly the box and franchises use propaganda to make you think they are the cheapest. I bet a lot of you didn't know you can't even cross shop HD and Lowes on the same exact rug.....they have their own names that nobody else carries :shock: now think about that one!!!
 

billyeadon

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HD

Tim,
I think the difference from M&P is that Carpet One gets a tremendous boost from the branding money that their parent spends. Remember that while everyone refers to HD as the #1 flooring retailer they are mostly talking about cash and carry stuff. Most HD's sell less than 5% of the carpet sold in a normal city. Noone wants to buy carpet from a lumber salesman. But they do sell a lot of tile and laminate for the DIY customer.

Why do you think they closed most of their Expos and their call center for installation. Since they dumped Nardelli they are going to go back to what HD does best "stack it deep and sell it cheap."

There are still a few quality mom & pops but they are a dying breed.




TimP said:
These carpet franchises and box stores don't get better pricing than a mom and pop dealer on their carpet. The only time they get better pricing is when they buy tons of one particular style and color to stock in all their stores. If you purchase anything custom for your home they go by the same price list as everyone else. And keep in mind the franchises have an up charge to pay to the franchise for advertising fees etc to pay to the parent company. Just like with all the other franchises. You can get more bang for your buck at the mom and pop for just about anything custom. I can get lumber even cheaper than the box stores from my local hardware. Mostly the box and franchises use propaganda to make you think they are the cheapest. I bet a lot of you didn't know you can't even cross shop HD and Lowes on the same exact rug.....they have their own names that nobody else carries :shock: now think about that one!!!
 

steve g

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bill, here is the problem with you being so high on carpet one, and it ultimately even affects you yourself, here is how, look at how all business is going, retail, carpet cleaning, and restoration services, we have home depot and wall mart, whats happened in the water and fire damage areas is big franchises have come in and by what ever means, which IMO could very well involve bribery have taken over and become the ONLY vendor for that insurance company on a national level, service master and serv pro come to mind, the same thing has happened in other areas of the water and fire damage sector as well, as CARPET ONE has went and done the same thing as service master and serv pro and become the exclusive flooring supplier for certain insurance companies nationally. Home depot and lowes have also done the same thing with state farms PSP program, how does this affect yourself, because these people pose a direct threat to us independents, and some times crooked/unethical methods are brought to bear to insure that the insurance cronies are used for the work, independents not franchises have supported the big names in this industry like yourself, NOT THE FRANCHISES!!!
 

timnelson

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For a minute I was sure that Steve had created the world's longest run-on sentence. But he messed up and put a period there in the middle of it.

Anywho, I'm intrigued with the Carpet One talk. I will mystery shop one of their local dealers and see what they say about polyester.
 

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